Humanities Fall From Favor

[IIOY]

I had no idea the humanities major numbers were so low.

CAMBRIDGE, Mass.—The humanities division at Harvard University, for centuries a standard-bearer of American letters, is attracting fewer undergraduates amid concerns about the degree's value in a rapidly changing job market.

A university report being released Thursday suggests the division aggressively market itself to freshmen and sophomores, create a broader interdisciplinary framework to retain students and build an internship network to establish the value of the degree in the workforce.

This "is an anti-intellectual moment, and what matters to me is that we, the people in arts and humanities, find creative and affirmative ways of engaging the moment," said Diana Sorensen, Harvard's dean of Arts and Humanities. The division needs to show "what it is our work does so they don't think we're just living up in the clouds all the time."

Universities' humanities divisions and liberal-arts colleges across the nation are facing similar challenges in the wake of stepped-up global economic competition, a job market that is disproportionately rewarding graduates in the hard sciences, rising tuition and sky-high student-debt levels.

Among recent college graduates who majored in English, the unemployment rate was 9.8%; for philosophy and religious-studies majors, it was 9.5%; and for history majors, it was also 9.5%, according to a report this month by the Georgetown Public Policy Institute that used data from 2010 and 2011.

By comparison, recent chemistry graduates were unemployed at a rate of just 5.8%; and elementary-education graduates were at 5%.

Students have taken note. In 2010, just 7% of college graduates nationally majored in the humanities, down from 14% in 1966. At Harvard, humanities majors have fallen to 20% in 2012 from 36% in 1954. In the last decade, the decline in humanities students at Harvard has been particularly pronounced, with one-third fewer prospective freshmen expressing interest in the field.

Shannon Lytle, a 19-year-old from Youngstown, Ohio, who is heading into his sophomore year at Harvard, considered majoring in history, but instead he will pick computer science when he declares a concentration in a few months.

"People say you should do what you love," Mr. Lytle said during a break from his job giving tours of the Ivy League campus Wednesday. "But the reality is that it's kind of a tougher economic time, and we do have to worry about living after graduation. I don't want to be doing what I love and be homeless," he added.

The weaker job prospects in certain fields have led four Republican governors to call for funding cuts at departments in public universities that they don't believe prepare students for the workforce.

"If you want to take gender studies, that's fine, go to private school," North Carolina GOP Gov. Patrick McCrory said in a radio interview in January. "But I don't want to subsidize that if it's not going to get someone a job."

School presidents and administrators at liberal-arts colleges have already started to take a more job-oriented approach to a liberal-arts education. At Wake Forest University, the career-service department has been integrated into the curriculum. Professors are now expected to help students connect the curriculum to employment opportunities in the workforce, said Andy Chan, vice president for Personal and Career Development at the school.

"We're engaging every student from their first day on campus to maximize their career development," said Mr. Chan.

At Harvard, students today are understandably focused on the job market and on earning money, said Homi Bhabha, director of the Humanities Center at Harvard. "That clearly throws a shadow on people's enthusiasm," said the bespectacled professor in an interview in his book-filled office on the leafy campus.

Mr. Bhabha said he didn't give much weight to criticism from some elected officials who carp that young people need to go into fields that are supposedly more useful.

"I think that's because they have a very primitive and reductive view of what is essential in society," he said. "There are jobs, and even in business, the humanities play a major role."

In fact, to hear Mr. Bhabha and Harvard tell it, the outlook is actually good for humanities majors. They have a high acceptance rate into law and medical schools, and are in demand in business world for critical writing and thinking skills, Mr. Bhabha said.

The report noted that Harvard's humanities division had in some ways cut itself off from the job market—training students to be academics rather than "truly educated citizens" of the broader society.

"Those of us committed to criticism and critique might recognize a kernel of truth in conservative fears about the left-leaning academy," according to the report. "Among the ways we sometimes alienate students from the humanities is the impression they get that some ideas are unspeakable in our classroom."

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[wrathofkuus]

It is as though universities are becoming excessively expensive technical schools.

[Velar Fricative]

"If you want to take gender studies, that's fine, go to private school," North Carolina GOP Gov. Patrick McCrory said in a radio interview in January. "But I don't want to subsidize that if it's not going to get someone a job."

Ew. Ew ew ew.

Employers still hire people of any major for entry-level jobs - I think it's terrible that the humanities are being shat on like this. Sure, they won't get jobs as engineers but if they truly want to work as engineers, of course they should major in engineering. Also, with a BA being the new HS diploma these days, many grad programs accept people from any major.

So when the economy booms again, are we going to boost up these humanities programs again? I fear this is a permanent shift. College shouldn't equal vocational school, and society benefits from well-rounded graduates.

[caden]

This is why I liked going to a liberal arts college - 2 years of a wide range of subjects and 2 years for a marketable major. There is a lot of demand for good jobs in the sciences (engineering, nursing, IT, even teaching math) so it doesn't surprise me those majors are growing at the expense of others. You actually need a major I'm the sciences to do those jobs, as opposed to a general business major like myself who could easily have minored in business, majored in a humanities field and been fine.

[Deleted]

i was a humanities major so i'm biased but it is a very useful degree if you need someone who knows how to think. Maybe that's our problem this new economy the Koch brothers have created doesn't need or want thinkers.

[Velar Fricative]

I've got meetings almost all morning but later I'd like to look up applications stats to liberal arts colleges - both elite and non-elite and see if they've been decreasing.

[pt716]

I even had people in my chemistry program complaining that it wasn't practical enough, and was "too theoretical."

[eclaires]

In my ideal world, high school would be followed by a one-two year liberal arts type degree for a well rounded education in conjunction with a 4 year college degree or something. I just think there is such value in a well rounded humanities/liberal arts education. Obviously I know this is unrealistic, but in my utopia, education for education's sake is feasible for everyone. Or maybe a 2 year degree before 3 years of your specialized degree.. IDK. SOMETHING.

I'm a big fan of liberal arts colleges. Also, this is part of why I'm not a STEM fan. I know it's probably irrational, but I just see how little value is placed on everything outside of technical, science and engineering fields and it makes me sad. HISTORY DEGREES HAVE VALUE!!!!!!!

[Deleted]

It has actually worked out really well for me to have a journalism degree and work in a science field.

I have a different skill set which makes me useful.

[ChillyMcFreeze]

Jun 6, 2013 8:25:09 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

I've got meetings almost all morning but later I'd like to look up applications stats to liberal arts colleges - both elite and non-elite and see if they've been decreasing.

We're dying from low enrollment at this liberal arts college. But enrollment is also down at my dad's public university, so it might just be that people are deferring college/opting for tech school/some other phenomenon across the board.

[ttt]

This is what happens when college is no longer about actually getting an education.

[Deleted]

Jun 6, 2013 10:55:07 GMT -5 ttt said:

This is what happens when college is no longer about actually getting an education.

i think it has been that way for at least 20 years. It is about getting a piece of paper

[stever]

Jun 6, 2013 6:06:05 GMT -5 wrathofkuus said:

It is as though universities are becoming excessively expensive technical schools.

This.

And: "Shannon Lytle, a 19-year-old from Youngstown, Ohio, who is heading into his sophomore year at Harvard, considered majoring in history, but instead he will pick computer science when he declares a concentration in a few months.

"People say you should do what you love," Mr. Lytle said during a break from his job giving tours of the Ivy League campus Wednesday. "But the reality is that it's kind of a tougher economic time, and we do have to worry about living after graduation. I don't want to be doing what I love and be homeless," he added."

[CrazyLucky]

Kind of offended that people are implying engineers and other non-humanities people don't know how to think. I don't assume all humanities people stink at math.

[wawa]

Jun 6, 2013 11:22:35 GMT -5 CrazyLucky said:

Kind of offended that people are implying engineers and other non-humanities people don't know how to think. I don't assume all humanities people stink at math.

Hmmm...yeah.  I mean, I get what you're saying sept and sbp and others, but still.  I mean, certainly engineers don't have to think in their jobs.  Or communicate with the outside world ever.  (as I sit here writing and editing reports)

I will say though that when I was considering a state school vs. fancy private college I got a distinct "job training" vibe from the state school's engineering program but the private college's program was still very focused on a well rounded education with lots of broad topics even within engineering.  

[ttt]

I remember reading a great quote about the arts years ago. I can't remember how it went exactly, but essentially it was that if you teach only reading, writing and arithmetic, then soon enough, people will have nothing to read or write about.

[cattledogkisses]

Jun 6, 2013 11:40:47 GMT -5 wawa said:

Jun 6, 2013 11:22:35 GMT -5 CrazyLucky said:

Kind of offended that people are implying engineers and other non-humanities people don't know how to think. I don't assume all humanities people stink at math.

Hmmm...yeah.  I mean, I get what you're saying sept and sbp and others, but still.  I mean, certainly engineers don't have to think in their jobs.  Or communicate with the outside world ever.  (as I sit here writing and editing reports)

I will say though that when I was considering a state school vs. fancy private college I got a distinct "job training" vibe from the state school's engineering program but the private college's program was still very focused on a well rounded education with lots of broad topics even within engineering.  

This is what was rubbing me the wrong way about this thread. 

[Deleted]

I'm not implying engineers don't know how to think...especially if they are engineers at liberal arts colleges

but not every career requires a technical degree so forcing kids who could happily major in English and be successful into "communications" seems short sighted. 

[ttt]

I don't think it's fair to say that studying humanities is the only way to learn "how to think." But I think there is a serious danger in dismissing that *way* of thinking as useless because it doesn't directly lead to producing a profitable product or a "useful" skill.

We've become a society that prizes "the one right answer" - just look at our obsession with standardized tests and standardized everything. Heck, just look at most video games - they kill creativity because there's only one right way to do things, only one direction to go, one way to pass the level. No need to be creative or think 'outside the box' (though I hate that phrase) - there's a right way and a wrong way and that's it. No grey, everything black and white. The answer is C. Not, A, not B, not D, not even if you can defend how you go to that answer. The computer doesn't care. You're either right or you're wrong.

[wawa]

Jun 6, 2013 12:06:35 GMT -5 cattledogkisses said:

Jun 6, 2013 11:40:47 GMT -5 wawa said:

Hmmm...yeah.  I mean, I get what you're saying sept and sbp and others, but still.  I mean, certainly engineers don't have to think in their jobs.  Or communicate with the outside world ever.  (as I sit here writing and editing reports)

I will say though that when I was considering a state school vs. fancy private college I got a distinct "job training" vibe from the state school's engineering program but the private college's program was still very focused on a well rounded education with lots of broad topics even within engineering.  

This is what was rubbing me the wrong way about this thread. 

re: the bolded - I do think really that's more of an argument for including lots of humanities requirements in "technical" degrees.  So basically, I agree with the basic premise of this thread.  Humanities Rock!  Bring them On!  I just don't like the anti-technical field slant it was taking.

[Deleted]

I have a humanities degree so I am somewhat biased. I obviously think they have value But in this economy they are risky and I can see why students are trying to be more pragmatic, particularly if they're taking on a lot debt to get through school. Although it sounds like some schools are taking steps to help humanities students figure out how to market themselves, which is great, it's still on you to do actually pull it off. Whereas it's a lot easier, and therefore tempting to people who need to get a job asap, to pursue a degree that has a defined path that traditionally *has* lead to jobs.

[ChillyMcFreeze]

Jun 6, 2013 12:11:34 GMT -5 ttt said:

I don't think it's fair to say that studying humanities is the only way to learn "how to think." But I think there is a serious danger in dismissing that *way* of thinking as useless because it doesn't directly lead to producing a profitable product or a "useful" skill.

I do agree with this. I got a "skills" degree myself, but now I'm teaching at a liberal arts college. I'm teaching a theory class where I would expect the students are there because they want to learn for the sake of knowing things. But instead, they want me to relate it to how it will help them in their careers. Theory and practice go hand-in-hand, but it seems no one values learning for the sake of learning anymore. It has to have a tangible benefit to have any value to them, and that's a shame. 

Another problem is that most college students (here, anyway) are trying to get out in 3.5 years. That doesn't leave enough time for the engineering or accounting majors to take philopsophy, media theory, sociology, etc. Things that will not make them better engineers or accountants on paper but will expand their knowledge base in a more wonkish kind of way. It's just not something we as a society value anymore, and students are clued into that.

[wawa]

Jun 6, 2013 12:30:15 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

Jun 6, 2013 11:40:47 GMT -5 wawa said:

Hmmm...yeah.  I mean, I get what you're saying sept and sbp and others, but still.  I mean, certainly engineers don't have to think in their jobs.  Or communicate with the outside world ever.  (as I sit here writing and editing reports)

I will say though that when I was considering a state school vs. fancy private college I got a distinct "job training" vibe from the state school's engineering program but the private college's program was still very focused on a well rounded education with lots of broad topics even within engineering.  

I thought it was just a reference to articles that have been posted here before noting that the job-focused majors are graduating people that employers subsequently complaint are not capable of critical thought.  They can't synthesize information.  I do think that the humanities major requires, hones, whatever, a different kind of thinking than non-humanities majors and that is what people are referring to.  I think engineering majors are great.  I married one.  And I find the engineering major not even remotely problematic from the perspective of 'education' (compared to majors in "cataloging" or "technology marketing" or the other "majors" that are really just job training), but I do think of engineering as a "learn how to do" major and history/english/philosophy as a "learn how to think" major.  Doesn't mean I think engineers are stupid.  It's just not one of the "thinking" majors.  Is it?

I think my point (which may have been easily lost) was that a GOOD engineering degree should still teach those critical thinking/information synthesizing/outside the box skills.  If you go to a traditional 4 year program, you SHOULD be getting all of that regardless of your major.  You don't have to major in history to get that.  Or rather you shouldn't have to.

The fact that it isn't necessarily the case is just part of the overall issue that it's become acceptable or even expected to drop a lot of the gen ed requirements from the more technical programs, and to gear the actual subject matter classes in computer science or engineering toward job skills and away from theory.  

My school immersed my ass in theory.  And I had both depth and breadth gen ed requirements.  Philosophy, history, psych, english, sociology.  All requirements.  I graduated with a lot less of the day-to-day working skills compared to graduates of the state school down the hill (minimal CADD drafting experience for example), but I have the "thinking" skills that you guys are talking about here and they've served me well in my career.

So...I'm not really disagreeing with you.  Just pointing out that I think it misses the point to bemoan the rise of technical degrees over humanities degrees, when the real problem is that is was a sharp contrast between them at all.

[eclaires]

I think engineering is definitely a thinking major. It's not just learning how to do various things, it's learning x and being able to apply it to pretty much anything in a zillion different ways. So in that way, it is learning how to think. Lots of innovation comes from engineers, which I think requires a level of thinking beyond just knowing how to do something.

I think it is different than how humanities majors are taught, but not in a bad way. It's just different and they both have incredible value. I just worry that the push towards the STEM type fields is devaluing humanities and pushing people away from them. Not that the STEM-type fields themselves are the problem. It's more the idea that "oh well you can get a job with an engineering degree but not an English degree." KWIM? The problem isn't necessarily in how these things are taught, but that there is a job focus from education. But I know some programs are better than others in incorporating a more well rounded education, like wawa mentioned which I can also see being an issue.

[cattledogkisses]

Jun 6, 2013 12:30:15 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

Jun 6, 2013 11:40:47 GMT -5 wawa said:

Hmmm...yeah.  I mean, I get what you're saying sept and sbp and others, but still.  I mean, certainly engineers don't have to think in their jobs.  Or communicate with the outside world ever.  (as I sit here writing and editing reports)

I will say though that when I was considering a state school vs. fancy private college I got a distinct "job training" vibe from the state school's engineering program but the private college's program was still very focused on a well rounded education with lots of broad topics even within engineering.  

I thought it was just a reference to articles that have been posted here before noting that the job-focused majors are graduating people that employers subsequently complaint are not capable of critical thought.  They can't synthesize information.  I do think that the humanities major requires, hones, whatever, a different kind of thinking than non-humanities majors and that is what people are referring to.  I think engineering majors are great.  I married one.  And I find the engineering major not even remotely problematic from the perspective of 'education' (compared to majors in "cataloging" or "technology marketing" or the other "majors" that are really just job training), but I do think of engineering as a "learn how to do" major and history/english/philosophy as a "learn how to think" major.  Doesn't mean I think engineers are stupid.  It's just not one of the "thinking" majors.  Is it?

*Throwing this out there: my background is in marine biology and I'm currently 3 years into a PhD in molecular genetics.*

I still disagree a little.  Maybe this is more of a graduate vs. undergrad distinction, but I've found in my current program it's as much about teaching you how to think as it is teaching material... maybe even more so (although scientific thinking is another different kind of thinking from humanities-type thinking).  I'm approaching this through the window of my own experience, but creative thinking is a very important quality in the sciences, as is the ability to write and communicate effectively.  Writing and publishing journal articles is a major part of what I do.  STEM is a lot more than just science and math. 

[msmerymac]

Journalism and history degrees checking in.

Both of which are actually quite popular undergraduate degrees for lawyers (along with Poli Sci).

I work in marketing, FWIW, and creative writing abilities are quite useful in what I do.

[msmerymac]

Jun 6, 2013 12:45:16 GMT -5 wawa said:

Jun 6, 2013 12:30:15 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

I thought it was just a reference to articles that have been posted here before noting that the job-focused majors are graduating people that employers subsequently complaint are not capable of critical thought.  They can't synthesize information.  I do think that the humanities major requires, hones, whatever, a different kind of thinking than non-humanities majors and that is what people are referring to.  I think engineering majors are great.  I married one.  And I find the engineering major not even remotely problematic from the perspective of 'education' (compared to majors in "cataloging" or "technology marketing" or the other "majors" that are really just job training), but I do think of engineering as a "learn how to do" major and history/english/philosophy as a "learn how to think" major.  Doesn't mean I think engineers are stupid.  It's just not one of the "thinking" majors.  Is it?

I think my point (which may have been easily lost) was that a GOOD engineering degree should still teach those critical thinking/information synthesizing/outside the box skills.  If you go to a traditional 4 year program, you SHOULD be getting all of that regardless of your major.  You don't have to major in history to get that.  Or rather you shouldn't have to.

The fact that it isn't necessarily the case is just part of the overall issue that it's become acceptable or even expected to drop a lot of the gen ed requirements from the more technical programs, and to gear the actual subject matter classes in computer science or engineering toward job skills and away from theory.  

My school immersed my ass in theory.  And I had both depth and breadth gen ed requirements.  Philosophy, history, psych, english, sociology.  All requirements.  I graduated with a lot less of the day-to-day working skills compared to graduates of the state school down the hill (minimal CADD drafting experience for example), but I have the "thinking" skills that you guys are talking about here and they've served me well in my career.

So...I'm not really disagreeing with you.  Just pointing out that I think it misses the point to bemoan the rise of technical degrees over humanities degrees, when the real problem is that is was a sharp contrast between them at all.

Yes, but this is because of the historic emphasis the US places on liberal arts education, which means you needed a well-rounded education to graduate - which includes math, science, literature, languages, history, etc. So throwing a few humanities classes in with science classes does tech you to think differently. And it's something you may or may not use in your future job, but.... it's there. It's EDUCATION!

[wawa]

Jun 6, 2013 13:11:16 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Jun 6, 2013 12:45:16 GMT -5 wawa said:

Yes, but this is because of the historic emphasis the US places on liberal arts education, which means you needed a well-rounded education to graduate - which includes math, science, literature, languages, history, etc. So throwing a few humanities classes in with science classes does tech you to think differently. And it's something you may or may not use in your future job, but.... it's there. It's EDUCATION!

Right.  I agree.  
Was that not clear from what I wrote?

Perhaps my college degree did not serve me as well as I thought.  

[msmerymac]

Jun 6, 2013 13:16:39 GMT -5 wawa said:

Jun 6, 2013 13:11:16 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Yes, but this is because of the historic emphasis the US places on liberal arts education, which means you needed a well-rounded education to graduate - which includes math, science, literature, languages, history, etc. So throwing a few humanities classes in with science classes does tech you to think differently. And it's something you may or may not use in your future job, but.... it's there. It's EDUCATION!

Right.  I agree.  
Was that not clear from what I wrote?

Perhaps my college degree did not serve me as well as I thought.  

Nor mine, apparently.  

Anyway, I think when we (I think we're around the same age) were in college, it was just understood that you had to do all your gen ed requirements because well rounded education, blah blah blah. And now it's like, "as many career training classes as possible!" And I get it, sort of, because of the money aspect, but welding school is a hell of a lot less expensive if you want job training... and we weren't even in college that long ago, or so I'd like to think. 

[ttt]

The problem also is that we no longer value education for its own sake. We don't place any value on having an educated citizenry because that leads to better government, better decision making, etc. we value education only as far as its a means to an end. "Well what's the point of studying Roman history? You can't *use* that." And "why do I need to know how to analyze a novel, nobody is going to pay you to pick out themes in Great Expectations."

One, we can't seem to see beyond the immediate - that no, no one is going to hire someone to analyze novels, but being able to read something and see subtle clues and cues that mean something greater might, indeed, be an important skill for, say, a CIA analyst reading intelligence reports.

Two, we have this mindset that if it isn't directly and immediately valuable as a moneymaking skill, it's useless. We don't admire people who can recite Greek poetry and who can tell you about the primary causes of the French Revolution. That's nerdy. That's useless knowledge. Why aspire to that?