Famous wolf killed outside Yellowstone

[ringstrue]

The scientists can expect to have more of these wolves killed if they aren't going to do anything about this situation on the ground. But the lines are so darn blurry in this situation. Aren't ranchers allowed to use the park to have their animals graze? Aren't there non-gun ways to keep wolves away from the non-park lands?

[Daria Morgandorffer]

My dad in MI called me in outrage the other day because he heard an NPR piece talking about wolves in the Upper Peninsula. Apparently, even though the wolfs are BARELY off the endangered species list, people are freaking out about them and trying to kill them all. There was someone talking on NPR in reaction to this saying that there were already laws on the books allowing people to shoot the wolves if they are threatening humans or livestock----or DEER. Motherfucking DEER AKA their natural prey.

[osulori]

I'm happy that wolf hunting in areas adjacent to YNP has been suspended for the time being...this kind of stuff makes me so sad. We only got to glimpse wolves in the wild when we were there for our HM in 2008 (but saw more at the bear and wolf sanctuary) and I really wish we'd gotten to see more of them even if it wouldve been from a distance.

[msmerymac]

Dec 11, 2012 19:37:54 GMT -5 ringstrue said:

The scientists can expect to have more of these wolves killed if they aren't going to do anything about this situation on the ground. But the lines are so darn blurry in this situation. Aren't ranchers allowed to use the park to have their animals graze? Aren't there non-gun ways to keep wolves away from the non-park lands?

If a wolf is threatening your livestock, by all means, either get it removed or kill it. But don't go on pre-emptive "wolf hunts" to decrease the overall population in your area just because they MIGHT decide to attack your cows.

[LoveTrains]

I read this in the NYT earlier this week and almost cried. I spent a summer in college working in YNP and spent many summer evenings out in Lamar Valley watching the wolves.

My understanding is that the wolf hunt has now been suspended in the areas surrounding YNP so at least for the rest of this winter season the wolves are safe. For now. Still sucks, though.

[osulori]

Dec 11, 2012 20:29:52 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Dec 11, 2012 19:37:54 GMT -5 ringstrue said:

The scientists can expect to have more of these wolves killed if they aren't going to do anything about this situation on the ground. But the lines are so darn blurry in this situation. Aren't ranchers allowed to use the park to have their animals graze? Aren't there non-gun ways to keep wolves away from the non-park lands?

If a wolf is threatening your livestock, by all means, either get it removed or kill it. But don't go on pre-emptive "wolf hunts" to decrease the overall population in your area just because they MIGHT decide to attack your cows.

:Y: According to the second article linked, in parts of Wyoming not bordering Yellowstone wolves can be shot on sight...whether they pose an immediate threat to humans or livestock or not.

[MrsAxilla]

:::side eye:::

They are wolves.

[LoveTrains]

Dec 11, 2012 20:34:43 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

:::side eye:::

They are wolves.

I am not sure what you are side-eyeing. Are you side eyeing that we are upset that these wolves are being brutally slaughtered?

[Daria Morgandorffer]

They're endangered throughout the entire world. I would rather not see wolves or any other species go extinct because of humans.

[emisi]

From the article:

Biologists say more than 80 wolves are still living in Yellowstone, a healthy population from the standpoint of species preservation. But that that number is likely to drop as hunting and trapping continue outside the park. So far this season, at least 87 wolves were shot in Montana, 120 were shot or trapped in Idaho and 58 were shot in Wyoming.

Holy shit. That's a lot of wolves shot! If there aren't many more than 80 left in the park, they just killed way more wolves than are left in Yellowstone. They're going to go extinct again if they keep that up.

[MrsAxilla]

I guess I'm just jaded. I'm dislike all hunting, but I don't get emotional about it. They also shoot buffalo that wander out of the park, you know.

[josieposy]

They opened up wolf hunting in MN this year. Well over 100 have been killed in Northern MN since the season started.

ETA: The state is capping it at 200.

[LoveTrains]

Dec 11, 2012 21:15:57 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

I guess I'm just jaded. I'm dislike all hunting, but I don't get emotional about it. They also shoot buffalo that wander out of the park, you know.

The are endangered and important to the ecosystem. There have been hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in the project over more than a decade - and there is a possibility now that the best pack might collapse.

I think it's pretty callous to side eye that. I actually don't have a problem with all hunting - but I do with the hunting of endangered animals that wander out of a man made border and that people have invested significant resources in.

[MrsAxilla]

Dec 11, 2012 21:57:40 GMT -5 LoveTrains said:

Dec 11, 2012 21:15:57 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

I guess I'm just jaded. I'm dislike all hunting, but I don't get emotional about it. They also shoot buffalo that wander out of the park, you know.

The are endangered and important to the ecosystem. There have been hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in the project over more than a decade - and there is a possibility now that the best pack might collapse.

I think it's pretty callous to side eye that. I actually don't have a problem with all hunting - but I do with the hunting of endangered animals that wander out of a man made border and that people have invested significant resources in.

They aren't endangered anymore. In fact, because they were protected, they became over populated in areas and threw the ecosystem out of whack. That's why you can hunt them again.

Packs collapse all the time. It's the circle of life.

[MrsAxilla]

I just don't see the same emotion for the buffalo or elk or any other species who is hunted without regard for their family structures. Why wolves? Yellowstone isn't freaking out about this.

[msmerymac]

Dec 11, 2012 23:37:26 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

I just don't see the same emotion for the buffalo or elk or any other species who is hunted without regard for their family structures. Why wolves? Yellowstone isn't freaking out about this.

There are tons and tons of elk and buffalo in Yellowstone. And neither are as high up in the ecosystem as wolves.

[MrsAxilla]

Dec 11, 2012 23:56:05 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Dec 11, 2012 23:37:26 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

I just don't see the same emotion for the buffalo or elk or any other species who is hunted without regard for their family structures. Why wolves? Yellowstone isn't freaking out about this.

There are tons and tons of elk and buffalo in Yellowstone. And neither are as high up in the ecosystem as wolves.

I don't understand what you mean. The ecosystem isn't a hierarchy.

[miesl]

It's a numbers thing, there are a lot of prey to a small number of predators. Taking out 1 wolf, especially an alpha, can cause the rest of the pack to fail. They rely on the alphas for hunting expertise, reproduction, etc. This means that even if this pack survives, it is less likely to have pups next year, and the population will decline. 10 bison from a herd of 500 is no big deal. One alpha from a pack of <10, big deal.

[MrsAxilla]

Ok, but Park scientists aren't really concerned, so I'm not either.

Maybe I should mention DH works with Park scientists on enviro projects, so I'm not talking totally out of my ass. I tend to defer to his opinion on these issues, I guess.

[Kattey]

I'm frustrated so I may be inarticulate. There are 80 wolves in YNP, 7 billion people in the world. We claim other species are over populated and need to be thinning but what about humanity? You don't see governments say "Whelp, there are too many people fucking shit up, gotta thin the herd..." and slaughtering people en mass for the sake of population control. Why should we do it to other species. I'm not a FEMA nut, and I have no real problem with hunting provided you use what you kill, however, this makes me ill.

[LoveTrains]

I think I am just very personally invested in the wolves. I spent a summer in YNP that was very difficult for me personally, and I just spent hours watching the wolves in the summer. It kept me sane. If you have never done it, you should. It is incredible. You can see the pack from the road in lots of places. There would always be a good group of people out on the road to Roosevelt taking pictures, etc. For me I feel like I have a personal connection with that Lamar Valley pack. It is just symbolic to me of the power of nature, the beauty of it, etc.

But something like that is hard to explain to someone who just doesn't seem to care about senseless slaughter. And it is perfectly senseless when the hunters are killing wolves that are not threatening their livestock. The data on the collar shows that the wolf rarely ventured out of the park. This particular wolf was not a threat at all.

But again, I admit I might be overly sensitive. I love animals. I get sad when I see roadkill. But this particular killing seems particularly heinous and awful to me.

[msmerymac]

Dec 12, 2012 0:04:06 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

Dec 11, 2012 23:56:05 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

There are tons and tons of elk and buffalo in Yellowstone. And neither are as high up in the ecosystem as wolves.

I don't understand what you mean. The ecosystem isn't a hierarchy.

I mean food chain. Buffalo and elk are herbivores, whereas wolves can control the population of other large animals, which are their prey.

[msmerymac]

Dec 12, 2012 0:04:06 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

Dec 11, 2012 23:56:05 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

There are tons and tons of elk and buffalo in Yellowstone. And neither are as high up in the ecosystem as wolves.

I don't understand what you mean. The ecosystem isn't a hierarchy.

I mean food chain. Buffalo and elk are herbivores, whereas wolves can control the population of other large animals, which are their prey.

[zelda25]

Dec 12, 2012 12:15:30 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Dec 12, 2012 0:04:06 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

I don't understand what you mean. The ecosystem isn't a hierarchy.

I mean food chain. Buffalo and elk are herbivores, whereas wolves can control the population of other large animals, which are their prey.

Exactly. Wolves are apex predators, which are pretty important to keep around. They keep the rest of the system in balance, and when you lose that, everything else goes to shit.

[MrsAxilla]

Dec 12, 2012 12:50:52 GMT -5 zelda25 said:

Dec 12, 2012 12:15:30 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

I mean food chain. Buffalo and elk are herbivores, whereas wolves can control the population of other large animals, which are their prey.

Exactly. Wolves are apex predators, which are pretty important to keep around. They keep the rest of the system in balance, and when you lose that, everything else goes to shit.

it works the other way, too. The wolves in YELL hunt elk (of course) but they've become so widespread that completely changed the elk's behavior. The elk population has significantly declined; they've been forced into less favorable habitats; their birth rates have declined; their migration routes have changed significantly, which impacts other species. For example, elk pressure on willow stands has decreased, which allows beavers to spread, which changes the water shed patterns as they build more dams, which affects fish and erosion and etc. etc. Also, wolves are now hunting coyotes, which no one anticipated. Wolves are spreading outside of their normal habitat to hunt coyotes, which in turn drives mountain lions outside of their natural habitats and into grassy areas, putting more pressure on elk. Also, coyotes repress foxes, and the decline of coyotes means the fox population has exploded, which means the hare and other populations are impacted. Etc. etc etc.

It's not as simple as killing wolves = bad. The reintroduction of wolves has been way more successful than anyone anticipated and now it's causing other problems. That's why hunting is now allowed.

[secretlyevil]

I hate people

[sangria]

Dec 12, 2012 13:50:35 GMT -5 secretlyevil said:

I hate people

Yeah, this pretty much sums it up for me.

[sangria]

Dec 12, 2012 13:49:15 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

Dec 12, 2012 12:50:52 GMT -5 zelda25 said:

Exactly. Wolves are apex predators, which are pretty important to keep around. They keep the rest of the system in balance, and when you lose that, everything else goes to shit.

it works the other way, too. The wolves in YELL hunt elk (of course) but they've become so widespread that completely changed the elk's behavior. The elk population has significantly declined; they've been forced into less favorable habitats; their birth rates have declined; their migration routes have changed significantly, which impacts other species. For example, elk pressure on willow stands has decreased, which allows beavers to spread, which changes the water shed patterns as they build more dams, which affects fish and erosion and etc. etc. Also, wolves are now hunting coyotes, which no one anticipated. Wolves are spreading outside of their normal habitat to hunt coyotes, which in turn drives mountain lions outside of their natural habitats and into grassy areas, putting more pressure on elk. Also, coyotes repress foxes, and the decline of coyotes means the fox population has exploded, which means the hare and other populations are impacted. Etc. etc etc.

It's not as simple as killing wolves = bad. The reintroduction of wolves has been way more successful than anyone anticipated and now it's causing other problems. That's why hunting is now allowed.

And this is why the exploding human population infringing so deeply into wilderness areas is a clusterfuck for everyone involved.

Maybe it's not as simple as killing wolves = bad, but it is as simple as humans spreading out at an alarming rate = bad for ecosystems