I've heard the $75K number before.. I guess we buy a lot of shit, because that seems really low to me. There's no way to live in the city, save for retirement, and have any disposable income at that level.
But then again, Atlanta is a small piece of Georgia...and down in south Georgia, that number is a whole lot lower.
I promise that, if job responsibilities/pressures and such stay the same, I will be much more happy with a $1,000,000 HHI than a $122,000 (or whatever the very highest number was) HHI.
I love how the article mentions that they overlooked probably the most important factors in the analysis:
"Of course, an array of other factors (for instance, the number of kids you have, the amount of debt you carry, the cost of living in your city or town) will affect how your income translates to your day-to-day happiness. But that's another conversation altogether."
Also, even though this doesn't affect our day to day spending, I get a significant amount of happiness from the mere fact that we have enough money to throw at most, if not all, problems that could come along. A lower income level would not afford us that luxury.
Post by sillygoosegirl on Jul 19, 2014 11:58:05 GMT -5
Wow, I'm surprised to see Oregon in the highest category. In spite of cost of living indices consistently telling me the COL here than in the Chicago burbs or Madison where we lived before, it does feel more expensive. I don't disagree with the number though... it just so happens to be pretty close to what we're aiming for in gross income with our upcoming career downshift.
For me it's true in NJ. But my husband also is above that number. If just one of us had been there we wouldn't be as happy. I have enough to pay for what I need and while i can't be silly with my money i can afford some luxuries. That's all I need.
Also, even though this doesn't affect our day to day spending, I get a significant amount of happiness from the mere fact that we have enough money to throw at most, if not all, problems that could come along. A lower income level would not afford us that luxury.
Yeah, I have about $1,000 in medical bills (thank you health insurance!) from falling and breaking my ankle. I would hate to feel like I put us in a financial bind from an accident on top of the shittiness of not being able to walk.
Post by teatimefor2 on Jul 19, 2014 12:03:45 GMT -5
I'll be honest, I don't think it's very accurate. I've lived in Old Town Alexandria, VA and in NYC and now a NJ bedroom community.
I think NY is more expensive than DC. I've never lived in DC, but worked there and go back frequently.
Plus add in two kids and I don't think, it's accurate for a household, especially considering households tend to have children, especially in HCOL area.
We make more than the level of happiness and every raise DH gets adds to our happiness as it open more opportunities through saving for retirement/college, travel opportunities, or general less stress.
Post by Balki.Bartokomous on Jul 19, 2014 12:13:25 GMT -5
I can see how this holds true to some extent.
IME the problem with making more money is that I've had to deal with more bullshit, so making more hasn't necessarily made me happier, at least right in this moment, and the increase in salary has not been proportional to an increase in happiness, for sure.
Now, a few years down the road when we have enough socked away that we won't have to work, then I will be extremely happy that we pushed ourselves to take on that extra bullshit now.
I make at least 3x more than I used to and I don't think I'm any happier now. In fact I am more stressed from my job even though I love it. But I would definitely be unhappy if I had to go back to my old income now that I'm used to this one.
I can also say, from personal experience, that I am not noticeably more happy now than I was before our HHI increased. I certainly appreciate all that it has given me, but my overall level of happiness is pretty consistent to what it was before. Most days I don't even think about it or realize it. I think that would be the same for most people.
I was going to say the same exact thing. Our income has increased significantly over the last ten years. While I love the things the higher salary affords us and feel grateful to have those opportunities, I can say that my overall level of happiness is the same as when it was less.
Yeah I always question this, although I get their logic. Reaching the point where all your needs are met and you're what people would call "comfortable" makes a huge difference in quality of life, especially if you've ever struggled in the past. If I wasn't quite making ends meet at $65k but am at $75k, going to $85k isn't going to have the same huge effect. But I wouldn't say I won't be happier with more money.
I also question assigning a blanket amount for each state. $70k in my city is decent but certainly not what I would call high, and there are parts of town where $70k wouldn't be remotely enough (mostly due to housing costs). But $70k in some parts of rural super-LCOL Ohio would be a fucking fortune. But I get that it would be a lot harder to break it down by metro areas.
For example, it is unquestionably more comfortable to fly in the front of the plane then in seat 35E, wedged between two people and stuck next to the lavatory. But your overall happiness doesn't really change in life because you are suddenly able to fly business, nor are the people in coach fundamentally less happy than those up front. You're able to meet that "need" either way. You might enjoy it for the 6, 8, 10 hours you're on the plane, but after that your happiness is going to be pretty much the same as before (at least in my experience).
I'm not trying to call you out, but I'll just use this as an example, since you posted one.
IME, this is the exact opposite. I've flown coach on a 737 to Europe and business class on a 777 on the same route and the experience is night and day different. I have a sleep disorder, so being in a large seat that reclines a lot with very little foot traffic in the portion of the plane makes for a completely different experience. I can sleep, a bit.
Crammed between two people in a small seat in the back where people walk up and down a lot and lean on your seat while waiting in line for the restroom means I'm not going to sleep more than 20 mins, even on an 8 hour flight.
Then there is the difference between relaxing in a lounge at a layover and trying to lie down on the hard airport seats or the floor with your bag under your head. The later is going to leave me exhausted, in addition to being jet lagged, when I get to my destination. Often, severe sleep deprivation means my body aches or itches uncontrollably and the only thing that fixes that is sleep.
Said sleep disorder means I don't hit the ground running on processing jet lag like a normal person. So I spend more days tired on vacation or work travel, which really cuts into my happiness and productivity. And then, repeat the process on the return flight.
Does each individual trip mean that my life is less happy? Probably not. But for a short period of time - the trip and the first 5 or so days home - it makes a WORLD of difference in my energy and happiness level. And, you do that enough times, and overall the quality of your life seems happier with more expensive travel.
I am sure each and everyone of us has examples like this. Hell, I could go on and on about how my 200$ per month meds have less side effects than the 18$ ones.
I'm not going to comment on the actual dollar amounts, because as everyone has said, that's so dependent on circumstances and individual location, etc. But I definitely agree with the concept that there is a point where more money doesn't really provide additional happiness. I won't lie, I feel like DH and I have basically hit that point, or at least we are very close. All of our needs are met and most of our wants are comfortably within reach if they aren't currently met. I can easily see how a change in our circumstances (meaning, an increase in income or some type of windfall) wouldn't have a huge impact on our happiness, even if it would have an impact on our lifestyle.
If someone was just going to hand me over money every month, the money would make me happy. I would travel more and put more fillers in my face. BUT, if my boss offered to pay me more if I worked more, I would tell him no thank you. Free time to me is more valuable than money.
But, I think money can buy happiness even at higher levels (again, assuming that the work-life balance remains desirable). Material goods don't make people happier (in general) because obtained desires are just replaced to knew ones. People seem to never stop wanting. But experiences (vacations, family activities, date nights, dinners out) can buy a lot of satisfaction... and so can outsourcing stuff. I would give up a lot before I gave up my cleaning lady.
76K would not buy me a lot of experiences and services after my bills were paid. With 2 kids, I would struggle paying preschool.
Mr. Pom and I discussed this and while obviously, we feel the number for our state is way low, that our happiness is determined more by circumstance than an income number. More money can make some things easier. There are too many other factors that feed the situation that may or may not be influenced by a pay check.
I remember dreaming of DH making $75K & how set we'd be...lol. That was less than 10yrs ago & he made $40K. Now we make more than those combined & I'm not significantly happier. Also our peers/lives are completely different now which plays in a lot I think.
I'll be honest, I don't think it's very accurate. I've lived in Old Town Alexandria, VA and in NYC and now a NJ bedroom community.
I think NY is more expensive than DC. I've never lived in DC, but worked there and go back frequently.
Plus add in two kids and I don't think, it's accurate for a household, especially considering households tend to have children, especially in HCOL area.
We make more than the level of happiness and every raise DH gets adds to our happiness as it open more opportunities through saving for retirement/college, travel opportunities, or general less stress.
Looking at the numbers, I think there is a proportionality that also needs to be considered. NY isn't just NYC but also Albany and Buffalo, which have significantly lower COL. Alexandria is higher than eastern VA farming communities as well. DC is strictly DC without extra acreage to balance out its need/want for higher income. I'd be significantly happier in Spokane with $75,000/year than I would be in Seattle with the same income.
There is a certain threshold for happiness. I can be happy with $100K year but am certainly more financially settled with more. $1M/year won't make me 10x happier but it will make me feel much more financially secure than $100K or even $250K/year. While more money doesn't generally equate to more happiness after a certain level, it can certainly lead to a higher feeling of security and an ability to be more financially generous. Only people with a heightened need for power or accomplishment through financial means or a hunger for security can't be comfortable once that threshold is met.
I mean, look at the lottery winners who spend everything they've won in just a few years...and aren't happy while doing it because of the sycophants and succubi that come out of the woodwork. And really, how many houses does an actor or an athlete need? You can only spend so much money before it loses its allure, imo. It take a strong person to handle big money well. The average person...enough to pay the bills and buy some luxuries will be happy enough. Ergo, the threshold of "average" happiness.
I think not being able to save much for retirement, pay for our kids' college, or travel much (including to visit my H's family, which comes at a substantial cost) would bum us out. We were happy on a lot less when we were first married, but we didn't have kids, and we knew our income would increase substantially. If we made our state's happiness number now with no hope of a significant change in circumstances, I think we would be stressed about money a fair amount and feel bad about not being able to give our kids the things our parents gave us in terms of experiences and educational opportunities. I just can't imagine that not having that stress doesn't increase our happiness at least some.
When I first read this article I thought it was crazy, mostly because the "happiness" number for New York does not reflect the cost of living in the tristate area. I would be miserable if we were living off $100,000 a year because we would be living in a shack, not going on vacation and not saving. I will say that my happiness level has not increased over the past 2 years but our HHI has increased 33%. We do spend more on vacations which makes the vacation more enjoyable but I am not happier day to day.
One of the VPs at my former work sat me down after my last promotion and told me about the $75k benchmark. She said it's where you personally hit the point of diminishing returns (in our business, anyways) and your work becomes more important than your life.
If someone was just going to hand me over money every month, the money would make me happy. I would travel more and put more fillers in my face. BUT, if my boss offered to pay me more if I worked more, I would tell him no thank you...
I think this is a good point. I think most of us would be happier to make more for the same work. But working more to make more is often the way things happen, and that doesn't always lead to more happiness.
I've talked on here before about H starting his own company, and how awesome the transition year was before he really got started. We are making almost twice as much now and that has enabled us to meet certain goals, but there are lots of days I look back whistfully on his time off when he had time to do all the cooking and cleaning and was able to come with me when I traveled for work.
I'm not trying to call you out, but I'll just use this as an example, since you posted one.
IME, this is the exact opposite. I've flown coach on a 737 to Europe and business class on a 777 on the same route and the experience is night and day different. I have a sleep disorder, so being in a large seat that reclines a lot with very little foot traffic in the portion of the plane makes for a completely different experience. I can sleep, a bit.
Crammed between two people in a small seat in the back where people walk up and down a lot and lean on your seat while waiting in line for the restroom means I'm not going to sleep more than 20 mins, even on an 8 hour flight.
Then there is the difference between relaxing in a lounge at a layover and trying to lie down on the hard airport seats or the floor with your bag under your head. The later is going to leave me exhausted, in addition to being jet lagged, when I get to my destination. Often, severe sleep deprivation means my body aches or itches uncontrollably and the only thing that fixes that is sleep.
Said sleep disorder means I don't hit the ground running on processing jet lag like a normal person. So I spend more days tired on vacation or work travel, which really cuts into my happiness and productivity. And then, repeat the process on the return flight.
Does each individual trip mean that my life is less happy? Probably not. But for a short period of time - the trip and the first 5 or so days home - it makes a WORLD of difference in my energy and happiness level. And, you do that enough times, and overall the quality of your life seems happier with more expensive travel.
I am sure each and everyone of us has examples like this. Hell, I could go on and on about how my 200$ per month meds have less side effects than the 18$ ones.
I'm not debating that your quality of life seems better with more expensive items, but that doesn't actually mean you are intrinsically happier because you have more money and flew business class. Most people do not come back from a trip and three weeks later, on a random Tuesday, say to themselves, "You know what really makes me happy? The fact that when I went to Spain last month, I flew business class." It is great in the short term, which may be the 10 hours on the flight or even the few days after it, but it generally does absolutely nothing to affect your long term happiness and is probably not something you even consider on a day-to-day basis which is what this article was about. Not once did I think to myself today (or ever), "I am happier today because I am lucky enough to be able to fly business class when I fly."
I think there are certainly things that you can spend money on that do bring you significant happiness, and I think your medication one is a great example because that affects your quality of life every single day. But once you get to a point where you're past that threshold of it having a significant, meaningful impact on your life for the longer term, you're generally not going to find that you have this prolonged, increased happiness because you could buy more stuff.
If that were the case, then you would expect to see the happiness of people on this board and in your real life correlate with the amount of money they make / have, but I personally haven't found that to be true, either on here or in my life.
I agree, and I think this is the point people are missing. Yes, these "luxuries" you can afford with more money may give you feel good warm "happiness" for a while... HOWEVER there is more to GENERAL, OVERALL happiness than the happiness you get from a purchase, or a vacation... and I don't think MORE money helps increase that type of general, overall happiness after a certain point of not having to worry about money and having enough to fulfill you more basic needs.