What do you think about homeschooling?

[bugabean]

How easy it is depends on the state, but yeah, some of them literally have no regulation at all, and I don't think that's right either.

[frlcb]

May 30, 2012 2:37:21 GMT -5 @publius said:

Am I wrong in assuming that there are times that parents need breaks for their own sanity?

You are not wrong. At all.

Signed,
The mom who just dropped her son off at summer school

[Deleted]

May 30, 2012 1:31:06 GMT -5 singingpilgrim said:

In publish school you learn how to get along in a situation where you're with 30 of your exact peers and one adult. In homeschool social education you learn how to get along and communicate with people older, younger, in formal roles, informal roles, etc. So to people used to public school socialization, the homeschooler appears awkward. But typically isn't not really better, it's just different. And actually, since the workplace isn't as divided by age and authority as much as public schools are, this can give a probably homeschooled child an edge to integrating into the public sector.

I don't know about schools in your area but the schools I attended had more than one adult teacher per class, since there's more than one subject to learn. I've had a different teacher for every subject and other than being each highly qualified to teach their individual subject they were different human beings with different life experiences and views of the world; which means that us students were exposed to a highly diversified environment. I don't see how a single parent, who has limited knowledge and is limited by his individual life experiences and personal characteristics, can possibly match such richness of perspectives, knowledges and interactions. This is JMO of course.

I think what Valerie meant when she mentioned the "confines of one's own home" is that even if you physically leave the house to go to a museum with your homeschooling parent/teacher you're still "confined" by the limits of this mono-culture/mono-perspective upbringing.
This would be of concern for someone who gave importance to multiculturalism, which isn't the case for everyone of course and that's fine!

I'm not sure what you mean by "public schools teach kids to fit in with the crowd". I don't remember ever having been taught to be average by any of my teachers, both in regular school and conservatory (I attended conservatory parallel to the last 2 years of HS). What is true is that the parents of average children would have had average children regardless of the teaching environment, IMO.

Also, you're assuming that your future children will be the fastest learning students under all circumstances and would just get bored sitting in school with the slow ones. If a student has to sit bored for 15 minutes in chemistry class so the rest can catch up, I'm inclined to think that the opposite would also be the case. When the others are done translating their passages of Giulio Cesare's "De Bello Gallico" from latin and the chemistry-gifted student is still working on his, they'll wait. This is something that happens in the working world, the studying world etc. and is among the numerous human circumstances I would want my child to be exposed to. The alternative would be to raise a lonely child, 'cause he's so fast no one can be around him. I'm very talented when it comes to foreign languages and sharing my class with other less talented students didn't stop me from becoming fluent in all the ones that were taught me. Same thing for solfeggio in conservatory.

This is all JMO!

[bugabean]

I read the 30 peers to one adult as meaning that at any given time when you're in class, there are approximately 30 people your age and one adult in the room, not that you only interact with the same 30 peers and the same one adult all day long. The point, as I understood it, was that this situation doesn't really happen outside of school. You never get put in a room with 30 people your age and one person significantly older who tells you what to do. The fact that you change classes for different subjects isn't really relevant to that point.

[Deleted]

I see, thanks for clarifying.
I must say though, I fail at seeing a problem with that scenario... It must be because I haven't perceived it as a limit.
I wouldn't reduce the role of a teacher to simply someone who tells you "what to do", but again, must be because of my positive experience with teachers.

[GilliC]

Public schools teach kids to fit in with the crowd, but also to stay there.

This is part of the goal for the Norwegian school system. They don't even give out grades until you're in something like 5th grade, because they don't want to encourage competition. The focus of the schooling is to encourage kids to be part of the group and work together, and thanks to Janteloven, no one should be standing out anyway!

[Cheesecake]

I wonder how much the fact whether you're against homeschooling or a fan or something in between has to do with the quality of schools where you
a: grew up yourself,
b: are located now/are planning to send your children.

While the Dutch schools keep getting worse and worse (the system is getting more and more adapted to American standards, unfortunately up 'til a few years ago, when you went to University you were expected to finish at LEAST 1 master's in 4 years. Now, after 4 years, you're expected to finish your Bachelor's and each Master's takes another year or 2. DH actually received 3 Masters 4 years after graduating high school - and he went to an internationally known Technical University.), the Dutch still score very high internationally at level of education. The US schools, on average, score insanely low for a first world country.

I absolutely realize there are differences per school and school district, but the National average is what it is.
I can totally see that if you grew up/live in a school district that scores on the low end in the US, your thoughts about education can be completely different than if you live near the prime schools in NL or Norway, South Korea (or the US) for that matter.

And regarding the 'just' comment I made before re: decent education. I do truly feel it is that easy. Spend enough money on education. I know the richest county in Colorado (one of the richest counties in the US) has 40 kids to a class and in the middle of winter they're not allowed to heat the classrooms above 60 (or even lower - a friend of mine was a teacher there) because the school can't afford it. The people just refuse to spend money on education. No wonder schools suck and people want to take their kids out of school.

So JUST spend more money, JUST make classes smaller, JUST make sure there are decent materials and properly educated teachers. It truly isn't that hard. Spending more money on public schools is still cheaper than sending kids to private schools, or giving up a job to SAH with the kids to school them.

[clickerish]

May 30, 2012 17:18:01 GMT -5 Cheesecake said:

I wonder how much the fact whether you're against homeschooling or a fan or something in between has to do with the quality of schools where you
a: grew up yourself,
b: are located now/are planning to send your children.

I think this is very true. I will be honest that my anti opinions are formed in part because I teach--and I figure with the amount of work I have to do to prove I am worthy of teaching one particular subject, it is ludicrous that any person who can give birth believes s/he is capable of teaching everything all alone. I'm far more tolerant of those who have co-op situations since they have a regulated curriculum, planned social interactions on a regular basis with others and so forth. They seem to be taking into account more factors, like that their child should learn how to play well with others, might sometimes benefit from other teachers and so forth.

My cousins who are homeschooled by a mother who couldn't finish high school, however, can't read well or do more than basic math. That, to me, is horrifying.

[bugabean]

May 30, 2012 17:18:01 GMT -5 Cheesecake said:

And regarding the 'just' comment I made before re: decent education. I do truly feel it is that easy. Spend enough money on education. I know the richest county in Colorado (one of the richest counties in the US) has 40 kids to a class and in the middle of winter they're not allowed to heat the classrooms above 60 (or even lower - a friend of mine was a teacher there) because the school can't afford it. The people just refuse to spend money on education. No wonder schools suck and people want to take their kids out of school.

So JUST spend more money, JUST make classes smaller, JUST make sure there are decent materials and properly educated teachers. It truly isn't that hard. Spending more money on public schools is still cheaper than sending kids to private schools, or giving up a job to SAH with the kids to school them.

I kinda feel like you made the same point I was making without knowing it. They AREN'T spending more money, making classes smaller, etc. It doesn't matter how easy it is in theory. It matters how easy it is in practice. And in practice, they aren't doing what needs to be done. When you have a child of school age, what matters is their education right now, not what the government could be providing if only they did what you wanted.

[bugabean]

May 30, 2012 15:45:01 GMT -5 @jewels6711 said:

I wouldn't reduce the role of a teacher to simply someone who tells you "what to do", but again, must be because of my positive experience with teachers.

Sorry. I can see how you could read it that way, but that wasn't what I was trying to get at. I have plenty of positive experiences with teachers. My own mother is a retired school teacher. My point was more that the environment in a school is basically something you only ever see at school.

I admit, I have mixed feelings about this as an argument against the traditional classroom environment, but it's an argument I've heard before. Everything from changing rooms when the bell rings, raising your hand to ask to pee, etc. is stuff you only do in school, whereas if you do your learning in the public sphere, you learn to navigate the same public sphere you'll be in later. Instead of socializing within the 'artificial' society of school, you socialize in 'real' society.

[bugabean]

May 30, 2012 16:12:29 GMT -5 GilliC said:

The focus of the schooling is to encourage kids to be part of the group and work together, and thanks to Janteloven, no one should be standing out anyway!

Yeah, I can't friggin stand Janteloven!!!

BTW, in most Danish schools, you not only don't change classmates for different subjects, you don't change them for different grade levels either. So you really are with the same 30ish kids the entire time you're in school, unless someone moves. About a year ago, one of the nearby schools was considering doing away with this and there was parental uproar. Yeah, this is one of the things I do not like about Danish schools.

[anna7602]

May 30, 2012 17:18:01 GMT -5 Cheesecake said:

I wonder how much the fact whether you're against homeschooling or a fan or something in between has to do with the quality of schools where you
a: grew up yourself,
b: are located now/are planning to send your children.

Or c: you really enjoy your "me" time away from your offspring. I'm Team Publius on this one. I do plenty of out-of-classroom learning with DD throughout the year- museums, nature hikes, etc.- but I love being able to drop her off at ballet class and at other activities, including school.

And the whole thing about people not thinking outside the box (sorry, that's not the exact quote) doesn't seem like it would apply to most of us on the IN board. Would we pick up and leave the comforts of our home country if we were really taught to just follow rules and not strike out for ourselves? I think that there are educational experiences that are definitely better than others, but I also think it's hard to generalize and that some things are what you make of them. Like Stellina said (oops, I mean Jewels), I was in classroom language classrooms with people who weren't advancing as quickly, but that didn't make me lose interest or not achieve fluency eventually.

[ninjatofu]

I think there is a time, place and level for it. But I don't think that the parent that takes their kid out for nature walks to collect leaves for science class will be as well prepared when it comes time to whip out the Bunsen burners and teaching actual science.

I also wonder about (about to lose some friends here, me thinks) what studies have been done to show the demographics and long term results of homeschooled kids. How many come from religious homes? What religions? Was this a motivating factor in the decision to homeschool? How many females vs male kids are typically homeschooled? What do female homeschooled children enter into as careers? How many go on to university and then post graduate education? Once entering under and post graduate education how well do they do against their peers?

Also, what is the social demographic of the parents of homeschooled children?

How many homeschooled kids enter into professions such as medical drs, law, politics, religious leadership, finance? How many enter blue collar professions vs white collar professions, and how many homeschooled girls become stay at home wives or mothers?

I just think its very interesting. Is it a trend that goes hand in hand with granola and organic pineapples? Is it a religious movement aimed to keep women submissive? Is it a luxury for the upper middle class dictated by helicopter parents? Or is it driven by a lack of satisfaction in public education?

Where is this most common? Not in Asia, where public education ranks highest for quality and results.

Just very curious.

[Cheesecake]

Tofu! You're not a jedi anymore?

I couldn't ever agree with you more than right now, I think!

[ninjatofu]

I lost the login details. I know. Jedi was way better.

[ninjatofu]

I'm still wondering about this. Also, what is the ratio of men to women homeschool teachers/parents and what are their average qualifications and life experiences?

[Waffles]

May 30, 2012 13:01:20 GMT -5 @jewels6711 said:

I think what Valerie meant when she mentioned the confines of one's own home; is that even if you physically leave the house to go to a museum with your homeschooling parent/teacher you're still confined by the limits of this mono-culture/mono-perspective upbringing.
This would be of concern for someone who gave importance to multiculturalism, which isn't the case for everyone of course and that's fine!

That's exactly what I meant!

[Deleted]

I was home schooled from 4th grad thru 12th. I'm all for it and would love to home school but DH isn't exactly on the same page.

Just want to add that the reason home schooling get's such a bad rap is because the people who treat it as an easy out and don't give their children the education they should receive. The ones who actually do a good job don't ever get talked about. Like anything out there.. bad get's discussed and the good is ignored for the most part.