Lost my job (attorney) - need work help

[aeworkhelp1]

I am a fairly regular poster posting under an ae because (1) there's a lot of $$ info here, and (2) I don't want to be recognized by potential employers.  If you figure out who I am please don't out me!!

I am currently employed as in house counsel for a Fortune 500 Company.  The company is laying off 80% of it's legal department nationwide.  The people who remain will either change job descriptions and salaries or can keep the same job if they choose to move out of state which is not an option for me.  Fortunately I have 3 job offers right now, I'm just having trouble deciding which route to go.  The market is pretty good where I am but I'm not sure how long it will stay that way.  If I leave I will receive approximately 30k in severance, if I stay (job #1) I get no severance)

Info on current job, which I LOVE:
    Description: Spend 10% of my time litigating on behalf of the company, 40% overseeing litigation by outside counsel, 50% training corporate employees and answering corporate and employee related ?s
    Salary: $125k (low for in house but actually competitive for my industry)  
    Schedule: No billables.  M-Th, roughly 36 hours a week (still full time), never work weekends or holidays, LOTS of flexibility 
    Commute:  10 minutes
    Benefits: 4 weeks vacation, separate sick time, a matched 401k and pension.  No stock options.


Background about me.  I am in my 10th year of practice.  I have 2 kids under the age of 5 and a husband who owns his own law firm.  I value quality time over salary.  We travel often. My husband makes considerably more than me and we could live very comfortably off of his salary alone but I choose to work because I love working. 

Job #1- Same company as current company but a different position.  Pay would decrease but benefits would stay the same.  Work load would increase considerably, so much so that my schedule would change.  
    Description:  Spend 100% of my time litigating the same types of cases that I currently spend 10% of my time litigating.
    Salary:  $115k  (decreased salary since they are taking jobs and dividing them into 2, if that makes sense)
    Schedule:  No billables.  M-Th on paper, but since work load will increase I imagine I'll be working around 50 hours a week up from 36 or so.  Probably lots of weekends since there's lots of trial work.                     Travel within state several times a week (1 hour flight each way every other week, roughly)   
    Commute:  Same as current
    Benefits:  Same as current

Pros are that I know the company well and am extremely well respected.  I also hate change so leaving freaks me out. Cons are the pay decrease AND the fact that I wouldn't get my severance and the hours would increase considerably.   There's also a lack of knowledgeable support staff since existing staff has little experience handling in house litigation.  I also don't really love the litigation part of my job and frankly I think there are aspects of my job that I'm much better at than litigation.  Also the atmosphere will completely change and it looks like I may get stuck working with one of the attorneys who isn't very social and doesn't have the best work ethic.  This wouldn't really impact me directly, although one of the biggest things I like about my job is the people I work with and that won't be the case any longer.  Perhaps the biggest con--I think the job is temporary and more of a transition until they eventually close the local legal department down completely (in 3-5 years, we think).  Management claims that's not true, but everyone at my level in the company believes otherwise.

Job #2- Local satellite office of a large, well respected national law firm.  Welcome [back] to the world of billable hours.
    Description:  100% of my time litigating the same types of cases that I currently spend 10% of my time with
    Salary:  $140k plus bonuses for origination (current company will hire me for outside counsel work, but amount of $$ from that won't be very high)
    Schedule:  2000 billables a year, however you can achieve them.  Lots of work available.  Probably lots of weekends since there's lots of trial work. Little to no travel.  Hiring partner says it's excused if     you don't make hours if you bring in business and you are encouraged to market for clients (each employee given a credit card with unlimited spending power to market)
    Commute:  30 minutes
    Benefits:  no set vacation, just meet billables and you can take time off.  401k match is the same, no pension.  

Pros are the salary and I love the people I'd work with (although I'm female and they are all male).  Cons are the billables and schedule plus the longer commute.  Also, this is a satellite office of a larger firm and the local office is only 2 months old, so there are probably lots of kinks to work out.  I would prefer to move away from litigation and this would mean going back in to litigation 100%.

Job #3- Position at my state law school (where I also happened to go to Undergrad) as the Director of their Career Services department.  
    Description:  Work with the local legal community to find jobs for students, set up on campus interviews, network, etc.  
    Salary:  $70k with annual raises, but it's a state school so I don't think they would be very significant.  The girl who works there now started 5  years ago and makes 10k more than when she started.
    Schedule: M-Th. no set hours, VERY flexible, I'd probably be home by 4:30 every day.  Some travel, which I actually enjoy
    Commute:  10 minutes
    Benefits:  65 days vacation (yes, 65), separate sick time.  401k and pension is great, similar to my current employer if not better, free campus gym (which I'd use often), tickets to sporting events (we are big fans and currently pay roughly 5k a year for this)

Pros are that I think I'd do very well in this role.  The people I'd be working with are people I've known for 15+ years and there's a great deal of mutual respect.  My direct supervisor is a very good friend.  There would be lots of fun benefits like invites to galas and community events and free admission to concerts/sporting events, etc.  I have lots of friends on campus (most are mommies) so I'd love the social aspect.  One other benefit is that they subsidize tuition at a very well rated nearby preschool (practically on campus), which would save me roughly 15k a year from my kids' current private schools (for the next 4 or so years). Con is the HUGE decrease in pay.  Also that the position (like all positions at the University) is contingent on financing, although they don't seem concerned.

Job #4- No offer yet, just interviewed last week.  Think I have a 50/50 chance of getting it, lots of applicants.  
    Description:  In house for an up and coming ecommerce company based in my city.  Brand new, complicated area of law TOTALLY different from what I do now.
    Salary:  $130  (lots of potential for growth, just not a lot to pay out right now since company is newer)
    Schedule:  M-F, 8-6 (roughly 45-50 hours a week)
    Commute:  10 minutes
    Benefits:  No set vacation but seems fairly flexible, no pension or 401k but they may introduce options to buy in to company (which I would do), discount on products (which I'd use)

Pros are that it's a cool company and looks like a neat role.  Cons are that it's really small and currently 85% male.  Company is doing well now but who knows how long that will last.  They are involved with lots of litigation, some which could greatly impact profitability (and therefore my job).  Learning a totally new area of law would suck since I've practiced in the same field for 10 years and I think I'm good at it.  

I've gone back and forth on this for a while.  Believe it or not I'm leaning towards Job #3 even with the roughly 50% salary cut.  I could see myself retiring with this job, the others I'm not so sure about.  I'm pretty sure I'm not interested in Job #2 even with the salary increase because I can't stomach the thought of going back to billable hours.  With Job #1 a lot would remain status quo but I'd lose the chance at 30k severance AND I'd get a slightly decreased salary.  Plus job stability isn't as good.  It's just so hard to stomach a 50% salary cut even if I don't really need the money.  I'm also considering holding out for #4, but I need to give an answer ASAP so in holding out I'd lose out on Job #2 and #3.

I can also keep looking.  My current job doesn't end for another 30 days so I have time to find something.  I just feel like #3 would be a great opportunity to do something fun for a University I love and in an environment where I'd thrive and I'm nervous to pass it up even with other options out there.

If you made it this far, THANK YOU!  Thoughts?  To other lawyers (or anyone for that matter)--WWYD?                  
          
        

[asoctoberfalls]

I'm not a lawyer, but I'd take Job #3 in a heartbeat since you don't seem to need the money. The quality of life in that position just seems amazing. I'd kill for 65 days of vaca (!!!) per year, especially since you value travel and family time.

Second choice would be job #4. I'd pretty much eliminate #2 right off the bat.

[kadams767]

I honestly would probably be leaning towards #3. The $15k savings on preschool for 4 years helps offset the salary decrease in my mind, at least a little. Same with only working 4 days per week, though I understand that's your current situation as well. The other jobs do not sound like 4 day work weeks would be possible.

I think you are in a unique position in that you can afford that kind of pay cut and should seriously consider it. The firm job just sounds like it would be very difficult to transition into from in-house. 2000 hours is difficult no matter what, but with two young kids and a love of travel, it sounds miserable to me. You would definitely need to work a good deal of nights and weekends to make up for any vacation time over a few days in order to hit that. How long has it been since you've been in a billable hours job?

What do you realistically think about your chances of originating business for that firm?

[aeworkhelp1]

Jul 13, 2014 6:54:56 GMT -5 kadams767 said:

I honestly would probably be leaning towards #3. The $15k savings on preschool for 4 years helps offset the salary decrease in my mind, at least a little. Same with only working 4 days per week, though I understand that's your current situation as well. The other jobs do not sound like 4 day work weeks would be possible.

I think you are in a unique position in that you can afford that kind of pay cut and should seriously consider it. The firm job just sounds like it would be very difficult to transition into from in-house. 2000 hours is difficult no matter what, but with two young kids and a love of travel, it sounds miserable to me. You would definitely need to work a good deal of nights and weekends to make up for any vacation time over a few days in order to hit that. How long has it been since you've been in a billable hours job?

What do you realistically think about your chances of originating business for that firm?

I had a billable hours job for 3 years before leaving for my current job 7 years ago, so it's been a while since I've billed.  I think I'll do well with origination because it's a small legal community and I'm pretty well liked and actively involved in the community.

[teatimefor2]

I'm not a lawyer, but given all the information you've provided combined with your desire not to be primarily in litigation, I would go with job 3. Although lower salary, the other benefits (vacation, preschool savings, sports savings, a solid network) would weigh heavily as long as your income is extra.

[aeworkhelp1]

Jul 13, 2014 6:56:52 GMT -5 Stan said:

Not a lawyer, so take this as you will. I would honestly go with 3 or 4. I would not take a pay cut for way, way more work. I wouldn't want billable hours. Is 3 a job that would look crappy on the resume later? Because if so I'd go with 4.

I thought about how it would look on my resume.  I don't think it would look great if I tried to transition back into litigation, but I'm not sure I'd be interested in doing that.

I should also mention, DH practices in the same area of law where I've practiced for the past 10 years.  If I took job #3 and down the line it didn't work out, I could go to work for DH's firm.  I could work from home so we wouldn't have much interaction.  This isn't ideal but it's always an option down the road.

[ECB]

If money isn't an issue, 3. Im very much about quality time too.

[Deleted]

Not a lawyer, but I am a university administrator. I love working in higher ed. The pay does suck in general, so see if you can negotiate the salary up a bit, thought there may not be wiggle room. We got a 3% raise this year in my department.

In terms of benefits, it really can't be beat and it's not a high stress environment more than a few times a year (beginning & end of semester mostly).

[Poppy]

If you don't think you'd be bored with #3, I'd take that one. You aren't crazy to choose having a life over money, especially if you think you'd love the job itself. Hourly it seems pretty comparable to #2 & 4, especially after taking into consideration the benefits (15k + 5k savings).

[laurenh]

I'm not a lawyer but I would absolutely say job #3 if the salary decrease isn't an issue for your lifestyle and you don't intend to go back into litigation. A job with that kind of benefits and where you know you can actually walk out the door every day at the same time is worth so much more to me than the extra money and stress of additional hours/billables.

[lurknomore]

I'm fairly certain I know who you are and if I'm right, I'd worry about essentially getting out of law at this point because you've always really enjoyed your work. Even here, it seems as though you really enjoy what you do. I would assume that taking the school job would mostly eliminate (or at least make very difficult) your ability to get back into "real law" if you wanted in the future. That being said, I wouldn't be taking your restructured current job for anything, and the firm job you discussed here sounds like another miserable step back. If you're not under a time crunch, I think I would see what happens with the startup and consider that and the school job. Another thing to consider...does the school job provide a tuition benefit for your kids? DH is a professor and all employees get free tuition for their kids at his school. If so, that could be another benefit to consider there.

GL!

[aeworkhelp1]

Jul 13, 2014 7:03:11 GMT -5 @ameliapond said:

Not a lawyer, but I am a university administrator. I love working in higher ed. The pay does suck in general, so see if you can negotiate the salary up a bit, thought there may not be wiggle room. We got a 3% raise this year in my department.

In terms of benefits, it really can't be beat and it's not a high stress environment more than a few times a year (beginning & end of semester mostly).

I already negotiated the salary up to 70k, so there's no more room there. Hopefully there will be raises as I know there have been in the past.

I agree that the benefits seem wonderful.  Thank you for your insight.

[lb2006]

I, too, would take job #3.

I just left a secure job, for a less-secure one purely based on quality of life and time spent with family

[aeworkhelp1]

Jul 13, 2014 7:06:45 GMT -5 lurknomore said:

I'm fairly certain I know who you are and if I'm right, I'd worry about essentially getting out of law at this point because you've always really enjoyed your work. Even here, it seems as though you really enjoy what you do. I would assume that taking the school job would mostly eliminate (or at least make very difficult) your ability to get back into "real law" if you wanted in the future. That being said, I wouldn't be taking your restructured current job for anything, and the firm job you discussed here sounds like another miserable step back. If you're not under a time crunch, I think I would see what happens with the startup and consider that and the school job. Another thing to consider...does the school job provide a tuition benefit for your kids? DH is a professor and all employees get free tuition for their kids at his school. If so, that could be another benefit to consider there.

GL!

You are right about all of this.  I love law and I think I'm good at what I do.  I love my current job but in my industry my company is one of the only ones structured the way it is so the chances of finding the exact same type of gig would be very low.  And honestly I'm not married to being a lawyer and would be ok with getting out of law completely, even if it would mean leaving behind years of knowledge and experience in my practice area. 

There's no tuition benefit that I'm aware of other than the subsidized preschool for my kids and only my youngest can really benefit from that.  Definitely something worth looking in to though, I hadn't really explored anything past preschool.

[marina007]

#3

In a heartbeat.

SO MUCH TIME OFF. So much flexibility. But still totally rewarding work. And stable.

If you calculate the hourly pay, i'm sure it's significantly less of a pay cut compared to the other jobs tbh.

[changedname]

I would take #3. It sounds like an amazing job and with the perks like the tuition and the sports, it would be a fun job.

[aeworkhelp1]

Another thing to add. My husband is very supportive and has told me to do whatever I think is best. He just thinks it's hard to take a 50% paycut when the work load isn't decreased by 50%. I'd be working pretty much the same hours as I do now and I'd have the same level of stress, I'd just be making about half my current salary. Of course there are benefits to the current job that I don't have now, like an extra month and a half of vacation time and fun perks like season tickets to sporting events, but does that all make up for a 50% cut? Does it even matter if I don't necessarily need the money?

He also likes the idea that I'd get 30k severance (after taxes) paid out in a lump sum up front as that would make the pay cut seem a little less drastic.

[mccallister84]

Job 3. No question about it.

[spanikopita]

I'd take job#3 and be thrilled with it. GL !!

[Deleted]

Jul 13, 2014 7:12:02 GMT -5 aeworkhelp1 said:

Jul 13, 2014 7:06:45 GMT -5 lurknomore said:

I'm fairly certain I know who you are and if I'm right, I'd worry about essentially getting out of law at this point because you've always really enjoyed your work. Even here, it seems as though you really enjoy what you do. I would assume that taking the school job would mostly eliminate (or at least make very difficult) your ability to get back into "real law" if you wanted in the future. That being said, I wouldn't be taking your restructured current job for anything, and the firm job you discussed here sounds like another miserable step back. If you're not under a time crunch, I think I would see what happens with the startup and consider that and the school job. Another thing to consider...does the school job provide a tuition benefit for your kids? DH is a professor and all employees get free tuition for their kids at his school. If so, that could be another benefit to consider there.

GL!

You are right about all of this.  I love law and I think I'm good at what I do.  I love my current job but in my industry my company is one of the only ones structured the way it is so the chances of finding the exact same type of gig would be very low.  And honestly I'm not married to being a lawyer and would be ok with getting out of law completely, even if it would mean leaving behind years of knowledge and experience in my practice area. 

There's no tuition benefit that I'm aware of other than the subsidized preschool for my kids and only my youngest can really benefit from that.  Definitely something worth looking in to though, I hadn't really explored anything past preschool.

Tuition remission benefits vary greatly from school to school. Mine is one of the better ones, 90% remission for the employee for up to 2 Bachelors degrees and 1 Masters or Doctoral degree, same for spouses and 100% remission for a Bachelors for any dependents. The Masters/Doctorates are subject to federal income tax but its still a great deal.

[Deleted]

Job 3 without question.

[scout8]

(Ex attorney here)

I would take #3 without question. For me quality of life and being happy at my job trumps money every time. The billable hours one gave me hives just reading about it.

[minzy]

Congrats on having multiple opportunities.  I would think about trying out #3 and reassess in maybe two years.  It will challenge you professionally to do something new, even if it's not technically practicing.  If you decide you don't like it, you will have networked even more and will already be pretty aware of the market given the nature of the job.  

[Deleted]

Haven't read the responses yet but
-can you negotiate for all or part of your severance even if you stayed at your current company, as a result of you taking the pay cut?
-what about your husband's firm? Is his work similar to yours at all such that you could work there, set your own hours, have lower billables, and collect your severance?

Other than that Job 3 sounds really great (65 days vacation when a normal person works ~250 is like 1 day off/week!) and the tuition situation is a fantastic benefit. Good luck!

[heythere]

Jul 13, 2014 6:52:52 GMT -5 asoctoberfalls said:

I'm not a lawyer, but I'd take Job #3 in a heartbeat since you don't seem to need the money. The quality of life in that position just seems amazing. I'd kill for 65 days of vaca (!!!) per year, especially since you value travel and family time.

Second choice would be job #4. I'd pretty much eliminate #2 right off the bat.

I agree with this completely.

[aeworkhelp1]

Jul 13, 2014 7:31:19 GMT -5 @mrsspunky said:

Haven't read the responses yet but
-can you negotiate for all or part of your severance even if you stayed at your current company, as a result of you taking the pay cut?
-what about your husband's firm? Is his work similar to yours at all such that you could work there, set your own hours, have lower billables, and collect your severance?

Other than that Job 3 sounds really great (65 days vacation when a normal person works ~250 is like 1 day off/week!) and the tuition situation is a fantastic benefit. Good luck!

I can't negotiate the severance, the company has made it clear that they are doing us a favor by giving us one of the remaining jobs even if it means getting a pay cut so they won't even consider paying non-displaced employees out.

My husband practices in the same area I do but they don't need the help right now as they just brought on a new equity partner within the past month.  Plus I kind of like having my separate thing going on career-wise.  I think down the line they could definitely use me if whatever I choose now doesn't work out.

[mx27]

Jul 13, 2014 7:29:56 GMT -5 scout8 said:

(Ex attorney here)

I would take #3 without question. For me quality of life and being happy at my job trumps money every time. The billable hours one gave me hives just reading about it.

Agreed.

I'm also a former practicing attorney who started working in legal higher education about a year ago. One of the best decisions I ever made! Granted, I never really liked practice, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

Good luck with your decision!

[lasagnasshole]

I would probably go with #4 if you get it because it's similar pay and work to what you're doing now.

If you don't, I'd go with #3. As a pp mentioned, the preschool savings somewhat offset the lower salary. And I agree that if you're going to take a paycut (#1), then you don't want to take on more work. As for #2, billable hours are miserable enough to start with; going back to them after being away would be double miz.

With the amount of time you have to work to bill 2,000 hours, I'm guessing the pay for #2 is probably not as dramatically greater than #3 when broken down per hour. You could always do something like part-time LSAT tutoring for some extra cash if you needed it, and you'd probably still wind up working less.

Sorry about your current job, but how great that you have options!

[bostonmichelle]

I would take job #3 in a heart beat. I'm not a lawyer, but just my 2 cents. If you factor in 65 vacation days over all the weeks it's only a 3 day a week job plus you'd still have 13 vacation days, plus holidays and sick time. I'd think it would be a great transition. And if you don't feel it's the right fit in a year or two then you can always job search again since it seems you are a a valuable employee/lawyer by getting 3-4 offers. I'd rule out job 1 at your current company because it sounds like more work for less pay and as you think you may get phased out in 3-5 years. I'd rule out #2 based on the billable a requirement. And #4 there is no offer so while it may look good on getting an offer, you might not get an offer or like it.

[jr009j]

Jul 13, 2014 7:30:36 GMT -5 minzy said:

Congrats on having multiple opportunities.  I would think about trying out #3 and reassess in maybe two years.  It will challenge you professionally to do something new, even if it's not technically practicing.  If you decide you don't like it, you will have networked even more and will already be pretty aware of the market given the nature of the job.  

The networking and awareness of the market was a benefit I was thinking of job 3. I know 2 former Directors of Career Services for law schools. One was able to move into a very good in house job because of her knowledge of the market and connections, though the law school she worked for was in a smaller market. The other wasn't able to find as good of an in house job, but that seemed be in large part because she moved to a city where her school wasn't as connected.