Lawyers - Moving From BigLaw to SmallLaw

[genet313]

I'm a lurker turned poster, with another lawyer Q. Which seems appropriate, given the sheer number of lawyer Qs today!

I'm considering moving from big law to a small firm (corporate boutique). I know I can read all about the differences on the ATL, but I am curious to hear personal experiences, likes/dislikes, things about big law you miss, pros/cons, etc. Thanks!

[Deleted]

Congrats!

I'm still at a very big firm, but it can feel like a small firm because 90% of our attorneys are on other continents and we're pretty autonomous here NY office is 30-something attorneys, and I rarely work with other offices). For what it's worth, my analysis of my current situation versus the former:

Pluses: more responsibility, most people are very nice (and are very grateful biglaw expats), more autonomy, less structure.

Minuses: I MISS 24 HOUR WORD PROCESSING AND COPYING . Our support can be lacking overall. When secretaries leave for the day at 5:30, we're left alone. We're very specialized so I don't get work outside of my practice area, and sometimes I would like a case that isn't in this industry. If you don't like your coworkers, you're out of luck. Very few summer events. We're missing some formal programs like mentoring that I liked. Benefits aren't as good (though we get 401(k) safe harbor contributions, which is awesome).

Different but not a plus or minus: Not sure if this is normal, but we're very segmented here. We have like 6 practice groups, 5 of which are litigation (and the corporate group is 2 attorneys) and I don't ever work with any of the others (whereas at my old firm in theory I could have worked with all sorts of lit groups). So if I didn't like my department, I'd be out of luck.

[Deleted]

I have never been in BigLaw, so I dont really know, but I dont have a lot of stuff I imagine BigLaw to have. I dont even know what word processing and copying entails.

and every small law firm is different.

[Deleted]

Jan 9, 2013 15:47:47 GMT -5 jenny1980 said:

Jan 9, 2013 15:10:39 GMT -5 v said:

Very few summer events.

?

haha "summer events" aren't even in small law vocab.

[ESF]

Jan 9, 2013 15:45:08 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

I have never been in BigLaw, so I dont really know, but I dont have a lot of stuff I imagine BigLaw to have. I dont even know what word processing and copying entails.

and every small law firm is different.

Like you, I'm confused by this. But when my colleague came here from his big law job, I remember him being completely clueless about how a table of authorities is made. So when I have in my mind a room that you can go to an hour before your midnight ECF filing deadline and have someone put a TOA in your brief.

[Deleted]

Jan 9, 2013 15:51:23 GMT -5 ESF said:

Jan 9, 2013 15:45:08 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

I have never been in BigLaw, so I dont really know, but I dont have a lot of stuff I imagine BigLaw to have. I dont even know what word processing and copying entails.

and every small law firm is different.

Like you, I'm confused by this. But when my colleague came here from his big law job, I remember him being completely clueless about how a table of authorities is made. So when I have in my mind a room that you can go to an hour before your midnight ECF filing deadline and have someone put a TOA in your brief.

that's lovely.

I only get my assistant to do that if I am smart and actually have a brief done early. Otherwise, all me, baby.

[Deleted]

Jan 9, 2013 15:52:27 GMT -5 v said:

Jan 9, 2013 15:47:47 GMT -5 jenny1980 said:

?

I work at a very strange firm.

She was asking what the hell it was. Summer events are not in the everyday person's vernacular.

[Deleted]

Jan 9, 2013 15:51:23 GMT -5 ESF said:

Jan 9, 2013 15:45:08 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

I have never been in BigLaw, so I dont really know, but I dont have a lot of stuff I imagine BigLaw to have. I dont even know what word processing and copying entails.

and every small law firm is different.

Like you, I'm confused by this. But when my colleague came here from his big law job, I remember him being completely clueless about how a table of authorities is made. So when I have in my mind a room that you can go to an hour before your midnight ECF filing deadline and have someone put a TOA in your brief.

Word Processing is the wonderful 24 hour department where you send your documents to have changes put in, or to have them formatted better, or to have a few pages of scribbles turned into a PowerPoint presentation...

But my favorite thing they did was proofreading. Send them a brief of any length at any hour of the day, and a few hours later they'd send back a hand markup of all your stray periods and incorrect margins and whiches that should be thats and such.

[Deleted]

Jan 9, 2013 15:53:12 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

She was asking what the hell it was. Summer events are not in the everyday person's vernacular.

I thought she was asking about the whole thing -- I can't see bolding in quoted sections. Did she bold the part about summer events? Sorry jenny!

ETA: Cosmos, since it isn't responsive do you mind taking the description of the firm out of the reply? I get nervous about identifying my firm here

[kadams767]

I am small law, but I am so thankful to have amazing support staff. One thing I am always astounded by with other small firms is the amount that other lawyers do on their own. Things like copying, filing, mass email distribution of documents, changes, etc. all can and should be done by competent support staff and completely cut into billables and make days much longer than they should be. Even though most of my staff leaves by 5:30, there is always someone who will or can stay if needed, or is willing to do stuff at home.

If you are one to take advantage of BigLaw amenities like generous expense accounts, free meals and stuff like that, I would be prepared to lose most of that as well.

[Deleted]

Jan 9, 2013 16:04:37 GMT -5 jenny1980 said:

LOL. Yes, I am asking what "summer events" are.

Sorry, didn't see that.

As LS said, summer is the time to wine and dine the interns to show them how loved they are and how awesome their lives will be. We'd have big welcome and farewell events at the beginning and the end of the summer (at venues like The Plaza, the Hudson Hotel (probably my favorite one), the Rainbow Room, the Four Seasons). Throughout the summer the summer associates would have events a few times a week (typically including a Broadway show, a Yankees game, a booze cruise, a wine tasting, an all day country club outing, an outing at a partner's weekend home upstate, etc.). Some of those events were to get to know specific departments, but many included a lot of associates. In addition, associates were encouraged to take the summers out to fancy lunches and out for drinks. It is an awesome time when you find yourself saying "Sure, I'll go to lunch with you guys but do you mind if we don't go to Nobu? I was just there on Tuesday" or "Ugh, I can't believe they're having the farewell reception at the Mandarin Oriental. Our last event there blew."

In my current office we usually only have 2-3 summer associates, and we have very few events over the summer (and they're more firm outings than summer events).

[beachdweller]

I went big firm to in-house, so sort of similar. My big firm word processing department was awesome -- I could send or drop off edits at midnight, then have an awesome document waiting for me at 9 a.m. Also, the computer support was amazing -- 24 hour support with the push of a button. Up side of my new gig is, I've never stayed past 7, so would never need edits done overnight.

My H moved from biglaw to boutique small law (I guess everyone says their small firm is boutique!). His firm is basically like a group at a big firm. They have a couple of Fortune 100 clients that they do a specific type of litigation for. So, they still get to do cool work. It has really been a challenge to get good support staff though -- definitely not the caliber you get in biglaw.

[Deleted]

Boutique sounds better than small law. I use it when trying to develop business, but I dont bother on here.

[Bob Loblaw]

Who does the word processing at big firms? What is their educational background and how much do they get paid?

[Deleted]

Jan 9, 2013 16:14:28 GMT -5 beachdweller said:

My H moved from biglaw to boutique small law (I guess everyone says their small firm is boutique!). His firm is basically like a group at a big firm. They have a couple of Fortune 100 clients that they do a specific type of litigation for.

I haven't noticed the quality of the work I'm doing diminish. I'm actually in a kind of weird spot in that my practice group of 10 attorneys has 5 attorneys from my old firm, so I'm working with a lot of the same people I've been working with for years, doing work for the same clients. I'm very happy with that set-up. I like big messy cases that go on forever much better than the smaller ones.

[Deleted]

Jan 9, 2013 16:24:08 GMT -5 Bob Loblaw said:

Who does the word processing at big firms? What is their educational background and how much do they get paid?

No idea what they get paid, but I doubt it was all that great. The proofreaders seemed to be a lot of college educated struggling actors, but I'm not sure about the people who were doing the more straightforward word processing. Also, at my old firm at least there were a lot of temps particularly for the overnight shifts.

[Bob Loblaw]

Jan 9, 2013 16:27:47 GMT -5 v said:

Jan 9, 2013 16:24:08 GMT -5 Bob Loblaw said:

Who does the word processing at big firms? What is their educational background and how much do they get paid?

No idea what they get paid, but I doubt it was all that great. The proofreaders seemed to be a lot of college educated struggling actors, but I'm not sure about the people who were doing the more straightforward word processing. Also, at my old firm at least there were a lot of temps particularly for the overnight shifts.

So not a good backup career. Bummer.

[ESF]

Jan 9, 2013 16:25:53 GMT -5 v said:

Jan 9, 2013 16:14:28 GMT -5 beachdweller said:

My H moved from biglaw to boutique small law (I guess everyone says their small firm is boutique!). His firm is basically like a group at a big firm. They have a couple of Fortune 100 clients that they do a specific type of litigation for.

I haven't noticed the quality of the work I'm doing diminish. I'm actually in a kind of weird spot in that my practice group of 10 attorneys has 5 attorneys from my old firm, so I'm working with a lot of the same people I've been working with for years, doing work for the same clients. I'm very happy with that set-up. I like big messy cases that go on forever much better than the smaller ones.

Yeah, I think it's a misconception that coolness, prestige, and quality of work can only be found in Big Law.

In terms of benefits and swag, my firm is about as far as you can fall from big law, but I'm working on enough hot topics that I can regularly bill time I spend reading SCOTUSblog and other legal news sites as research.

[Deleted]

My path:
BigLaw --> MidLaw --> In-House

I moved to MidLaw because I thought I'd find a better quality of life. It turned out to be just as much work with a lower salary. Boo.

I am very happy in-house. I have a much better life and am still paid decently.

[genet313]

Jan 9, 2013 17:07:27 GMT -5 @misoangry said:

My path:
BigLaw --> MidLaw --> In-House

I moved to MidLaw because I thought I'd find a better quality of life. It turned out to be just as much work with a lower salary. Boo.

I am very happy in-house. I have a much better life and am still paid decently.

Miso, how MidLaw? My firm would be <20 attorneys. They have said people are billing btw 1800-2200, which is on track with what I bill most years now. Lower salary, but bigger bonus potential, plus they gave discretionary bonuses.

What I'm trying to get away from is inconsistency in hours - I can no longer handle billing 330 one month and 50 the next month (no joke, that happened this year, it was hell).

I can't stand the slow times and I feel like I can't breathe during the really bad times. I'm aiming for like 180-200 hours a month, which, in my eyes, is doable. I just want to make sure that's realistic at a small firm.

[genet313]

Jan 9, 2013 15:51:23 GMT -5 ESF said:

Jan 9, 2013 15:45:08 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

I have never been in BigLaw, so I dont really know, but I dont have a lot of stuff I imagine BigLaw to have. I dont even know what word processing and copying entails.

and every small law firm is different.

Like you, I'm confused by this. But when my colleague came here from his big law job, I remember him being completely clueless about how a table of authorities is made. So when I have in my mind a room that you can go to an hour before your midnight ECF filing deadline and have someone put a TOA in your brief.

So....if I don't know how to create my own table of contents in an agreement....I should be worried? B/c I don't do pretty much any of my own formatting.

Do people bill for the time they are spending formatting stuff?

[ESF]

Jan 9, 2013 17:22:40 GMT -5 genet313 said:

Jan 9, 2013 15:51:23 GMT -5 ESF said:

Like you, I'm confused by this. But when my colleague came here from his big law job, I remember him being completely clueless about how a table of authorities is made. So when I have in my mind a room that you can go to an hour before your midnight ECF filing deadline and have someone put a TOA in your brief.

So....if I don't know how to create my own table of contents in an agreement....I should be worried? B/c I don't do pretty much any of my own formatting.

Do people bill for the time they are spending formatting stuff?

I format as I go. When I am drafting the document and write the section heading, I take 3 seconds to fix the format. I do not stop the clock to do that. Most of the time, I just pull a brief I did before and work from that, so I don't actually do any formatting.

For TOAs -- I create those while proofreading, editing, and double checking my bluebooking. Most of the time, I've cut and pasted at least a portion of the brief from another one, so the cases are already coded and ready to go.

I'm contingency though so I have no idea what's normal in places were someone actually gets the bill.

[ESF]

Jan 9, 2013 17:21:40 GMT -5 genet313 said:

Jan 9, 2013 17:07:27 GMT -5 @misoangry said:

My path:
BigLaw --> MidLaw --> In-House

I moved to MidLaw because I thought I'd find a better quality of life. It turned out to be just as much work with a lower salary. Boo.

I am very happy in-house. I have a much better life and am still paid decently.

Miso, how MidLaw? My firm would be <20 attorneys. They have said people are billing btw 1800-2200, which is on track with what I bill most years now. Lower salary, but bigger bonus potential, plus they gave discretionary bonuses.

What I'm trying to get away from is inconsistency in hours - I can no longer handle billing 330 one month and 50 the next month (no joke, that happened this year, it was hell).

I can't stand the slow times and I feel like I can't breathe during the really bad times. I'm aiming for like 180-200 hours a month, which, in my eyes, is doable. I just want to make sure that's realistic at a small firm.

I am in a firm of less than 10. I billed over 200 from May-August (two months were over 250), and less than 80 in September and October. I rarely bill a 30-40 hour week. It's either 20 or 60.

Inconsistency in hours is alive and well in small law. I would say that it's probably even worse because there's fewer cases and fewer people, so the peaks and lulls are even more pronounced.

[Deleted]

Jan 9, 2013 17:22:40 GMT -5 genet313 said:

So....if I don't know how to create my own table of contents in an agreement....I should be worried? B/c I don't do pretty much any of my own formatting.

Do people bill for the time they are spending formatting stuff?

I have no idea how to do a TOA or TOC, so my secretary (or in the case of a TOA, sometimes a paralegal) still takes care of that. I doubt any lawyer at my firm knows how to do that, so don't worry! The only thing is that I need to get the document to her during her normal working hours (or make her stay, though if a brief is not in TOA-able shape by 5:30, she's probably going to be staying late that night on other brief-related things anyway).

I did learn to fill out a (hand-written) FedEx label recently. So I did gain some independence in 2012. Maybe this year I'll learn how to do one of the online FedEx labels.

[Deleted]

Jan 9, 2013 17:29:07 GMT -5 ESF said:

Jan 9, 2013 17:22:40 GMT -5 genet313 said:

So....if I don't know how to create my own table of contents in an agreement....I should be worried? B/c I don't do pretty much any of my own formatting.

Do people bill for the time they are spending formatting stuff?

I format as I go. When I am drafting the document and write the section heading, I take 3 seconds to fix the format. I do not stop the clock to do that. Most of the time, I just pull a brief I did before and work from that, so I don't actually do any formatting.

This.

I never format from scratch, ever. Every brief or letter I could write has already been written and its in the bank. My assistant will finalize formatting, add addresses, etc, after I finish the content.

I don't bother with the TOA 99% of the time, because I really hate doing them, so I just make sure I leave time so my assistant can do it. But there have been times I've been stuck.

[Deleted]

Jan 9, 2013 17:21:40 GMT -5 genet313 said:

Jan 9, 2013 17:07:27 GMT -5 @misoangry said:

My path:
BigLaw --> MidLaw --> In-House

I moved to MidLaw because I thought I'd find a better quality of life. It turned out to be just as much work with a lower salary. Boo.

I am very happy in-house. I have a much better life and am still paid decently.

Miso, how MidLaw? My firm would be <20 attorneys. They have said people are billing btw 1800-2200, which is on track with what I bill most years now. Lower salary, but bigger bonus potential, plus they gave discretionary bonuses.

What I'm trying to get away from is inconsistency in hours - I can no longer handle billing 330 one month and 50 the next month (no joke, that happened this year, it was hell).

I can't stand the slow times and I feel like I can't breathe during the really bad times. I'm aiming for like 180-200 hours a month, which, in my eyes, is doable. I just want to make sure that's realistic at a small firm.

Main office had 100 attorneys. Two satellite offices with 30 each.

Talk to associates whom you can trust at the new firm, if there are any. Better yet, talk to people who have left that firm.

[genet313]

Jan 9, 2013 17:49:09 GMT -5 @misoangry said:

Jan 9, 2013 17:21:40 GMT -5 genet313 said:

Miso, how MidLaw? My firm would be <20 attorneys. They have said people are billing btw 1800-2200, which is on track with what I bill most years now. Lower salary, but bigger bonus potential, plus they gave discretionary bonuses.

What I'm trying to get away from is inconsistency in hours - I can no longer handle billing 330 one month and 50 the next month (no joke, that happened this year, it was hell).

I can't stand the slow times and I feel like I can't breathe during the really bad times. I'm aiming for like 180-200 hours a month, which, in my eyes, is doable. I just want to make sure that's realistic at a small firm.

Main office had 100 attorneys. Two satellite offices with 30 each.

Talk to associates whom you can trust at the new firm, if there are any. Better yet, talk to people who have left that firm.

Thanks, that is helpful. I'm hearing from the associates that if there is an active deal, people stay late, but not crazy. When I asked about a dinner policy, they said they didn't have one b/c people rarely stay past 9 PM. I feel like that is a good sign?

One associate I talked to was complaining b/c she had to stay to 11 a few days in December to close a deal. This is more of the lifestyle I've had in mind.

I can't seem to find anyone who's left, unfortunately, but I'll try!

[genet313]

Jan 9, 2013 15:40:12 GMT -5 @esquirefish said:

I went from Biglaw to Small-law BACK to Biglaw (I started off in small law as a first and second year associate then moved up for a while too).

Why I initially moved from big to small - I wanted more responsibility for my deals, a better shot at making partner, a closer-knit atmosphere.

Why I moved back to Biglaw - I didn't necessarily get more responsibility, I still had to answer to one main partner who ran EVERYTHING and wouldn't let you make one move without ok-ing it. And the deals were smaller and not as exciting. Once I got there I realized that almost no one made partner, and things I had been told in my interview were a joke. There was no way to check stats online because the firm was too small. And the support staff was abysmal (they just didn't care half the time). I found a Biglaw group that operated like a small law group, but with the big amazing deals, lots of senior associate responsibility, training, advancement opportunities, and amazing support staff.

Conclusion - it isn't necessarily the size of the firm, it is the group you work for within the firm.

Thanks for this honest advice. I'm less worried about partner prospects than hours at this point, honestly. Were your hours better than expected? Better than biglaw?

[genet313]

Jan 9, 2013 17:34:08 GMT -5 ESF said:

Jan 9, 2013 17:21:40 GMT -5 genet313 said:

Miso, how MidLaw? My firm would be <20 attorneys. They have said people are billing btw 1800-2200, which is on track with what I bill most years now. Lower salary, but bigger bonus potential, plus they gave discretionary bonuses.

What I'm trying to get away from is inconsistency in hours - I can no longer handle billing 330 one month and 50 the next month (no joke, that happened this year, it was hell).

I can't stand the slow times and I feel like I can't breathe during the really bad times. I'm aiming for like 180-200 hours a month, which, in my eyes, is doable. I just want to make sure that's realistic at a small firm.

I am in a firm of less than 10. I billed over 200 from May-August (two months were over 250), and less than 80 in September and October. I rarely bill a 30-40 hour week. It's either 20 or 60.

Inconsistency in hours is alive and well in small law. I would say that it's probably even worse because there's fewer cases and fewer people, so the peaks and lulls are even more pronounced.

Damn, this is not what I wanted to hear. I wasn't expecting perfection, but I was hoping for slightly more consistency. Are you at least happy in small law?

[ESF]

Jan 9, 2013 18:05:08 GMT -5 genet313 said:

Jan 9, 2013 17:34:08 GMT -5 ESF said:

I am in a firm of less than 10. I billed over 200 from May-August (two months were over 250), and less than 80 in September and October. I rarely bill a 30-40 hour week. It's either 20 or 60.

Inconsistency in hours is alive and well in small law. I would say that it's probably even worse because there's fewer cases and fewer people, so the peaks and lulls are even more pronounced.

Damn, this is not what I wanted to hear. I wasn't expecting perfection, but I was hoping for slightly more consistency. Are you at least happy in small law?

I haven't ever worked in big law, so I have nothing to compare it to. But, I've come to the conclusion that I need to be politically and ideologically aligned with my work to be happy, so I probably would hate big law and they would hate me. Whenever I read some of the stuff my big law opposing counsel writes, I realize that I'm way too much of a true believer to go work for The Man.

But I don't mind the hours fluctuations -- to be honest, I prefer them. But I work from home, so i can do laundry and grocery shop when I've got nothing to do, and can sit around in my pajamas with my dog on my lap when I'm doing a table of authorities.