Post by Velar Fricative on Apr 19, 2014 20:15:22 GMT -5
On the one hand, no one *has* to live in Manhattan. There are four other boroughs plus several surrounding counties. Manhattan is another planet compared to the rest of the city and metro area and I wish more people outside of the area understood that. Not every part is VHCOL.
On the other hand, a Manhattan that can only be afforded by elite domestic and (increasingly, perhaps even majority) foreign investors and/or the 1% pretty much sucks. Manhattan went from one extreme (a high-crime area people fled from in droves) to the other. So while it is easy to dismiss the woes of people who can't afford a million dollar home, this article is much more than that - most people in this area can't afford a million dollar home or anywhere near it, and they are being shut out of an entire borough that used to have much more socioeconomic diversity. Market demand blah blah blah, but shit has gotten insane.
V - I wasn't willing to compromise that either. I was West 12th and Washington for a decade, until the doctor said it was twins . Still miss it!
I lived in that area when I first moved to NY and was back there today- I miss it so much. TBH, I miss living on the UWS even more and would love to raise my family there, but there is NO WAY I could ever afford that. so outer boroughs it is. I couldn't get past the 3rd sentence of this article b/c it stressed me out so much.
My sister just moved with her husband from a $7K/mo 2BD in Tribeca (really nice but not spectacular) to a 2BR condo in Chicago at the same monthly cost out of pocket. The difference? The Chicago place is in what I think is Chicago's nicest building. 360 lake and city views, spa, hotel services ... NYC is just INSANE.
I'm having a hard time jiving that the average household income in Manhattan is $65k, but places to live are selling for $1MM. Where do all of these "middle class" people live, since they are specifying that they are from Manhattan?
Not snarky, genuinely confused.
This is a good question. I know what we could afford here if our H HI was 65k and it isn't touching 1M
I find it really hard to muster any sympathy for people with a million dollar budget who can't find a decent apartment in Manhattan. Cry me a river.
Okay, if you have no sympathy for the millionaires (fair, I suppose), extrapolate a bit -- what about all the people with sub-$1 million budgets who can't afford a not-even-close-to-decent apartment? Â Median household income in Manhattan is around $65,000. Â If a "decent" apartment can't be found for $1 million and the median sale price last quarter was $972,000, those who can't ever dream of a $1 million home are kind of screwed, no?
Well, that's my point. The NYTimes isn't writing about those people. It's like some finance guy needs to buy a $2m fixer. Boo f-ing hoo.
ETA: This is more about my frustration with the tone-deafness of The Times than a failure to comprehend the underlying issue. My husband is a doctor and we can't afford Manhattan. Not that anyone should feel bad for us. But what about the true public servants?
I'm having a hard time jiving that the average household income in Manhattan is $65k, but places to live are selling for $1MM. Where do all of these "middle class" people live, since they are specifying that they are from Manhattan?
Not snarky, genuinely confused.
My guess is that it's because Manhattan is larger than just the uber expensive and rich UWS. The median income includes people that live in Harlem, midtown, LES, etc who can't afford million dollar apartments, so they rent. None of the people I know that live in Manhattan make 6 figures, but they also don't live on the UWS.
I'm having a hard time jiving that the average household income in Manhattan is $65k, but places to live are selling for $1MM. Where do all of these "middle class" people live, since they are specifying that they are from Manhattan?
Not snarky, genuinely confused.
Upper Manhattan, Harlem, or teeeeeny apartments with a thousand roommates. Some luxury rental buildings in great neighborhoods get a subsidy for making a (small) portion of the building "affordable housing" (instead of market value) but from what I've heard the wait lists are insanely long.
It's a city of renters. I think I'm the only Manhattan MMer who has admitted ownership, though I don't think I'm the only poster who owns (reveal yourselves!). It's just not the norm here, even for those who can technically afford it.
I will say, anecdotally, I think the market between the $1-2 mm starter market and the ultra-luxury $20+mm market is starting to cool a bit from last year. . At the beginning of the year we had an accepted offer on an apt but we chose to back out right before signing the contract. That place is still available, as is the other one we were deciding between which has already lowered its price by more than $100K and still no bites. This would've been unheard of last year.
This is crappy news to hear. We are trying to sell 2 apts (a studio and one bedroom) that are next door to each other for about 1.2. Oh well, may as well keep renting them out.
Sorry if my post was unclear. I meant that the $1-2mm range and the $20mm range are still red hot but that the market between $3-20 was starting to slow ever so slightly. Thus you're probably going to get lots of interest, not that I'm an expert or anything!
I'm having a hard time jiving that the average household income in Manhattan is $65k, but places to live are selling for $1MM. Where do all of these "middle class" people live, since they are specifying that they are from Manhattan?
Not snarky, genuinely confused.
Upper Manhattan, Harlem, or teeeeeny apartments with a thousand roommates. Some luxury rental buildings in great neighborhoods get a subsidy for making a (small) portion of the building "affordable housing" (instead of market value) but from what I've heard the wait lists are insanely long.
It's a city of renters. I think I'm the only Manhattan MMer who has admitted ownership, though I don't think I'm the only poster who owns (reveal yourselves!). It's just not the norm here, even for those who can technically afford it.
I remember that episode of SATC where Carrie was shocked all her friends owned....lol.
I'm having a hard time jiving that the average household income in Manhattan is $65k, but places to live are selling for $1MM. Where do all of these "middle class" people live, since they are specifying that they are from Manhattan?
Not snarky, genuinely confused.
Upper Manhattan, Harlem, or teeeeeny apartments with a thousand roommates. Some luxury rental buildings in great neighborhoods get a subsidy for making a (small) portion of the building "affordable housing" (instead of market value) but from what I've heard the wait lists are insanely long.
It's a city of renters. I think I'm the only Manhattan MMer who has admitted ownership, though I don't think I'm the only poster who owns (reveal yourselves!). It's just not the norm here, even for those who can technically afford it.
Yeah, we know tons of people who own. We also know tons of people who could buy a place if they wanted but choose to rent. We also know people who rent because they can't afford to buy. This city runs the gamut.
Upper Manhattan, Harlem, or teeeeeny apartments with a thousand roommates. Some luxury rental buildings in great neighborhoods get a subsidy for making a (small) portion of the building "affordable housing" (instead of market value) but from what I've heard the wait lists are insanely long.
It's a city of renters. I think I'm the only Manhattan MMer who has admitted ownership, though I don't think I'm the only poster who owns (reveal yourselves!). It's just not the norm here, even for those who can technically afford it.
Yeah, we know tons of people who own. We also know tons of people who could buy a place if they wanted but choose to rent. We also know people who rent because they can't afford to buy. This city runs the gamut.
Runs the gamut is probably the most apt and all-encompassing description of this crazy city.
I know people who own and, in most cases, even paid under $1 million for their apartments. The big difference is they don't have kids so a 1-bedroom in a so-so school district was sufficient.
Then there are people like my in-laws who paid $75,000 for their place back when everyone was fleeing the city and now-trendy neighborhoods like Williamsburg, Park Slope and Alphabet City were places you would never, ever go ... they're easily sitting on $2m in real estate. I grew up here and know a number of people whose parents have stories like that.
My hope is to retire to NYC one day. Since the twins came along, it became obvious that Manhattan and private school for two plus a life wasn't going to happen on H and I's (very good) salaries. I might be ok with parts of Brooklyn, but it wouldn't be my first choice.
I'm part of the problem. Ha!
Its also why we own in Boston but visit H's family in NYC every chance we get.
Manhattan is like owning a boat---its awesome when you know someone who owns one (lives there) but you don't have to pay the expensive upkeep.
I'm having a hard time jiving that the average household income in Manhattan is $65k, but places to live are selling for $1MM. Where do all of these "middle class" people live, since they are specifying that they are from Manhattan?
Not snarky, genuinely confused.
My guess is that it's because Manhattan is larger than just the uber expensive and rich UWS. The median income includes people that live in Harlem, midtown, LES, etc who can't afford million dollar apartments, so they rent. None of the people I know that live in Manhattan make 6 figures, but they also don't live on the UWS.
I think the area makes the difference - and that is clear by some posts in here where it is mentioned people won't move to certain areas, so they are essentially 'locked' into more expensive areas.
I don't think some of the areas around Manhattan are better - if you look at Westchester, Short Hills, etc you are paying a million plus (and often way more). You get bigger homes though, so I guess that is the benefit.
I know people who own and, in most cases, even paid under $1 million for their apartments. The big difference is they don't have kids so a 1-bedroom in a so-so school district was sufficient.
Then there are people like my in-laws who paid $75,000 for their place back when everyone was fleeing the city and now-trendy neighborhoods like Williamsburg, Park Slope and Alphabet City were places you would never, ever go ... they're easily sitting on $2m in real estate. I grew up here and know a number of people whose parents have stories like that.
My FIL still talks about the 5 story townhouse on west 75th (just off CPW) he almost bought in 1970. MIL was pregnant and insisted on moving to the burbs.
I find it really hard to muster any sympathy for people with a million dollar budget who can't find a decent apartment in Manhattan. Cry me a river.
Okay, if you have no sympathy for the millionaires (fair, I suppose), extrapolate a bit -- what about all the people with sub-$1 million budgets who can't afford a not-even-close-to-decent apartment? Median household income in Manhattan is around $65,000. If a "decent" apartment can't be found for $1 million and the median sale price last quarter was $972,000, those who can't ever dream of a $1 million home are kind of screwed, no?
And to expand on this a bit, the median HHI for UES area is still under $100K.
We're in So Cal, make just under $140K and we're having a hard time committing to a $500K house just so we can move to a better neighborhood.
NYC'ers have to worry about saving for $200K DP, $1K\month HOA fees, and budget for tips/x'mas gifts to door men and the rest of the building staff. And don't even dream about having a yard.
Buying a house @ a $100K HHI is impossible. $250K and higher is more like it for NYC.
I'm having a hard time jiving that the average household income in Manhattan is $65k, but places to live are selling for $1MM. Where do all of these "middle class" people live, since they are specifying that they are from Manhattan?
Not snarky, genuinely confused.
They rent. (Though the median rent in Manhattan is $3100, and many landlords will require you to prove annual income of at least 40x the monthly rent (or to have a cosigner who earns 100x monthly rent)). Or they don't live in Manhattan. Or, in the case of the 20-something, they share an apartment with a bunch of roommates.
But also, there's a huge income disparity in Manhattan, so there isn't much of a middle middle class. There are a lot of lower income people in subsidized housing etc., and a lot of upper middle class and upwards.
(breathes a sigh of relief from over in New Jersey)
I couldn't keep up with the housing costs. It was making my life miserable in so many, many ways. Surprise pregnancy was the thing that finally saved me from being really depressed from living in Manhattan.