shortstax this thread is full of moms who have struggled with this decision and what is right for their kid/family/lifestyle in terms of the parenting decisions around phones, and you’re comparing it to not physically protecting your kid from the #1 cause of death?
I think these are two very different things. I also think social lives of boys and girl tweens/teens are different.
You're totally right. I was too glib, as I was thinking about my 9 year old and how she's past the state law of boosters but it's "best" to keep her in one based on height. That wasn't conveyed at all in my post, so I apologize for those short words.
I do think mental safety is important though, and I don't know how we (as parents, and the greater we) assess that risk v. reward. It's such a struggle.
I am driving around with my 10 yo in a low back booster and I still don't let my 12 yo sit in the front because she hasn't reached skeletal maturity so maybe this post is just completely on brand for me???
I would get her a phone and I would get her a real phone. Doesn't have to be the latest model or anything like that but not a "baby" phone. Kids have to live in this world and being isolated is very hard. I remember that feeling of wanting Guess jeans so bad and my parents saying no. It sucks when you're 12 and it does feel like they're ruining your life.
My youngest is in middle school and he only knows one kid without a phone. It's absolutely hindering his social life. He has a watch but most kids in my area have moved to discord vs texting so having a watch doesn't help with communication.
His mom texted his friends from her phone to invite him to his birthday party and then kept sending texts as a way of communicating with his friends for him. It was so odd and I finally had to tell her that it's inappropriate for an adult to be texting my teenager. So, don't do that
Yes, kids are all on their phones if they have them and have an opportunity to be on it.
No, you are not ruining her life.
Our rule is that they will get one when it is necessary. Right now we are their transportation to everything, they don't get dropped off anywhere without us sticking around close by.
There are a host of other issues that come with access to the internet, texting, etc. Can she talk to her friends outside of school in some other way? Our kids like to call friends either on our phones or talk to them through gaming.
If she just feels awkward on the bus because everyone is on their phone then she could bring a book, I get the social anxiety at that age of not knowing how to just *be* when in public!
I suggested she read a book at lunch if everyone was on their phones and she thought I was nuts. She would probably be more willing to do it on the bus but alas she gets motion sickness so I'm not even sure she could be looking at a phone the whole ride without getting super queasy.
Post by plutosmoon on Mar 19, 2024 12:53:58 GMT -5
I don't think you are ruining her life, but I get how she would feel left out and for 12-13 years old girls, that's a tough thing to feel.
I got DD a phone when she was 10 at the start of 4th grade. DD struggles socially due to ASD, she will always be different, so if a phone helps her a bit socially I'm in, even if experts disagree.
I think most kids around here have phones by the end of 3rd grade. There is a serious lack of affordable (or really any) after school child care, so most kids are home alone after school by 3rd grade. Lots of split households around here too.
In my experience, there is very little difference between the phones abilities and an iPads abilities, so if you give your kid a tablet, might as well let them have the phone. You can lock down what you don't want them to use, and set screen limits pretty easily. I check the phone and iPad on a regular basis. My kid doesn't have any type of social media, other than messenger kids. I'm firm on that at 13+.
I don't know if we have data yet on "no phone" vs "dumb phone" vs "locked-down smartphone" vs "smartphone". I could believe that "locked-down smartphone" is still not great and you'd be better off with a flip phone that can send & receive pictures. But it's moot by high school -- there's school and/or extracurricular stuff that's organized on Discord etc.
This is the frustrating part. When you try to read about what is known about kids and phones most of the stuff out there is focused on the ills of social media. But what about a smartphone that can basically only call and text?
DD is also in 7th and I think it would be very difficult for her socially if she didn’t have a phone. At this point the kids make all the plans and adults just say yes/no/help execute.
Honestly I think a lot of it is personality dependent and for us it’s been fine. She follows my rules (airdrop off, restrictions after 9, and I can look anytime) no problem and has her own (she exits group chats she doesn’t know everyone in basically immediately and only gives her number to actual friends). Is she on her phone more than I’d like? Yes but the positives outweigh the negatives.
My DD is in 6th and we've had a very similar experience. It's honestly been fine. I was on the fence about getting one when she started middle school but I have no regrets.
ETA: No social media allowed. We will revisit after 8th grade but she knows very well that that just means that she isn't to even bother asking until then and that we will reevaluate at that point, it doesn't mean she'll get it.
She had an Apple Watch prior to the phone and texting on it was pretty useless.
I wasn't interested in a Bark phone or anything like that; I do not mind her having access to some games and apps. She was also getting my old phone (an 11) because I got a newer one for free. We just locked her iPhone down. For example, she can only receive calls/texts/FT from her contacts and she doesn't have the ability to add or delete her contacts, I do. I turned that off for the first 3 days of school only since she had just gotten the phone but then turned it back on. I have absolutely said no to adding some kids and she has actually used that as a way to get out of exchanging numbers with kids she doesn't want to exchange with.
She has a nice friend group but they aren't the popular group. I am glad that we held out long enough that she sort of saw all of the phone drama from the outside before she got one so was very uninterested in getting involved in any of that. It has been no drama for us.
My daughter is almost 10 and in 4th grade and has Gizmo that she tolerates just fine (for now), but wanted to chat with her school friends on a day off and we let her use an old iPhone to group chat and FaceTime. No access to internet or SM. It was 90% cute and harmless, but the other 10% was mean girl and drama. We ended the cell phone at home experiment after about 2 weeks but her attitude and behavior has SUCKED since then. I don’t think it’s all to do with the phone, but I do think it changed her in certain ways somehow. She realized that some kids stay on their phones for hours and do and say whatever they want with no consequences. The drama also carried over into school, which hasn’t helped.
I don't know if we have data yet on "no phone" vs "dumb phone" vs "locked-down smartphone" vs "smartphone". I could believe that "locked-down smartphone" is still not great and you'd be better off with a flip phone that can send & receive pictures. But it's moot by high school -- there's school and/or extracurricular stuff that's organized on Discord etc.
This is the frustrating part. When you try to read about what is known about kids and phones most of the stuff out there is focused on the ills of social media. But what about a smartphone that can basically only call and text?
After reading Officer Gomez, and Wait Until 8, it seems like phones such as Gabb, Bark, and Pinwheel are allowable before 8th. Parental controls are built in so there isn't much for the parent to set up, and kids can't get around them. They would be pretty similar to the watch option.
A locked down iPhone versus and a regular iPhone is probably more of a gray area depending on how well screen time is working, how well the parent knows how to set up and use parental controls etc. How much the kid tries to get around controls and many other factors. iPhone used to be more open but there are more controls now, so even the time period and which iPhone model plays into it. We don't have androids, but it seems like some parents like locking down Androids more than iPhones, but no personal experience there.
You're totally right. I was too glib, as I was thinking about my 9 year old and how she's past the state law of boosters but it's "best" to keep her in one based on height. That wasn't conveyed at all in my post, so I apologize for those short words.
I do think mental safety is important though, and I don't know how we (as parents, and the greater we) assess that risk v. reward. It's such a struggle.
I don't know, but we've long struggled with the stupid content of YouTube and then add in the skin care tutorials and finally DH has enough. Actually he also had enough when I was sitting next to DS for DS to do his homework and DS was on YouTube instead. I've also reached out to the school about blocking on computers but they don't do that because teachers use it for tutorials. DS has a long history of watching it in class. I checked his history and he watched a video entititled something like Explaining Only Fans to Kids, and it was terrible. Nothing pornographic, but terrible content, as an example. Now that we have this router in place we won't hesistate to block other things. We don't have an issue discussing versus blocking, but some things are addictive so the discussion doesn't work or the algorithms show them something even when we've discussed unhealthy content.
Once we start to see something become unhealthy is when we take steps, but I know some parents don't oversee it at all or don't know how to put in parental controls or don't think it's an issue. I'm not talking here on the board where we have discussed it many times, but for those that haven't really thought through their plan.
We also have blocked stuff at the router level with Disney circle, but if your kid has a phone it’s is utterly useless. They just hot spot the phone to get around both the phone restrictions and the router restrictions. It’s quite genius actually.
My oldest has ADHD (and therefore low impulse control. High addiction to screens, and hyper focus on things like getting around controls) and she taught me a thousand ways to get around all the parental controls and I was always 2 steps behind. Parenting in the digital age is no joke.
Yes, kids are all on their phones if they have them and have an opportunity to be on it.
No, you are not ruining her life.
Our rule is that they will get one when it is necessary. Right now we are their transportation to everything, they don't get dropped off anywhere without us sticking around close by.
There are a host of other issues that come with access to the internet, texting, etc. Can she talk to her friends outside of school in some other way? Our kids like to call friends either on our phones or talk to them through gaming.
If she just feels awkward on the bus because everyone is on their phone then she could bring a book, I get the social anxiety at that age of not knowing how to just *be* when in public!
I suggested she read a book at lunch if everyone was on their phones and she thought I was nuts. She would probably be more willing to do it on the bus but alas she gets motion sickness so I'm not even sure she could be looking at a phone the whole ride without getting super queasy.
Hahaha yeah I thought you might get that reaction! What about an audio book? Is there any functionality on her watch for storage and bluetooth?
I'm sure she doesn't care but someday she will have more advanced social and self regulation skills than her peers from being forced to survive without a phone!
I would get her a phone and I would get her a real phone. Doesn't have to be the latest model or anything like that but not a "baby" phone. Kids have to live in this world and being isolated is very hard. I remember that feeling of wanting Guess jeans so bad and my parents saying no. It sucks when you're 12 and it does feel like they're ruining your life.
My youngest is in middle school and he only knows one kid without a phone. It's absolutely hindering his social life. He has a watch but most kids in my area have moved to discord vs texting so having a watch doesn't help with communication.
His mom texted his friends from her phone to invite him to his birthday party and then kept sending texts as a way of communicating with his friends for him. It was so odd and I finally had to tell her that it's inappropriate for an adult to be texting my teenager. So, don't do that
This is super weird or as DD would say 'cringey.'
So cringey! She irritated the fuck out of me by saying that she "had" to because her kid wasn't ready for a phone. I responded that my kid isn't ready to text with adults.
I don't know, but we've long struggled with the stupid content of YouTube and then add in the skin care tutorials and finally DH has enough. Actually he also had enough when I was sitting next to DS for DS to do his homework and DS was on YouTube instead. I've also reached out to the school about blocking on computers but they don't do that because teachers use it for tutorials. DS has a long history of watching it in class. I checked his history and he watched a video entititled something like Explaining Only Fans to Kids, and it was terrible. Nothing pornographic, but terrible content, as an example. Now that we have this router in place we won't hesistate to block other things. We don't have an issue discussing versus blocking, but some things are addictive so the discussion doesn't work or the algorithms show them something even when we've discussed unhealthy content.
Once we start to see something become unhealthy is when we take steps, but I know some parents don't oversee it at all or don't know how to put in parental controls or don't think it's an issue. I'm not talking here on the board where we have discussed it many times, but for those that haven't really thought through their plan.
We also have blocked stuff at the router level with Disney circle, but if your kid has a phone it’s is utterly useless. They just hot spot the phone to get around both the phone restrictions and the router restrictions. It’s quite genius actually.
My oldest has ADHD (and therefore low impulse control. High addiction to screens, and hyper focus on things like getting around controls) and she taught me a thousand ways to get around all the parental controls and I was always 2 steps behind. Parenting in the digital age is no joke.
I know there is 100 different ways to get around things. They can also just do cellular probably. But for some reasons, my kids haven't gone there (yet), so we shall see.
I have a 7th grader who doesn't have a phone number. She does have my old Samsung S7 that she uses for Libby, kids messenger, and has an app for her tech watch and only works on wifi. School has an amazing no phone policy that they actually enforce. That hasn't stopped her from asking for a phone with a working phone number. She has gotten very picky saying it must be an iPhone because her friends all have iPhone and can't call or text the house phone because it isn't an iPhone. OMG I finally just said no and every time she asked I would keep extending my no.
By no way am I ruining her life and it is actually keeping some of the drama at bay because she isn't in the thick of group texts and social media. Her gym has a snapchat group and it is pretty crazy at times with the younger girls sending stuff at all hours. DD does say it hurts when people won't share stuff because you don't have TikTok or snapchat or insta but she is getting better at saying well I don't waste time scrolling through social media.
I suggested she read a book at lunch if everyone was on their phones and she thought I was nuts. She would probably be more willing to do it on the bus but alas she gets motion sickness so I'm not even sure she could be looking at a phone the whole ride without getting super queasy.
Hahaha yeah I thought you might get that reaction! What about an audio book? Is there any functionality on her watch for storage and bluetooth?
I'm sure she doesn't care but someday she will have more advanced social and self regulation skills than her peers from being forced to survive without a phone!
lol are you sure about that?! We all grew up without smartphones and a lot of us without the internet. I don’t see an abundance of social skills or self regulation skills anywhere!
Hahaha yeah I thought you might get that reaction! What about an audio book? Is there any functionality on her watch for storage and bluetooth?
I'm sure she doesn't care but someday she will have more advanced social and self regulation skills than her peers from being forced to survive without a phone!
lol are you sure about that?! We all grew up without smartphones and a lot of us without the internet. I don’t see an abundance of social skills or self regulation skills anywhere!
idk about you but I am excellent at talking to strangers on the internet
Did some of you not go to middle school? Because some of these posts are…out of touch for what it’s like for kids lol.
In what way? Legit curious, my oldest is in 1st grade so I have no horse in this race.
I dunno, no one post specifically, and I'm not saying anyone should do anything they believe is really harmful for their kids, but some are a little dismissive about how crushing feeling left out can be for kids in middle school.
In what way? Legit curious, my oldest is in 1st grade so I have no horse in this race.
I dunno, no one post specifically, and I'm not saying anyone should do anything they believe is really harmful for their kids, but some are a little dismissive about how crushing feeling left out can be for kids in middle school.
Different perspective: I’ve taught 6-8 grades for 25 years and have seen over and over again that 1) kids adapt, 2) having one good friend is enough and an easier world to navigate than trying to be cool or in and 3) parents bring a lot of our own insecurities about middle school and friendships into how we parent our kids.
Being left out sucks. but having a phone doesn’t guarantee acceptance (and can actually lead to kids feeling more isolated). It’s our job to help kids build resilience while holding onto our own parenting decisions. Not to say that we can’t change our minds but the OP is not ruining her child’s life by not giving them a cell phone before mom thinks kid is ready for it.
"Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.”
His mom texted his friends from her phone to invite him to his birthday party and then kept sending texts as a way of communicating with his friends for him. It was so odd and I finally had to tell her that it's inappropriate for an adult to be texting my teenager. So, don't do that
So this child doesn't have a phone and has to use the mom's phone to text the friends but you don't approve of this?
How is this phone-less child supposed to communicate with the friends?
His mom texted his friends from her phone to invite him to his birthday party and then kept sending texts as a way of communicating with his friends for him. It was so odd and I finally had to tell her that it's inappropriate for an adult to be texting my teenager. So, don't do that
So this child doesn't have a phone and has to use the mom's phone to text the friends but you don't approve of this?
How is this phone-less child supposed to communicate with the friends?
I'm trying to wrap my head around this.
No, you're misreading it. His mother was using her phone to text his friends on his behalf. The child was not involved in the texting.
IT WAS WEIRD! "Hi Owen, this is Holden's mom, are you available to play fortnight?" "Hi Owen, this is Holden's mom, do you want to hang out after school tomorrow?"
It really crossed some weird line for me. I could care less if the kid was texting from a parent's phone. I really am bothered by an adult making arrangements with my middle schooler. She should have either let her son text himself or reached out to me directly. She has my number.
So this child doesn't have a phone and has to use the mom's phone to text the friends but you don't approve of this?
How is this phone-less child supposed to communicate with the friends?
I'm trying to wrap my head around this.
No, you're misreading it. His mother was using her phone to text his friends on his behalf. The child was not involved in the texting.
IT WAS WEIRD! "Hi Owen, this is Holden's mom, are you available to play fortnight?" "Hi Owen, this is Holden's mom, do you want to hang out after school tomorrow?"
It really crossed some weird line for me. I could care less if the kid was texting from a parent's phone. I really am bothered by an adult making arrangements with my middle schooler. She should have either let her son text himself or reached out to me directly. She has my number.
Thanks for clarifying. Yes, she should have texted you directly.
Another plus to getting a phone in middle school is it gives them time to learn and adjust to the responsibility before high school. I had all the parental controls on dd’s phones but reluctantly took off some this year (9th grade), when on three separate occasions teachers told the students to download apps in class and she could not - because I had it set that she needed permission. I was on a work calls and didn’t see the notification the first 2 times this happened. She was so embarrassed when a teacher called her out for not completing the assignment and she said she was waiting for permission from me. Two of the apps were for fundraisers, the other was a tuner for music.
I’ll be honest, I would have been annoyed at those teachers. We’re super locked down about apps because H is a software developer and sees apps as really insidious (things like terms and conditions that allow the app unrestricted use of your microphone or camera even when the app isn’t in use or what they can/will do with your data) and avoid apps as much as we can. I wouldn’t be happy with teachers insisting my kid download an app without us having time to look at what it is and determine if we’re comfortable with it.
I would work on self esteem honestly. The group chats and texting aren't going to be nice and if she's this obsessed with fitting in I'd be worried about it.
I wholeheartedly agree. I do feel like she's trapped in some chicken and egg cycle where she isn't feeling confident because she doesn't have friendships that are as close as she would like but then she also feels like she is having trouble developing friendships without having a phone which then makes her feel less confident. The craziest part is that she's the most outgoing of my 3 kids by nature but middle school has really made her newly self conscious in a way she wasn't previously and nervous to put herself out there.
I was painfully shy at her age and moved to a new town where I knew no one over the summer in between 6th and 7th grade. So 7th and 8th were not the highlight years of my life lol and I don't have a good feel for how hard 7th is 'supposed' to be.
This is all so hard to navigate, for us and for them!!
Another plus to getting a phone in middle school is it gives them time to learn and adjust to the responsibility before high school. I had all the parental controls on dd’s phones but reluctantly took off some this year (9th grade), when on three separate occasions teachers told the students to download apps in class and she could not - because I had it set that she needed permission. I was on a work calls and didn’t see the notification the first 2 times this happened. She was so embarrassed when a teacher called her out for not completing the assignment and she said she was waiting for permission from me. Two of the apps were for fundraisers, the other was a tuner for music.
I know this is besides the point, but is it a school requirement to have a phone with app capability? I assume your child goes to a school where everyone is upper middle class and above?
I work with teens and there are a lot who don’t have smart phones. I can’t imagine requiring a child to download an app and then reprimanding them for not having such app. That’s fucked up. I would definitely talk to the teacher. But if the school requires everyone to have a functioning smart phone with unlimited access to apps then I guess that would make sense.
I dunno, no one post specifically, and I'm not saying anyone should do anything they believe is really harmful for their kids, but some are a little dismissive about how crushing feeling left out can be for kids in middle school.
Different perspective: I’ve taught 6-8 grades for 25 years and have seen over and over again that 1) kids adapt, 2) having one good friend is enough and an easier world to navigate than trying to be cool or in and 3) parents bring a lot of our own insecurities about middle school and friendships into how we parent our kids.
Being left out sucks. but having a phone doesn’t guarantee acceptance (and can actually lead to kids feeling more isolated). It’s our job to help kids build resilience while holding onto our own parenting decisions. Not to say that we can’t change our minds but the OP is not ruining her child’s life by not giving them a cell phone before mom thinks kid is ready for it.
Most Middle School teachers I know will say this. I don't know of any who say, "Phones are so great for kids' social lives!" Yes, it's nice for planning activities. But it's also frequently used for unkind messages, fights, gossip, etc. Many of my friends with MS girls say that there's more of the negative communications than actual scheduling of activities.
Everyone wants the best for their kids. Some listen to professionals, others listen to their inner middle schooler and peer pressure. Both for good reasons. We all do what we think is right, given the combination of lived experiences, perceived pros/cons, and information that we have on hand. Only time will tell who is actually making the right decisions here. (And I'd bet good money that the answer is different for each kid.)
DS is 13 and got his phone at age 12 the summer before he entered middle school. DD will do the same. We went over the rules and he had to sign a contract. You can google them to find sample ones on the internet. One thing we did was get unlimited data for the family so I never have to deal with policing his usage.
I do feel like if he didn't have an iPhone he would feel left out with his friends. It's annoying how they all play on their phones when they're together. But I've made my peace with it. I love that they make their plans without involving me.
I actually enjoy communicating via text with DS. We challenge each other with NYT chronological quizzes. I can easily remind him of things if he's out and about. We can argue and discuss things without getting too worked up sometimes.
It's easy to sit back and say my kid won't get a phone until a certain date, but middle school emotions and friend groups are really tough so I really don't want to handicap my kid in his social life. It's important to me because I didn't have the robust friend group in middle school and that carried over into high school.
Another plus to getting a phone in middle school is it gives them time to learn and adjust to the responsibility before high school. I had all the parental controls on dd’s phones but reluctantly took off some this year (9th grade), when on three separate occasions teachers told the students to download apps in class and she could not - because I had it set that she needed permission. I was on a work calls and didn’t see the notification the first 2 times this happened. She was so embarrassed when a teacher called her out for not completing the assignment and she said she was waiting for permission from me. Two of the apps were for fundraisers, the other was a tuner for music.
I know this is besides the point, but is it a school requirement to have a phone with app capability? I assume your child goes to a school where everyone is upper middle class and above?
I work with teens and there are a lot who don’t have smart phones. I can’t imagine requiring a child to download an app and then reprimanding them for not having such app. That’s fucked up. I would definitely talk to the teacher. But if the school requires everyone to have a functioning smart phone with unlimited access to apps then I guess that would make sense.
The school does not require phones but pretty much everyone has them. I imagine (hope!) the teacher only said something because she was sitting there with her iPhone out waiting for me to respond to the notification. It probably looked like she was just on the phone texrting instead setting up the tuner app for her instrument. Which is true, she was texting me asking me to approve it immediately.He apologized when she said she was waiting for me, but of course she was embarrassed.
I would love to see data that compares the instant messages and chat rooms of our generation with smart phones and kids of current generations. I'm betting that there would be a similar result with online bullying, self esteem, and mental health. You're just changing the platforms kids had access to.
And I'm also curious that if the mental health issues are because we're more in tune with the signs because we were there and no one got us help or told us to suck it up.
The change in mental health in just the last 10-20 years is a result of self awareness and not giving it a stigma. I'm not sure I would say it's because it exists more now than then.
I think as a parent, middle school is a really pivotol time for kids and that includes their own phone. I just wish there were more resources for parents and kids on internet safety and conversations to have. I feel like I'm saying the right things and trying to warn her of internet dangers on a near constant basis, but I'm not sure she's getting the message from me (either because she doesn't believe me or because I'm her uncool mom, etc).
Post by twilightmv on Mar 20, 2024 10:25:44 GMT -5
We got DS1 a phone when he started middle school. His friends all do have phones, and I'm glad he has one, as I feel more comfortable sending him to the park with his brother, or to activities, etc. I was worried about the dangers, but he already has an iPad and a computer, so phone hasn't been that much of an expansion in what he has access to. We have access to everything and have to approve all downloads.