mbcdefg, off topic, but what are your opinions on Wallis Simpson?
I've heard that after Prince Phillip dies, Edward will 1) inherit his title (which is why he wasn't created a Duke when he got married and why he and Sophie are the Earl and Countess of Wessex instead) and 2) take over Phillip's duties. I've heard that Edward is the Queen's favorite child. But Peter Phillips is her favorite grandchild.
mbcdefg, off topic, but what are your opinions on Wallis Simpson?
I've heard that after Prince Phillip dies, Edward will 1) inherit his title (which is why he wasn't created a Duke when he got married and why he and Sophie are the Earl and Countess of Wessex instead) and 2) take over Phillip's duties. I've heard that Edward is the Queen's favorite child. But Peter Phillips is her favorite grandchild.
Re Wallis: From what I've read, she never really wanted to marry Edward VIII, but she felt sort of obligated after he abdicated the throne for her. I've also read about comments from their friends/staff that she would just scream at him all the time and he was her doormat. IDK if they really had a loving relationship or not, but I've gotten the impression that he was WAY more into her than the other way around. I'd have no trouble believing that he sort of had a fetish for women bossing him around like her was a child.
Re Prince Edward: Yes, it's been confirmed that he will inherit the Dukedom of Edinburgh after Philip (and, I believe, the queen) dies. And he's already started working with the Duke's charities, specifically the Duke of Edinburgh International Award.
I can certainly believe that Edward has pleased the queen in recent years, especially in regards to his marriage to Sophie. They've lasted for over 10 years now, and supposedly their home is very close to the queen's and they/their children spend a lot of time with her. I've read that Sophie and the queen watch TV together at night, and Sophie is the only royal who accompanies the queen in her car going to Easter Mass. The queen also gave Sophie the Royal Victorian Order and the Royal Family Order, which are personal tokens of her esteem ... Camilla has both these things as well (and Anne has the RFO and the Order of the Garter, but she's the queen's daughter), Diana just had a Royal Family Order (which I can believe was simply because she was Princess of Wales and not particularly because the queen liked her), and Fergie didn't get squat.
They attend a lot of foreign events as her representatives ... I'm curious to see if this continues once Charles becomes king and William and Kate become Prince and Princess of Wales. And especially if/when Harry gets married. I think Charles wants to keep things really simple and limit the number of family members involved in official events, but Edward and Sophie will attract a lot less attention (and security problems) than William/Kate or Harry would.
At what point does "prince" or "princess" drop out? I know you said Lady Louise could be a princess but they decided against it to relieve pressure. Will Beatrice and Eugenie's kids be prince/princesses? What about their kids? It seems as though you'd get further and further away from the actual line of succession pretty quickly and you'd end up with lots of little princes and princesses running around.
Thanks for all the info today!
Short answer: The people entitled to be called "Prince(ss)" are the queen's four children, the children of her three sons, and all of William's future children.
Thank you!
So now more questions....
I guess this means Harry's kids won't be prince(ss)... unless Charles is King by the time he had kids?
You said that Diana was a "Lady" because her father was an Earl. How does one become an Earl? I just find it strange that Beatrice and Eugenie's kids most likely won't have any "titles" even though they'll be great grandchildren of the queen but a relative "nobody" can be a Lord/Lady.
Although I guess there's not usually this many generations living which I'm sure complicates things as well.
I also am finding this all fascinating and really thank you so much for your detailed answers!!
Short answer: The people entitled to be called "Prince(ss)" are the queen's four children, the children of her three sons, and all of William's future children.
Thank you!
So now more questions....Â
I guess this means Harry's kids won't be prince(ss)... unless Charles is King by the time he had kids?
You said that Diana was a "Lady" because her father was an Earl. How does one become an Earl? I just find it strange that Beatrice and Eugenie's kids most likely won't have any "titles" even though they'll be great grandchildren of the queen but a relative "nobody" can be a Lord/Lady.Â
Although I guess there's not usually this many generations living which I'm sure complicates things as well.
I also am finding this all fascinating and really thank you so much for your detailed answers!!
If Harry has kids while the queen is alive, they won't automatically be princes/princesses. It's her choice if she wants to grant that to them or not. If they're just Lord/Lady while the queen is alive, idk if they get an upgrade to Prince(ss) once Charles is king ... I've always wondered that!
Diana's father was Earl of Spencer. That title was inherited through the generations ... it had nothing to do with Diana marrying Charles (in other words, the queen didn't gift Diana's father with the title since his daughter married her son). The Spencer earldom goes back to something like the 15th century. Diana's brother is the current Earl Spencer.
All earls/dukes aren't royals, and all royals aren't earls/dukes. Earldoms/dukedoms pass from eldest son to eldest son. It's possible for a Dukedom to be royal at one point and then become non-royal as the generations go on. Example:
The queen has a cousin Prince Edward, Duke of Kent. Also another cousin, Prince Richard, Duke of Gloucester. They are princes because they're the grandsons of George V, who was also the queen's grandfather. And they are dukes because they inherited those dukedoms from their fathers, who were sons of George V and therefore princes. But the prince(ss) title only extends to the children of the monarch and the male-line grandchildren of the monarch (children of the monarch's sons) ... so Edward and Richard's sons will each be the next dukes once Edward and Richard each die, but since they are not princes then those dukedoms will continue on but they will no longer be royal dukedoms.
I guess this means Harry's kids won't be prince(ss)... unless Charles is King by the time he had kids?
You said that Diana was a "Lady" because her father was an Earl. How does one become an Earl? I just find it strange that Beatrice and Eugenie's kids most likely won't have any "titles" even though they'll be great grandchildren of the queen but a relative "nobody" can be a Lord/Lady.
Although I guess there's not usually this many generations living which I'm sure complicates things as well.
I also am finding this all fascinating and really thank you so much for your detailed answers!!
If Harry has kids while the queen is alive, they won't automatically be princes/princesses. It's her choice if she wants to grant that to them or not. If they're just Lord/Lady while the queen is alive, idk if they get an upgrade to Prince(ss) once Charles is king ... I've always wondered that!
Diana's father was Earl of Spencer. That title was inherited through the generations ... it had nothing to do with Diana marrying Charles (in other words, the queen didn't gift Diana's father with the title since his daughter married her son). The Spencer earldom goes back to something like the 15th century. Diana's brother is the current Earl Spencer.
All earls/dukes aren't royals, and all royals aren't earls/dukes. Earldoms/dukedoms pass from eldest son to eldest son. It's possible for a Dukedom to be royal at one point and then become non-royal as the generations go on. Example:
The queen has a cousin Prince Edward, Duke of Kent. Also another cousin, Prince Richard, Duke of Gloucester. They are princes because they're the grandsons of George V, who was also the queen's grandfather. And they are dukes because they inherited those dukedoms from their fathers, who were sons of George V and therefore princes. But the prince(ss) title only extends to the children of the monarch and the male-line grandchildren of the monarch (children of the monarch's sons) ... so Edward and Richard's sons will each be the next dukes once Edward and Richard each die, but since they are not princes then those dukedoms will continue on but they will no longer be royal dukedoms.
I'm sure there's probably no one else left who cares, and if you've had enough of answering my questions, please feel say so. You've been so enlightening but of course I think of one more question every time you give an answer.
Someone (you?) suggested that Prince Edward will become Duke of Edinborogh (sp?) upon the death of Prince Phillip. That wou;ld mean that his son would become Duke of Endiborogh? And does the male succession thing (which I know is being changed now) only apply to King or also dukes and earls?
Finally - is the Queen's husband always prince? I know he can't be King, because then he would outrank the Queen..
Thanks again and again if you're tired of answering questions please feel free to ignore me!
If Harry has kids while the queen is alive, they won't automatically be princes/princesses. It's her choice if she wants to grant that to them or not. If they're just Lord/Lady while the queen is alive, idk if they get an upgrade to Prince(ss) once Charles is king ... I've always wondered that!
They don't get an upgrade. All children of the eldest (William) of the Prince of Wales (Charles) will be Prince/ss (no "Lady" for a girl). Children of other children of the Prince of Wales (Harry) will be styled per their father's title. In this case, it's likely that Harry would be given a dukedom upon his marriage (like William), and so they would be styled accordingly. They could always get an 'upgrade' from whoever is monarch at that point, but it wouldn't be automatic. And their style wouldn't get an upgrade with a change in monarch (like because Charles ascends to the throne).
I'm sure there's probably no one else left who cares, and if you've had enough of answering my questions, please feel say so. You've been so enlightening but of course I think of one more question every time you give an answer.
Someone (you?) suggested that Prince Edward will become Duke of Edinborogh (sp?) upon the death of Prince Phillip. That wou;ld mean that his son would become Duke of Endiborogh? And does the male succession thing (which I know is being changed now) only apply to King or also dukes and earls?
Finally - is the Queen's husband always prince? I know he can't be King, because then he would outrank the Queen..
Thanks again and again if you're tired of answering questions please feel free to ignore me!
If the insightful mbcdefg doesn't mind, I can answer some of these before she next checks in.
If Prince Edward becomes Duke of Edinburgh (as is commonly assumed), his son (James) would become Duke of Edinburgh someday (when Edward passes). As mbcdefg explained above, the eldest son inherits a father's title. Most titles also come with lesser titles as well, and so the heir will use a lesser title while the father is alive. So, for example, "Viscount Severn" is the lesser title to the earldom of Wessex. So, while Prince Edward is called "Earl of Wessex,' his son James is currently known as "Viscount Severn," which gives him something nice to use in the time till he succeeds the title, as well as publicly indicates his status as heir (without dispute). If Edward were to receive a greater title (dukedom is the highest title), it's possible that James might use "Earl of Wessex" in his own right. In this case, maybe not, since Edward is really attached to this particular made-up dukedom. More common for older, more established titles with older, more established lesser titles.
And you're precisely right--Philip is not styled as a king so as to not outrank Elizabeth. Technically, the queen's husband does not need to be given any title. He was born a Prince (though he gave up his rights to those titles in order to become a British citizen), and was given the title of Prince Consort upon the queen's ascension, as well as Duke of Edinburgh. The last model for this was Prince Albert, husband of Queen Victoria (who was similarly born, in his own right, Prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha). One would suspect that any similar male consorts would be similarly styled, though we won't see it again in our lifetimes if the succession occurs as it should. Bonus fact is that last year, Clarence House clarified that Camilla will be known as "The Princess Consort" upon Charles' ascension, so as not to seem as contentious. But she will actually be "Queen Camilla" regardless of how she's referred to, similar to how she actually is Princess of Wales even though she doesn't make use of the title.
That greatly decreases the chances of my godson marrying the baby. Sigh.
I dunno... Didn't the Queen just sign into law a gay marriage bill?
(just being silly, although - mbcdefg: would that even be possible, albeit unlikely as hell? it's now legal in England...)
ETA: mbcdefg - holy crap am I impressed at not only your knowledge on this stuff, and your willingness to type out the explanations... they're a whole lot easier to give out when spoken than when written... titles are crazy things.
Although Prince Philip is not titled Prince Consort, like Prince Albert was (which was a gift from Queen Victoria to her husband). He is indeed the queen's consort, but Prince Consort is not among his titles. I personally thought we'd see the queen grant him this title as a Jubilee gift or their 65th anniversary/his 90th birthday gift, but that didn't happen ... rumor is that Prince Philip is pretty low-key and doesn't like a lot of pomp. She DID make him Lord High Admiral of the Navy or something along those lines, though, since he gave up his promising and beloved naval career to support her as the queen.
You're also correct about the statement about Camilla being Princess Consort rather than queen, although I wouldn't be surprised if "Queen Camilla" isn't totally off the table. IMO she's paid her dues, the public has warmed to her, and I think Queen Elizabeth actually likes her (although the decision is ultimately up to Charles once he's king). And they were on a charitable visit earlier this year and someone asked Charles about Camilla being queen one day and he said something like, "We'll have to wait and see." So who knows if it'll actually happen or not. I think the Princess Consort thing was released when they got married to calm the Diana supporters.
audette, I've wondered that myself! The monarch is the head of the Church of England so I guess it depends on what the church's views on gay marriage are by that time. Although I can't personally see why it'd make a difference because (a) it's not like the monarch holds any real power anyway, and (b) people are people!
If Harry has kids while the queen is alive, they won't automatically be princes/princesses. It's her choice if she wants to grant that to them or not. If they're just Lord/Lady while the queen is alive, idk if they get an upgrade to Prince(ss) once Charles is king ... I've always wondered that!
They don't get an upgrade. All children of the eldest (William) of the Prince of Wales (Charles) will be Prince/ss (no "Lady" for a girl). Children of other children of the Prince of Wales (Harry) will be styled per their father's title. In this case, it's likely that Harry would be given a dukedom upon his marriage (like William), and so they would be styled accordingly. They could always get an 'upgrade' from whoever is monarch at that point, but it wouldn't be automatic. And their style wouldn't get an upgrade with a change in monarch (like because Charles ascends to the throne).
Thanks for clarifying!
I can see Harry's kids just being Lord/Lady whatever if they're born during the queen's reign. Charles wants to slim down the royal family (and the payrolls), and Harry's kids would be lower in the line of succession anyway so it's not like they'd have a really good chance at being monarch like William's kid(s). And they'd still be part of the family as the grandchildren (Charles), and later nieces/nephews (William) and then cousins (New Baby) of the monarch and they'd attend the big events and I'm sure they'd get housing and stuff like that, so they'd get a lot of the perks while avoiding some of the pressure. Not a bad deal if you ask me.
And from what I've gathered about William and Harry, I'm sure they'd welcome any possible opportunity for them and their families to live more "normal" lives.