Half the Sky: Turning Oppression Into Opportunity Worldwide is a great read. It's not just about prostitution but does include some horrific stories and statistics.
summer and I watched this when I visited her last. As I recall both me and her H were cursing up a storm.
Post by lyssbobiss, Command, B613 on Apr 7, 2014 9:56:30 GMT -5
First, I consider myself "sex positive" but I will say I think a lot of people will call you "not sex positive" if you question any sexual act between consenting adults, or imply that something is somehow imbalanced or maybe unhealthy. Sex positive doesn't mean that I ignore that women are demoralized.
Here's the thing. I would love to think of sex work as an empowering career choice and it's fulfilling and amazing and all of that. I WISH it were like that. And I'm sure that for a lot of people it is like that. But a lot of these prostitution stories start to feel to me a bit like the Stanford Prison Experiment. Even if everyone starts on even ground, if a consumer of a sex work good starts to play a role of power, it can go to his head, and he could start treating the person like she is less-than him. He could treat her inhumanely. Does it always go this way? No. But social psychology says that a lot of us are not capable of self-regulation, and THAT'S why I'm very wary of sex work.
"This prick is asking for someone here to bring him to task Somebody give me some dirt on this vacuous mass so we can at last unmask him I'll pull the trigger on it, someone load the gun and cock it While we were all watching, he got Washington in his pocket."
First, I consider myself "sex positive" but I will say I think a lot of people will call you "not sex positive" if you question any sexual act between consenting adults, or imply that something is somehow imbalanced or maybe unhealthy. Sex positive doesn't mean that I ignore that women are demoralized.
Here's the thing. I would love to think of sex work as an empowering career choice and it's fulfilling and amazing and all of that. I WISH it were like that. And I'm sure that for a lot of people it is like that. But a lot of these prostitution stories start to feel to me a bit like the Stanford Prison Experiment. Even if everyone starts on even ground, if a consumer of a sex work good starts to play a role of power, it can go to his head, and he could start treating the person like she is less-than him. He could treat her inhumanely. Does it always go this way? No. But social psychology says that a lot of us are not capable of self-regulation, and THAT'S why I'm very wary of sex work.
Thank you for mentioning this. And shout out to summer who posted a link to it about a year ago.
I do not think that prostitutes are to blame for bad marriages infidelity etc. Ha! I think that's a sloppy misreading of what I said.
My only point is that, sure, wrap up legalized prostitution in whatever pretty palatable package you want to, but don't call it pro woman or pro feminism. There is a lot of damage done to many women, including women downstream, like the wives of johns, that makes the "pro woman" label inapplicable.
Eta: correcting the heinous spelling of prostitutes. Brain still on weekend mode...
I do not think that prostittes are to blame for bad marriages infidelity etc. Ha! I think that's a sloppy misreading of what I said.
My only point is that, sure, wrap up legalized prostitution in whatever pretty palatable package you want to, but don't call it pro woman or pro feminism. There is a lot of damage done to many women, including women downstream, like the wives of johns, that makes the "pro woman" label inapplicable.
No, I didn't think that's what you meant either. Only that prostitution is in the end, detrimental to us all.
We all actually engaged with you. You're only peacing out because you cannot come up with more justification for this really odd opinion you're clinging to.
And you're clinging to the idea that it's some strange thing for people to judge you for your opinion. I'm sure people judge me for mine. That's fine. I'm totally okay with that because I own my opinions and think I my reasons for them are sound. If I feel uncomfortable with judgement I take for an opinion, I really do feel like it's a sign that I need to reassess.
Yeah, I totally gave you the side-eye when you said you weren't a feminist. C'mon woman!
Yeah, I totally gave you the side-eye when you said you weren't a feminist. C'mon woman!
My problem with feminism and the reason I don't identify myself as one is because the definition is fluid. Some people would call me a feminist. Others would say I am not because I am fairly conservative politically and I'm fairly pro-life. I don't wish to have my broad range of opinions undermines by getting bogged down in the definitions, if that makes sense.
My feelings aren't hurt by being labeled a feminist. But they are very much uninterested in being disqualified from being a feminist or watching people bicker over what exactly makes a feminist or makes me a feminist. So I don't identify as one.
My other issue with feminism leads back to #solidarityisforwhitewomen. A lot of stuff doesn't speak to me because my experience as a woman of color is different. I done had toLean In all my life. Ban Bossy, chile please. If I'm not Bossy, I totally overlooked.
Yeah, I totally gave you the side-eye when you said you weren't a feminist. C'mon woman!
My problem with feminism and the reason I don't identify myself as one is because the definition is fluid. Some people would call me a feminist. Others would say I am not because I am fairly conservative politically and I'm fairly pro-life. I don't wish to have my broad range of opinions undermines by getting bogged down in the definitions, if that makes sense.
My feelings aren't hurt by being labeled a feminist. But they are very much uninterested in being disqualified from being a feminist or watching people bicker over what exactly makes a feminist or makes me a feminist. So I don't identify as one.
Ah, so you're not a "perfect" feminist. J/K But honestly, why is it okay to be a piss-poor recycler/eco person and try to learn more and become more eco-conscious, but it's not okay to be a feminist who believes in women/men equality and learn more to become more feminist?
I personally wish that every woman was a self-proclaimed feminist and encouraged their S/Os and kids to embrace it too. At least owning the word stops the stigma with feminist = feminazi and anti-man, but also makes the word and act of being for equality for women and men more normalized.
sugarglider - now it's prostitution, SAHMs, trying on undies at home and feminism.
My other issue with feminism leads back to #solidarityisforwhitewomen. A lot of stuff doesn't speak to me because my experience as a woman of color is different. I done had toLean In all my life. Ban Bossy, chile please. If I'm not Bossy, I totally overlooked.
I get what you're saying, but to be fair, the Ban Bossy is not about stopping girls from being "bossy" but about not negatively labeling assertive girls and women.
So nothing about Ban Bossy would say you shouldn't be "bossy."
My other issue with feminism leads back to #solidarityisforwhitewomen. A lot of stuff doesn't speak to me because my experience as a woman of color is different. I done had toLean In all my life. Ban Bossy, chile please. If I'm not Bossy, I totally overlooked.
That I agree with. I'm bossy as hell and that is why I am where I am in my career. I think redefine bossy as awesomsauce is better than banning it. But I also have never finished "Lean In" so maybe I need to read it before I criticize. Maybe she did a lot of research on women in the workforce before writing and I just didn't get to that part since it was mostly a memoir-type of book based on her experience when I stopped.
Ah, so you're not a "perfect" feminist. J/K But honestly, why is it okay to be a piss-poor recycler/eco person and try to learn more and become more eco-conscious, but it's not okay to be a feminist who believes in women/men equality and learn more to become more feminist?
I personally wish that every woman was a self-proclaimed feminist and encouraged their S/Os and kids to embrace it too. At least owning the word stops the stigma with feminist = feminazi and anti-man, but also makes the word and act of being for equality for women and men more normalized.
sugarglider - now it's prostitution, SAHMs, trying on undies at home and feminism.
I don't want to become "more feminist." I don't believe I am deficient in information and if I only knew more, surely I would change my opinions to be in line with other feminists. That idea actually annoys me. As does the notion that the notion of "feminazi and anti-man" is what keeps women from identifying as one. Rush Limbaugh isn't why I don't identify with the feminist label. It's other feminists who tell me too my face I cannot be a feminist who do.
I'll just chime in to say that I was totally pro-legalization until I dug deeper a while back. Just in case anyone googles old threads and calls me out on it lol.
At some point in my life, I definitely was more pro-legalization than I am now. There's a lot of widespread misinformation about systems with legalized prostitution. I think a lot of people compare it to drugs, or at least pot, and you hear a lot about both being regulated in the Netherlands, so they get lumped in together, when they are much, much different beasts.
My other issue with feminism leads back to #solidarityisforwhitewomen. A lot of stuff doesn't speak to me because my experience as a woman of color is different. I done had toLean In all my life. Ban Bossy, chile please. If I'm not Bossy, I totally overlooked.
That I agree with. I'm bossy as hell and that is why I am where I am in my career. I think redefine bossy as awesomsauce is better than banning it. But I also have never finished "Lean In" so maybe I need to read it before I criticize. Maybe she did a lot of research on women in the workforce before writing and I just didn't get to that part since it was mostly a memoir-type of book based on her experience when I stopped.
But that's essentially what Ban Bossy is about. It's saying, hey, we have this word with negative connotations that we apply to behavior when girls exhibit it. That behavior is not negative, so we should stop using a negative word to describe it.
Whether we "redefine" or "ban" bossy is kind of beside the point, which is to encourage and celebrate girls and women who demonstrate leadership abilities.
I happen to be a fan of Ban Bossy because I think we'll have a lot more success with calling girls and women assertive than with changing how people view the word "bossy."
My problem with Ban Bossy is that there are bossy as hell people in this world, some of them women who do need to be told to take it back a notch or 8 and regroup. I don't believe that telling my child when she's being bossy is discouraging her from leadership. Bossy and leadership is not the same thing and it's probably even more important for women who are often isolated and marginalized to learn the difference.
The movement should be to encourage people to look at the difference between the two and then to assess if they are accurately labeling someone bossy because they are or because they are leading with a vagina.
Ah, so you're not a "perfect" feminist. J/K But honestly, why is it okay to be a piss-poor recycler/eco person and try to learn more and become more eco-conscious, but it's not okay to be a feminist who believes in women/men equality and learn more to become more feminist?
I personally wish that every woman was a self-proclaimed feminist and encouraged their S/Os and kids to embrace it too. At least owning the word stops the stigma with feminist = feminazi and anti-man, but also makes the word and act of being for equality for women and men more normalized.
sugarglider - now it's prostitution, SAHMs, trying on undies at home and feminism.
I don't want to become "more feminist." I don't believe I am deficient in information and if I only knew more, surely I would change my opinions to be in line with other feminists. That idea actually annoys me. As does the notion that the notion of "feminazi and anti-man" is what keeps women from identifying as one. Rush Limbaugh isn't why I don't identify with the feminist label. It's other feminists who tell me too my face I cannot be a feminist who do.
You're right, I misspoke with the analogy to eco-conscious. But you said you believe women and men should be equal and that is the feminist movement's core belief. I don't besmirch your knowledge of the feminist movement, I personally, just think it does well for future generations if more people can relate and identify with the continued need for the feminist movement.
You're right, I misspoke with the analogy to eco-conscious. But you said you believe women and men should be equal and that is the feminist movement's core belief. I don't besmirch your knowledge of the feminist movement, I personally, just think it does well for future generations if more people can relate and identify with the continued need for the feminist movement.
I don't think I have to identify as a feminist to contribute to the feminist movement. Just as one doesn't have to march on Washington to contribute to the Civil Rights movement.
Raising children who view men and women as equal, who seek out partners who view men and women as equal, who views prospective new hires as equals, who supports HR policies that view men and women as equal, who fight back against the widespread shitty portrayals of women in media is far more valuable to the feminist movement than what I personally choose to call myself, particularly when in my opinion refusing to let my conversations get bogged down in terminology allows some my arguments to go forward with less distraction.
That I agree with. I'm bossy as hell and that is why I am where I am in my career. I think redefine bossy as awesomsauce is better than banning it. But I also have never finished "Lean In" so maybe I need to read it before I criticize. Maybe she did a lot of research on women in the workforce before writing and I just didn't get to that part since it was mostly a memoir-type of book based on her experience when I stopped.
But that's essentially what Ban Bossy is about. It's saying, hey, we have this word with negative connotations that we apply to behavior when girls exhibit it. That behavior is not negative, so we should stop using a negative word to describe it.
Whether we "redefine" or "ban" bossy is kind of beside the point, which is to encourage and celebrate girls and women who demonstrate leadership abilities.
I happen to be a fan of Ban Bossy because I think we'll have a lot more success with calling girls and women assertive than with changing how people view the word "bossy."
Yeah, I probably should have finished the book and the videos going around the web are mostly for elementary school-aged kids who need it simple, and I don't hate the word "bossy" b/c I have been called that most of my life and instead of feeling bad about it, I owned it.
That said, I was told by 3 male bosses in December that I was "sometimes too assertive" and "make project decisions quickly without explaining my reasoning" as negatives/something to work on in my last review. My response was, "Thanks for the feedback, I disagree with those two assessments and decided not to add them to my 2014 goals. However, I do have {insert team project name} where I will explain my decisions to the group as needed."
The point of "ban bossy" is that a male and female can act in the exact same way and a female is "bossy" while a man is "take charge."
Of course not every quality/action/personality trait that encompasses "bossy" is a positive and sometimes both men and women new to be told to stop being assholes, stop telling other people what to do when there is reason for those orders and so on.
But the point of it is that you rarely, if ever, hear a man described as bossy. A man may be an ass, he may be a leader, he may be in charge, he may be a "take no shit" kind of guy, but he is rarely bossy. So that's what the movement is about. Not automatically changing behavior, but changing how that behavior is viewed between the two sexes.
Kind of like how I was told to "be ladylike" in middle school bc I told boys they were wrong or bc I talked too loud, and teachers just shrugged at boys and said they were just being boys, oh well.
I don't want to become "more feminist." I don't believe I am deficient in information and if I only knew more, surely I would change my opinions to be in line with other feminists. That idea actually annoys me. As does the notion that the notion of "feminazi and anti-man" is what keeps women from identifying as one. Rush Limbaugh isn't why I don't identify with the feminist label. It's other feminists who tell me too my face I cannot be a feminist who do.
You're right, I misspoke with the analogy to eco-conscious. But you said you believe women and men should be equal and that is the feminist movement's core belief. I don't besmirch your knowledge of the feminist movement, I personally, just think it does well for future generations if more people can relate and identify with the continued need for the feminist movement.
I totally agree with you, downtoearth. I am proud to be a feminist in that I believe all people should have equal opportunity no matter their gender. It drives me bonkers when people associate feminism with man-hating; I adore my husband and many of the men in my life, and that doesn't in any way interfere with my understanding that I should have just as many rights as them.