Why you should not go to law school

[Deleted]

Feb 19, 2013 10:38:24 GMT -5 Kore said:

$50/hr is still a lot of money. More than most people with post-grad degrees earn.

Yeah, $50/hr still grosses you $100K if you work 40 hours/week and take two weeks of vacation a year.

I have a doctoral degree and make maybe $30/hour. This is taking into account school breaks.

[Deleted]

So now it's you won't cry a river? The original post was that you won't feel sorry for anyone with student loans.

I'm not asking anyone to cry me a river. Hell, I'm doing pretty OK. Doesn't mean the situation doesn't still piss me off.

I feel a TON of sympathy for people who graduated recently and who are struggling to get by because the cost of education hasn't kept up with starting wages. I can't even imagine what it was like to start college in 2006, 2007, 2008, and then graduate into the shithole that was the economy 4 years later.

[Deleted]

Feb 19, 2013 11:15:21 GMT -5 papiercherri said:

Feb 19, 2013 11:00:59 GMT -5 @angryharpy said:

Oh give me a fucking break.

I was talking to H about this yesterday. I feel like we are being punished for doing the "right" thing. Banks are making money hand over fist on my federal student loans, with their 6.32% interest rate. ON A VIRTUALLY RISK-FREE INVESTMENT! Meanwhile, people are getting mortgages at 3% AND get to write that interest off on their taxes. I get to write off a measly $2500 of my student loan interest. But I can't afford to get a damn mortgage because of said student loans. And last I checked, it wasn't the student loan crisis that sent the economy into a downard spiral. Had I graduated a year earlier and been able to consolidate my loans then, they would be multiple percentage points lower. I did what I was "supposed" to do - I went to a good professional school, I worked hard, I didn't buy a house I couldn't afford, and I pay more in both loan interest and taxes than someone doing the exact same job as me who happened to have been born 2 years earlier. Forgive me if I think people in this situation deserve a little sympathy from time to time.

As for the article, I think it has a lot of good points. Whether billing 2,000 hours is hard can depend on so many factors - the type of work you have, the amount of work you have, what kind of support system you have to take care of your non-work responsibilities. I made such crap money for such pathetic pay at my firm. If I had only had to work the hours I billed, I would have been grossing $30/hour. And honestly, while the article may talk in the context of BigLaw, knowing that the majority of people don't make that kind of money DOES make it really depressing.

Nah, no fucking break.

Of course it sucks.  Lots of things in life suck.  You still made the choice to take out the student loans.

I'm not saying you didn't work hard, or you did everything wrong, or that you never ever deserve any sympathy, I'm saying I'm not going to cry anyone a river over the choice they made.

She's not asking you to cry her a river but to just acknowledge the f'd up political dynamics at work here with the transfer of wealth from the younger generation to the older via taxes, high interest rates, and credits.

[Deleted]

Feb 19, 2013 11:19:39 GMT -5 @msstarry said:

I think the 200k salary with 8 hour days is exactly what people are banking on going to law school. I think this is rather rare.

Um... no.  I know a ton of current and former biglawyers, and I can tell you with confidence that we were all scared shitless when we went in for our summer associateships/first days as first years about what our biglaw lives would be like, because anyone who knows anything about biglaw (and people going into biglaw have done enough research to land that job) knows that it isn't an 8-hour-day kind of job.  At all.  My expectation was that I'd be working past midnight most days and every weekend and would be cancelling every vacation I ever planned.  Luckily it isn't that bad.

A lot of people dream of eventually landing cushy in-house job with $200k salary for 8 hour days, but know that that usually only comes after years of slaving away in biglaw.

[scout8]

I know this doesn't add much to the conversation, but I HATED having to bill hours. HATED it! I lasted a little over two years as an attorney. That was all I could take. I work more hours as a real estate agent, but it feels completely different, because I don't have to track it.

[Deleted]

Feb 19, 2013 11:22:57 GMT -5 @lcap said:

She's not asking you to cry her a river but to just acknowledge the f'd up political dynamics at work here with the transfer of wealth from the younger generation to the older via taxes, high interest rates, and credits.

Ding ding ding!

It would be nice if the response to situations like mine (and I mean globally, not mine specifically) were, "Wow, what systems contributed to this mess and what should we do to ensure that future generations are not getting financially fucked?" instead of, "Welp, shouldn't have taken out those loans! Sucks to be you!"

[vanillacourage]

Isn't Tucker Max going to hell? I wouldn't worry too much about what he says.

[Deleted]

Feb 19, 2013 11:22:18 GMT -5 @angryharpy said:

So now it's you won't cry a river? The original post was that you won't feel sorry for anyone with student loans.

I'm not asking anyone to cry me a river. Hell, I'm doing pretty OK. Doesn't mean the situation doesn't still piss me off.

I feel a TON of sympathy for people who graduated recently and who are struggling to get by because the cost of education hasn't kept up with starting wages. I can't even imagine what it was like to start college in 2006, 2007, 2008, and then graduate into the shithole that was the economy 4 years later.

I completely agree with your posts. I feel the same way. Taking out student loans are a choice, but what was the alternative - not get a degree? Or leave with just a bachelor's and make $10 an hour?

In order to have a "good" job these days, it seems you need an advanced degree, and an advanced degree comes with a high price tag, high interest, and doesn't even ensure a good salary. I feel very fortunate to make my salary when I compare myself to my sisters, one of whom is a waitress with a bachelor's and the other of whom works in event planning for $10 an hour. Neither much (if anything) in the way of benefits, and my sister with the $10 an hour job also has a pile of student loans. So I feel lucky, but also angry that this is the best we could all do. Our parents did the best they could to help us pay for education, we all worked part time during college, and we still didn't come out without loans OR with a high paying job. No need to cry for us, but acting like we made poor choices is kind of insulting. 

[h]

Feb 19, 2013 11:24:51 GMT -5 v said:

Feb 19, 2013 11:19:39 GMT -5 @msstarry said:

I think the 200k salary with 8 hour days is exactly what people are banking on going to law school. I think this is rather rare.

Um... no.  I know a ton of current and former biglawyers, and I can tell you with confidence that we were all scared shitless when we went in for our summer associateships/first days as first years about what our biglaw lives would be like, because anyone who knows anything about biglaw (and people going into biglaw have done enough research to land that job) knows that it isn't an 8-hour-day kind of job.  At all.  My expectation was that I'd be working past midnight most days and every weekend and would be cancelling every vacation I ever planned.  Luckily it isn't that bad.

A lot of people dream of eventually landing cushy in-house job with $200k salary for 8 hour days, but know that that usually only comes after years of slaving away in biglaw.

I agree.  I didn't know anyone in law school who thought they would make $200K with 8 hour days, and I went to a top law school and graduated when the market was still strong.  I do have quite a few friends from law school who are now making $200K+ with semi-reasonable hours, but they have impressive academic credentials, put in years in big law to get there, and have been practicing for nearly a decade. 

The sad thing is, even the people I know with the "good" law jobs generally don't love practicing law. I know a lot of exceedingly well-paid attorneys who still wish they had never gone to law school. Heck, I make more than $140K with a 1500 hour requirement in an MCOL city and don't have student loans, and I am still frustrated with my job, even knowing I am one of the really lucky ones.  I can only imagine how much it has to suck to bill 2000 hours a year for not-so-great money. 

[ESF]

Feb 19, 2013 11:28:49 GMT -5 @gypsy said:

I have student loans. I understand that the price of higher education has skyrocketed (and that it sucks), but it was absolutely my decision to take out the loans. Even if it were interest-free, it's a huge decision to take out mortgage-sized student loans. And, it's not like once upon a time you could write off more than $2500 or file BK on them (or be guaranteed decent employment). It sucks, but the rules are clear.

Just because there are clear rules doesn't make those rules logical or good. There is lots of evidence that the rising cost of education plus stagnant wages is resulting in slowed retirement savings, a decrease in population growth, and lower rates of home ownership. Simply put, people can't afford to do these things at age 25 or 30 in the same rates thy were a decade ago. So these personal choices are having an impact on the country as a whole. I know this board loves to point and laugh at the dummies who weren't MM masters at age 20, but people are kidding themselves if they think these private choices aren't also hurting them.

Student loans are a significant factor in the continued economic slump. Dismissing them as private choices doesn't make that statement less true.

[Kore]

Feb 19, 2013 11:37:13 GMT -5 @gypsy said:

cosmos- could you become a legal secretary? That might be more manageable, while still in your field.

This is an interesting suggestion. Didn't BrideEmily make like $70k 5 years ago as a legal secretary?

[kadams767]

Feb 19, 2013 10:56:59 GMT -5 rupertpenny said:

Feb 19, 2013 10:45:19 GMT -5 @chloe77 said:

You can make a lot of money (at least compared to the average person who makes between maybe 30k and 90k?) if you have a law degree.  I didn't go to a top school or work for a top firm, I went to a state school, had a less expensive education, work in house at a large global company and make 200k with 8 hour work days and a wonderful quality of life.  ALL my friends from law school are making over 150k, and in my book, that's pretty good.  Especially in light of the recent threads about how normal people make 45k or whatever it is.  Chances are, if you go to law school, you will make more money than you would have if you didn't.  Not everyone has to deal with billable hours.  The law school bashing makes no sense to me. 

I'm curious how long you have been out of law school. My H is a lawyer and so are all of his friends, he went to a top 30 school and has been out for 5 years and I can think of one of his friends that even makes 6 figures, much less 150K and this is a friend from college who went to a top 14 school. So they haven't been practicing very long, but there is no way in hell they will all be making 150k in ten, or even 20 years. Almost all of them regret law school. 

I can't speak for Chloe77, but I think her point was just that not all lawyers are in this position. I fully acknowledge that I've been very fortunate, but I am one of them. I don't love my job everyday, but I'm doing alright and probably better than a lot of people in my city and circle of friends.

I don't make $150k and I am not sure if I will stay around long enough to ever hit that mark.  But, the upside of my personal situation, is that I don't have to.  I have been practicing for 5 years.  I went to a state school and graduated with manageable loans.  I work for a small firm in a low to MCOL area.  I typically bill between 1700-1800 hours per year.  I usually work 9-10 hour days in the office when I'm not traveling, another hour or so at home, a few hours on weekends, and I take several weeks of vacation each year.  I made almost exactly $100k last year.  My quality of life is pretty good.  I don't think I would trade this for BigLaw hours or money at this point in my career. 

[Deleted]

Feb 19, 2013 11:37:13 GMT -5 @gypsy said:

cosmos- could you become a legal secretary? That might be more manageable, while still in your field.

um what?

Take a step back and think about what you just wrote so I don't have to write anything that can be construed as offensive to those who are secretaries (who I greatly respect and rely upon).

[Deleted]

Feb 19, 2013 11:38:24 GMT -5 Kore said:

Feb 19, 2013 11:37:13 GMT -5 @gypsy said:

cosmos- could you become a legal secretary? That might be more manageable, while still in your field.

This is an interesting suggestion. Didn't BrideEmily make like $70k 5 years ago as a legal secretary?

she is a paralegal, not a secretary.

I don't recall her earning that much, but the paralegals in my firm do not.

[nevermind]

Feb 19, 2013 11:31:04 GMT -5 @buckybells said:

Feb 19, 2013 11:22:18 GMT -5 @angryharpy said:

So now it's you won't cry a river? The original post was that you won't feel sorry for anyone with student loans.

I'm not asking anyone to cry me a river. Hell, I'm doing pretty OK. Doesn't mean the situation doesn't still piss me off.

I feel a TON of sympathy for people who graduated recently and who are struggling to get by because the cost of education hasn't kept up with starting wages. I can't even imagine what it was like to start college in 2006, 2007, 2008, and then graduate into the shithole that was the economy 4 years later.

I completely agree with your posts. I feel the same way. Taking out student loans are a choice, but what was the alternative - not get a degree? Or leave with just a bachelor's and make $10 an hour?

In order to have a "good" job these days, it seems you need an advanced degree, and an advanced degree comes with a high price tag, high interest, and doesn't even ensure a good salary. I feel very fortunate to make my salary when I compare myself to my sisters, one of whom is a waitress with a bachelor's and the other of whom works in event planning for $10 an hour. Neither much (if anything) in the way of benefits, and my sister with the $10 an hour job also has a pile of student loans. So I feel lucky, but also angry that this is the best we could all do. Our parents did the best they could to help us pay for education, we all worked part time during college, and we still didn't come out without loans OR with a high paying job. No need to cry for us, but acting like we made poor choices is kind of insulting. 

There are lots of alternatives.  I have a bachelor's and master's and never had student loans.  I went to a cheaper state school for my bachelor's and paid cash working a couple part time jobs.  When I left with just my bachelor's I got a job that paid $50K per year and let them pay for my master's.  

My parents drilled it into me that student loans were bad and I'm grateful for that.  If I hadn't been able to cash flow it as a full time student, I would have rather slowed down my degree and taken some time to save some money.

[Deleted]

Feb 19, 2013 11:35:08 GMT -5 @gypsy said:

Feb 19, 2013 11:31:04 GMT -5 @buckybells said:

I completely agree with your posts. I feel the same way. Taking out student loans are a choice, but what was the alternative - not get a degree? Or leave with just a bachelor's and make $10 an hour?

In order to have a "good" job these days, it seems you need an advanced degree, and an advanced degree comes with a high price tag, high interest, and doesn't even guarantey a good salary. I feel very fortunate to make my salary when I compare myself to my sisters, one of whom is a waitress with a bachelor's and the other of whom works in event planning for $10 an hour. Neither much (if anything) in the way of benefits, and my sister with the $10 an hour job also has a pile of student loans. So I feel lucky, but also angry that this is the best we could all do. Our parents did the best they could to help us pay for education, we all worked part time during college, and we still didn't come out without loans OR with a high paying job. No need to cry for us, but acting like we made poor choices is kind of insulting. 

If papier's comments were offensive, then this is the pendulum swinging the other way.

Options:
1. persist for a job that pays more than $10 with a bachelor's. They are out there.
2. work two jobs?
3. go to school PT, go to state school, go to a cheaper college...

The only choice isn't expensive loans or $10/hour. Come on.
 

Have you tried looking for a job as a new graduate lately? It's nearly impossible. I'm not saying it is necessary to take out 100k in student loans for a $10 an hour job, but even the more average amount of 25k results in a few hundred dollars a month in loan payments, especially when your interst rate is in the 6% range.

I went to state schools for both undergrad and graduate school. It still costs 5-10k a year to do that, plus living expenses. Figure 6 years of tuition (at a minimum) for both of those and you're looking at 30-60k. Which isn't a ton of money in the grad scheme of things, but certainly limiting when you have a few hundred dollar a month loan payment and can't find a job that supports that plus all the other monthly expenses a young professional has.


Again, I'm fortunate that I can afford my $340 a month payment (for the next 22 years...) but now that I'm facing living on 1 income, it's going to be really tight when that payment plus the average cost of rent in an apartment in the area I live is already more than half my monthly take home. I just think it's unfortunate that the loans were taken out in a better economy with the promise of a better ROI than I've seen, and now my mortgage and car loan are both at much lower rates than my student loans (and I was able to deduct about 3x as much mortgage interest than SL interest on my taxes!).

[Deleted]

I'm going to lunch. I fully expect this thread to be four pages by 1 pm EST. Go MM go!

[Deleted]

Gah. I suck at quoting in the new format. I'm responding to @gypsy saying go part-time, go to a state school, go to a cheaper college, etc...


In the context of the OP, though, this isn't necessarily applicable to law school.  Many many many of the prestigious, well-compensated jobs are only offered to people who attend a very small set of (very expensive) schools. Very few top law schools have part-time programs. Good state schools are not necessarily cheap - I never went to one because scholarships always made private schools cheaper for me. And really, no good law school is cheap. University of Wisconsin is probably the best bang for your buck that anyone can get, as far as the combination of reputation and price, but it's still ranked too low for a lot of places to hire from.

[Deleted]

I can't think of a career I'd want to do less than being a legal secretary, other than being any other kind of secretary, or a teacher, or a garbage man.

Requires a completely different skill set. There are thousands of careers that don't require billables, why would I jump to this one?

And again, not to be offensive, but I didn't go into 140K of SL debt to earn $30K a year.

[Kore]

Feb 19, 2013 11:50:47 GMT -5 @gypsy said:

Feb 19, 2013 11:40:58 GMT -5 @iheartcosmos said:

um what?

Take a step back and think about what you just wrote so I don't have to write anything that can be construed as offensive to those who are secretaries (who I greatly respect and rely upon).

?

You have been talking for a year or two about billables being an issue. The OP was about billables.

They have different expectations than that of an attorney.

How could this be offensive?

I'm also not understanding how this is offensive? She wasn't bashing secretaries. I took it to read that their work-life balance is probably more manageable.

[Deleted]

Feb 19, 2013 11:55:39 GMT -5 Kore said:

Feb 19, 2013 11:50:47 GMT -5 @gypsy said:

?

You have been talking for a year or two about billables being an issue. The OP was about billables.

They have different expectations than that of an attorney.

How could this be offensive?

I'm also not understanding how this is offensive? She wasn't bashing secretaries. I took it to read that their work-life balance is probably more manageable.

see above. I didnt say she was being offensive, I am trying not to be offensive to secretaries.

I am not the secretarial type. I am not organized. I am not good at taking orders. I have poor typing skills. I need to work independently.  Just because a law firm needs secretaries doesnt make a lawyer qualified to be a secretary.

[Deleted]

Feb 19, 2013 11:22:18 GMT -5 @angryharpy said:

So now it's you won't cry a river? The original post was that you won't feel sorry for anyone with student loans.

I'm not asking anyone to cry me a river. Hell, I'm doing pretty OK. Doesn't mean the situation doesn't still piss me off.

I feel a TON of sympathy for people who graduated recently and who are struggling to get by because the cost of education hasn't kept up with starting wages. I can't even imagine what it was like to start college in 2006, 2007, 2008, and then graduate into the shithole that was the economy 4 years later.

Crying a river, feeling sorry for someone, they're really not all that different.  I won't be doing either.

Student loans are a gamble.  They always have been and they always will be.  At no point in history was it wise to say "hey, I'll take out $100k and keep my fingers crossed that I actually obtain a job to pay these suckers off." You could have a life altering event and never graduate, you could completely not make the cut for the job, there are a lot of factors that could make it very difficult to pay off $100k in loans.

People choose to take the gamble and they have to deal with the outcome.

I'm not saying the system isn't fucked up, because it certainly is, but lots of things are fucked up in this country.  That doesn't negate the fact that you jumped on the bandwagon and did it anyway. 






 

[hbomdiggity]

Feb 19, 2013 11:43:05 GMT -5 nevermind said:

Feb 19, 2013 11:31:04 GMT -5 @buckybells said:

I completely agree with your posts. I feel the same way. Taking out student loans are a choice, but what was the alternative - not get a degree? Or leave with just a bachelor's and make $10 an hour?

In order to have a "good" job these days, it seems you need an advanced degree, and an advanced degree comes with a high price tag, high interest, and doesn't even ensure a good salary. I feel very fortunate to make my salary when I compare myself to my sisters, one of whom is a waitress with a bachelor's and the other of whom works in event planning for $10 an hour. Neither much (if anything) in the way of benefits, and my sister with the $10 an hour job also has a pile of student loans. So I feel lucky, but also angry that this is the best we could all do. Our parents did the best they could to help us pay for education, we all worked part time during college, and we still didn't come out without loans OR with a high paying job. No need to cry for us, but acting like we made poor choices is kind of insulting. 

There are lots of alternatives.  I have a bachelor's and master's and never had student loans.  I went to a cheaper state school for my bachelor's and paid cash working a couple part time jobs.  When I left with just my bachelor's I got a job that paid $50K per year and let them pay for my master's.  

My parents drilled it into me that student loans were bad and I'm grateful for that.  If I hadn't been able to cash flow it as a full time student, I would have rather slowed down my degree and taken some time to save some money.

You cannot compare undergrad and masters programs to professional degrees.

There are not cheap law schools. Even the public institutions raise the rates for law and med programs so while its less expensive than private, it's not the same $2k/semester that the undergrads are paying.

You also can't pace yourself and work part time - it's not allowed. (There are some evening programs, which i actually attended, but even still my salary could not cover, or really put a dent in, my 25k/yr tuition.)

So unless you have someone paying for you, loans are the only way to go. And since they fixed the rates of loans at 6.8 and 8.5, the interest is killer.

[rikki]

Feb 19, 2013 11:59:48 GMT -5 papiercherri said:

Crying a river, feeling sorry for someone, they're really not all that different.  I won't be doing either.

Student loans are a gamble.  They always have been and they always will be.  At no point in history was it wise to say "hey, I'll take out $100k and keep my fingers crossed that I actually obtain a job to pay these suckers off." You could have a life altering event and never graduate, you could completely not make the cut for the job, there are a lot of factors that could make it very difficult to pay off $100k in loans.

People choose to take the gamble and they have to deal with the outcome.

I'm not saying the system isn't fucked up, because it certainly is, but lots of things are fucked up in this country.  That doesn't negate the fact that you jumped on the bandwagon and did it anyway. 

 

Are you not the poster that dropped out of high school?  I have a hard time listening to anything you have to say related to education.

[Deleted]

Feb 19, 2013 11:39:11 GMT -5 kadams767 said:

Feb 19, 2013 10:56:59 GMT -5 rupertpenny said:

I'm curious how long you have been out of law school. My H is a lawyer and so are all of his friends, he went to a top 30 school and has been out for 5 years and I can think of one of his friends that even makes 6 figures, much less 150K and this is a friend from college who went to a top 14 school. So they haven't been practicing very long, but there is no way in hell they will all be making 150k in ten, or even 20 years. Almost all of them regret law school. 

I can't speak for Chloe77, but I think her point was just that not all lawyers are in this position. I fully acknowledge that I've been very fortunate, but I am one of them. I don't love my job everyday, but I'm doing alright and probably better than a lot of people in my city and circle of friends.

I don't make $150k and I am not sure if I will stay around long enough to ever hit that mark.  But, the upside of my personal situation, is that I don't have to.  I have been practicing for 5 years.  I went to a state school and graduated with manageable loans.  I work for a small firm in a low to MCOL area.  I typically bill between 1700-1800 hours per year.  I usually work 9-10 hour days in the office when I'm not traveling, another hour or so at home, a few hours on weekends, and I take several weeks of vacation each year.  I made almost exactly $100k last year.  My quality of life is pretty good.  I don't think I would trade this for BigLaw hours or money at this point in my career. 

But this actually kind of PROVES his point that law school is not some amazing financial move.

Based on your description, you work about 55 hours per week. Assuming 3 weeks of vacation, that is 2695 hours per year. With a salary of $100,000, that comes out to a little over $37 per hour.

Now, if you enjoy your job and you think you're fairly compensated, then great.

But the fact is that you could probably have done something else that would have eventually earned you $37 per hour for 55 hours per week.  When you break it down, your hourly wage simply isn't all that fantastic. And that's what he's getting at - people go to law school with a misguided notion - largely perpetuated by the law schools, of course - that they're going to make GREAT money. In reality, I think a situation like yours in which they make $37/hour and don't hate their lives is probably one of the best case scenarios.

And sorry for the excessive quoting, but every time I try to cut it down, it gets all messed up.

[kershnic]

Well, since I very seriously considered going to law school about 3 years ago (took the LSAT and everything) and then read about all the disgruntled lawyers in the world and changed my mind.... I can see how new law graduates who are learning the facts of law now rather than before going to law school might regret their choice.

But it's not really a major news flash that for most people there are significant sacrifices involved in making six figures. If it was easy to earn six figures with a cheap and easy degree and jobs that are relaxing and 9-5 then everyone would do it. It's all well and good that there's a list of other jobs that pay $50/hour, but most of them require a lot of moving up the chain of command, not to mention have some of the same issues with expensive graduate school, necessity of specific aptitudes, crappy hours or living conditions, etc.

And, I'm with @buckybells on wondering exactly what the alternative is to taking out student loans. I have plenty of applicants who all seem to really want a job.... the position I'm hiring for pays $32k/year and requires a bachelor's degree in a VHCOL city. Between my wife and I we're paying $630/month for student loans at 6.8% for 10 years. That's graduate school only, and we both worked somewhere between half and full time throughout graduate school to pay living expenses and had some financial assistance from family that many people aren't lucky enough to have access to. Sure, I could have chosen to be one of my applicants, begging for the 32k/year job I'm hiring for. Or, I suppose, I could have gone to law school.

[Kore]

Feb 19, 2013 12:03:35 GMT -5 rikki said:

Feb 19, 2013 11:59:48 GMT -5 papiercherri said:

Crying a river, feeling sorry for someone, they're really not all that different.  I won't be doing either.

Student loans are a gamble.  They always have been and they always will be.  At no point in history was it wise to say "hey, I'll take out $100k and keep my fingers crossed that I actually obtain a job to pay these suckers off." You could have a life altering event and never graduate, you could completely not make the cut for the job, there are a lot of factors that could make it very difficult to pay off $100k in loans.

People choose to take the gamble and they have to deal with the outcome.

I'm not saying the system isn't fucked up, because it certainly is, but lots of things are fucked up in this country.  That doesn't negate the fact that you jumped on the bandwagon and did it anyway. 

 

Are you not the poster that dropped out of high school?  I have a hard time listening to anything you have to say related to education.

Rawr.

spenjamins dropped out of HS, too...

[jigsy]

Feb 19, 2013 10:51:13 GMT -5 runblondie26 said:

Well, I take that whole list with a huge grain of salt. Some of the figures are cetainly inflated.

#15 is funny.

15. Co-pilot

What they do: A co-pilot serves as one part of the two-part team that makes up an airplane cockpit crew. In-flight duties are usually shared between the more experienced pilot, also called the captain, and the less experienced co-pilot, also referred to as the first officer.

Education: High school diploma, pilot's license.

Average hourly earnings: $52.45



They fail to mention that obtaining pilot's license and required experience will run you about 80-100k in training costs. Most major airlines require at least a bachelors degree to even apply, so you need that too.

By law, you can only have 100 "billable hours" per month as a pilot. That means main cabin door is closed and the plane is backed away from the gate. You're not getting paid for the rest of the time you are away, which is well over 100 hours a month. Only senior pilots can get that many extra hours, as they are coveted. Average is about 75.
 
Also most importantly, that's the starting hourly for a co-pilot at Delta or Southwest, which is basically akin to a pitcher making it to the starting line-up of the yankees after years in the minors.

I was going to bring this up...hours worked does not equal billable hours in a lot of professions. MH works a hell of a lot harder than I do, and yeah, his current hourly wage rate is something like $32/hour, but he only gets paid for flight hours. So all that time sitting at the airport, not getting paid. Flight is delayed, not getting paid.  Land and set the parking break, payment stops, but not the work since the airplane has to be shut down. After taking in all of that, his wage is less than what I make, and that isn't even considering the time he spends constantly studying to maintain his licenses/employment and updating manuals that he is required to have. 
And all of that wouldn't even be so bad if it weren't for the student loans he has to enable him to get his licenses. And he was a lucky one, he got free tuition, so he only paid for actual flying. Many of his classmates have over 100k in debt and make the same as him
Last year, he made $27,500...and probably worked/was away from home as many hours as a lot of attorneys too. So meh...

[hbomdiggity]

Feb 19, 2013 11:55:39 GMT -5 Kore said:

Feb 19, 2013 11:50:47 GMT -5 @gypsy said:

?

You have been talking for a year or two about billables being an issue. The OP was about billables.

They have different expectations than that of an attorney.

How could this be offensive?

I'm also not understanding how this is offensive? She wasn't bashing secretaries. I took it to read that their work-life balance is probably more manageable.

And it's also a completely different workload/skill set. You can't go from being an attorney (that is nearing partnership nonetheless) to being a secretary.

[ESF]

Feb 19, 2013 11:48:26 GMT -5 @gypsy said:

Feb 19, 2013 11:37:23 GMT -5 ESF said:

Just because there are clear rules doesn't make those rules logical or good. There is lots of evidence that the rising cost of education plus stagnant wages is resulting in slowed retirement savings, a decrease in population growth, and lower rates of home ownership. Simply put, people can't afford to do these things at age 25 or 30 in the same rates thy were a decade ago. So these personal choices are having an impact on the country as a whole. I know this board loves to point and laugh at the dummies who weren't MM masters at age 20, but people are kidding themselves if they think these private choices aren't also hurting them.

Student loans are a significant factor in the continued economic slump. Dismissing them as private choices doesn't make that statement less true.

I don't disagree.

I can't feel any worse for people with student loans than I can with someone underwater on their house. They rolled the dice, too.

Again, I have student loans. It's not lost on me. I didn't borrow $200k (or even $100k) because it was too risky.

For me at least, I think the housing blame is shared amongst borrowers and lenders, real estate industry, mortgage banking industry, the feds, and about 8 zillion other players.  While I think there were a lot of irresponsible borrowers, I think (1) the irresponsible borrowers were enabled by rules and regulations that not only allowed but encouraged such borrowing to take place; (2) there were a lot of responsible borrowers who made poor choices, but those choices could have been avoided if certain options were never even presented to them; and (3) there was an insane amount of corruption, trickery, deceit, fraud, and just all around bad practices that trapped some of the smartest of consumers.  

All of these things are also true of the student loan industry.   And yet, on the mortgage side, there's been some effort (albeit pathetic and probably ineffective) to advocate for better disclosures and better controls to make the system work better.  There's been none of that on the SL side.

I know many people like to believe that the mortgage mess was 100% the fault of irresponsible borrowers, and probably those same people believe that to be true of the SL industry.  I will never believe that to be true, and I consider myself extremely well educated on this topic.   

Ultimately, it comes down to this -- if I lend a homeless man $1000 and expect to be repaid back, who is stupider - me or the homeless person?   Personally, I have a fundamental problem with a system in which that would happen, and I'd be rewarded with a promotion, tax breaks, taxpayer-backed protection against default, and no blame whatsoever.    Maybe the homeless man made a stupid choice borrowing something he couldn't afford to repay back, but by and large, I would be the real moron in that situation, and it baffles me that so few people see it like that.