I do not sympathize with Hamas. I do, however, understand why some Palestinians *do* sympathize with Hamas. Just like I can understand why 14 year olds without fathers living in the worst parts of Chicago might join gangs. It doesn't mean I like gangs, but I understand the purpose they serve for people who are desperate and have nothing else to believe in.
Ha! Which is why the idea of regurgitated Israeli talking points is kind of hilarious.
Are you telling me that propaganda does not and cannot exist in a democratic country?
Of course not. But Jews are known for being highly critical and educated people and will talk shit when it's warranted. Israelis are known to be very in your face and speak what's on their mind. These are not the type of people who do propaganda well. I'd argue these traits are why a lot of the world is not on board with them. They're horrible at PR.
There is at least some evidence that the tunnels are used for MORE than that. But yes, if you believe everything that (and only what) Netanyahu says, the tunnels are not a "legitimate" use of those materials.
If the situation is that the tunnels were built using materials that Netanyahu "enabled" (i.e. eased economic and geographic restrictions to physically allow) Palestinians to buy and bring back, it was a pretty fucking smart move for them to use those materials to build tunnels which would allow them to, on their own accord, go get more materials (as described by ttt) so that they would not have to ask permission of Israel to get stuff like construction materials and... Kentucky Fried Chicken.
What they are storing in them seems to be a pretty good indication of what they think they might be used for. Unless you know what kind of weapon can be made with yogurt.
I'm really scratching my head over the yogurt comment. Yogurt? Videos released by both the IDF and Hamas has shown weapons, maps, IDF uniforms, and fighters. Or perhaps you're confusing the tunnels? The tunnels used for smuggling goods into Gaza went through Egypt. Those were destroyed by the Egyptian military. The tunnels into Israel were used to smuggle weapons and fighters into Israel. You don't even have to take Israel's word for it this time because Hamas has already confirmed the purpose of those tunnels. "In a public statement released as the incursion began, Hamas said that the new tunnels—some of which apparently extend hundreds of yards into Israeli territory—are just one of the "surprises" it has in store for Israelis. The tunnels represent "a new strategy in confronting the occupation and in the conflict with the enemy from underground and from above the ground," former Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniya has said."
I really want to bump up my article about Israel's strategy from the other day, because I ask the question, what is Israel's end game here? They destroy Hamas and then what?
This is my issue. What is the point? Kill all the people and then move in? The people won't/can't leave so what's the point?
Um. The point is defense. If they ignore Hamas, they put their own people at risk. If Israel had done nothing, the terrorists would utilize these tunnels and infiltrate Israel.
Post by nancybotwin on Jul 24, 2014 1:52:21 GMT -5
I have been avoiding these threads for the last 2 weeks because I just couldn't face being the only person defending Israel. Thank you cosmos and MrsAxilla.
If you are truly concerned about the Palestinian people, peace with Israel is your best bet. How do we get peace? By eradicating Hamas and ceasing rockets into Israel. There can be no peace so long as Hamas and their determination to eliminate Israel is in power -- and the needs of the Palestinian people will never be met so long as Hamas is in power. I'm usually the first one to say this situation is nuanced, but this fact is pretty simple.
Um. The point is defense. If they ignore Hamas, they put their own people at risk. If Israel had done nothing, the terrorists would utilize these tunnels and infiltrate Israel.
Do you not see that?
SBP CIA NSA trained assassin? I am going to misquote somebody in this thread. Even if these people had it coming - they pose no real threat to the Israelis. The disparity between the two sides....the response is like shooting my neighbour for throwing rocks at my house. And also killing his child, his wife and his neighbour. 19 children were killed in a house that also had a leader of Hamas in it. 19 children. Even when the marines got Osama bin Laden, they spared the women and children.
If you think Hamas/terrorists poses no threat to the Israelis, you need a history lesson. Lol at your throwing rocks comparison. Before the wall was in place, and rockets were raining down on Israel on a constant basis- try suicide bombers on buses, schools, public places. And now they are using tunnels to get back in so they can infiltrate Israel and again harm civilians.
I'm not saying - and I've never said - that the IDF always goes about it the right way. I don't know because I'm not there and don't know why they selected the actions they did.
Also again, Hamas' methods appear to be doing things to maximize PALESTINIAN deaths, their own people- to garner public support from people like you.
I have been avoiding these threads for the last 2 weeks because I just couldn't face being the only person defending Israel. Thank you cosmos and MrsAxilla.
If you are truly concerned about the Palestinian people, peace with Israel is your best bet. How do we get peace? By eradicating Hamas and ceasing rockets into Israel. There can be no peace so long as Hamas and their determination to eliminate Israel is in power -- and the needs of the Palestinian people will never be met so long as Hamas is in power. I'm usually the first one to say this situation is nuanced, but this fact is pretty simple.
I think we can look at Iraq, Afghanistan, Nigeria, the Sudan to know that bombing and killing people as a way to eradicate a terrorist people like Hamas doesn't work. Probably talking to them doesn't either but at least all these innocent children would be alive. I just don't see how bombing and bombing and bombing will stop the bombing. Does Israel really think that all of a sudden Hamas will say 'my bad. Sorry about the rockets'
I agree with you there, Hanny. I don't know what the answer is.
I have been avoiding these threads for the last 2 weeks because I just couldn't face being the only person defending Israel. Thank you cosmos and MrsAxilla.
If you are truly concerned about the Palestinian people, peace with Israel is your best bet. How do we get peace? By eradicating Hamas and ceasing rockets into Israel. There can be no peace so long as Hamas and their determination to eliminate Israel is in power -- and the needs of the Palestinian people will never be met so long as Hamas is in power. I'm usually the first one to say this situation is nuanced, but this fact is pretty simple.
Here is my question about this though. Hamas was founded in 1987. The needs of the Palenstianian people were not met long before Hamas came into power.
Are you telling me that propaganda does not and cannot exist in a democratic country?
Of course not. But Jews are known for being highly critical and educated people and will talk shit when it's warranted. Israelis are known to be very in your face and speak what's on their mind. These are not the type of people who do propaganda well. I'd argue these traits are why a lot of the world is not on board with them. They're horrible at PR.
Wrt the PR issue, I've wondered in the past why Israel doesn't do more for the Palestinian people and especially the refugees. Out of altruism but also to improve their image among Palestinians and in the world in general. Maybe it would be a logistical nightmare but wouldn't it be great if Israel oversaw the building of infrastructure in the WB and Gaza and made sure refugees had access to adequate health care, food, clean water, electricity, etc. As a gesture of good will. A campaign to win hearts and minds, so to speak.
I have been avoiding these threads for the last 2 weeks because I just couldn't face being the only person defending Israel. Thank you cosmos and MrsAxilla.
If you are truly concerned about the Palestinian people, peace with Israel is your best bet. How do we get peace? By eradicating Hamas and ceasing rockets into Israel. There can be no peace so long as Hamas and their determination to eliminate Israel is in power -- and the needs of the Palestinian people will never be met so long as Hamas is in power. I'm usually the first one to say this situation is nuanced, but this fact is pretty simple.
Here is my question about this though. Hamas was founded in 1987. The needs of the Palenstianian people were not met long before Hamas came into power.
I've said this before in multiple threads. The viewpoint to eradicate Israel and the Jews has been longstanding since before Israel was founded. Hamas is just one of many many groups that are hostile to Israel.
Which is why I don't agree with nancybotwin that removing Hamas = peace.
However, if there IS a moderate group that comes in power instead of Hamas, that does recognize Israel, then peace talks can begin. That is the hope of the Israeli government - but I don't see that happening.
I have been avoiding these threads for the last 2 weeks because I just couldn't face being the only person defending Israel. Thank you cosmos and MrsAxilla.
If you are truly concerned about the Palestinian people, peace with Israel is your best bet. How do we get peace? By eradicating Hamas and ceasing rockets into Israel. There can be no peace so long as Hamas and their determination to eliminate Israel is in power -- and the needs of the Palestinian people will never be met so long as Hamas is in power. I'm usually the first one to say this situation is nuanced, but this fact is pretty simple.
Here is my question about this though. Hamas was founded in 1987. The needs of the Palenstianian people were not met long before Hamas came into power.
It's because no one in the world community (including the Arabic world) really cares about Palestine unless they're going after Israel. They keep their cause in the media, win credibility as a "factor on the ground," and slowly convince people that Israel needs to make more land concessions by launching these rockets (and the suicide bombers previously). If they gave up their beef with Israel, they'd be just another dirt poor country that the rest of the world mostly ignores.
I don't see why Israeli leaders don't connect with that truth more. Why don't they do something for the Palestinians so they don't feel the need to rely on groups like Hamas out of pure desperation.
Of course not. But Jews are known for being highly critical and educated people and will talk shit when it's warranted. Israelis are known to be very in your face and speak what's on their mind. These are not the type of people who do propaganda well. I'd argue these traits are why a lot of the world is not on board with them. They're horrible at PR.
Wrt the PR issue, I've wondered in the past why Israel doesn't do more for the Palestinian people and especially the refugees. Out of altruism but also to improve their image among Palestinians and in the world in general. Maybe it would be a logistical nightmare but wouldn't it be great if Israel oversaw the building of infrastructure in the WB and Gaza and made sure refugees had access to adequate health care, food, clean water, electricity, etc. As a gesture of good will. A campaign to win hearts and minds, so to speak.
They do bring in supplies and food and water to Gaza, which is clearly not publicized enough. The fact you didn't know this indicates that. And I'm sure it's probably not enough anyway- 1.7 million people is a lot to care for. And they can't just go in and build infrastructure because they will be accused of controlling them. They completely withdrew and did leave them infrastructure when they left. In fact, many of the tunnels were constructed with materials given to them by Israel.
My 18 year old Israeli cousin (who is joining IDF in Sept) said something I'm so proud of- peace will occur when Israel cares more about the Palestinians than they hate us.
I hope that's the view of the younger Israeli population.
The thing is, this conflict will NEVER end if the majority of Palestinians continue to live in such desperate, appalling poverty and see Israel as the primary cause if it. Much, much more needs to be done for them and ironically Israel has the biggest motivation to provide this help. I'm sure the Mossad funds and supplies opposition groups within Palestine. They need to ramp that up. Maybe they need to take a new approach of turning the other cheek and reach out first. If peace really is their goal (which I believe it is for the majority).
Post by karinothing on Jul 24, 2014 7:02:52 GMT -5
cosmos - Yeah I get that, which is also why I don't agree that eliminating Hamas is going to fix anything. Has there every been any kind of moderate group in power in either The West Bank or Gaza? I am hestiant to think even a moderate group would help. I just think there is too much history to ignore. I was reading this story about an elder Palenstianian woman who talked about when she was forced to move into this crummy little poor area and how she had to walk 2 miles each day for water and she would pass Israeli children just playing happily in a swimming pool. I just feel like it is hard to get past all of that pain and resentment.
Has Israel ever tried to just shower the palenstianian people with food, water, supplies, etc. I mean I get it they don't have unlimited money. But I often wonder if they would help the people get to the point where they are not so desperate that maybe the terrorist groups would die down.
Wrt the PR issue, I've wondered in the past why Israel doesn't do more for the Palestinian people and especially the refugees. Out of altruism but also to improve their image among Palestinians and in the world in general. Maybe it would be a logistical nightmare but wouldn't it be great if Israel oversaw the building of infrastructure in the WB and Gaza and made sure refugees had access to adequate health care, food, clean water, electricity, etc. As a gesture of good will. A campaign to win hearts and minds, so to speak.
They do bring in supplies and food and water to Gaza, which is clearly not publicized enough. The fact you didn't know this indicates that. And I'm sure it's probably not enough anyway- 1.7 million people is a lot to care for. And they can't just go in and build infrastructure because they will be accused of controlling them. They completely withdrew and did leave them infrastructure when they left. In fact, many of the tunnels were constructed with materials given to them by Israel.
What do they do for the West bank? I mean I know the situation isn't as horrible, but my friends that live in Israel spend a lot of time in the West Bank (they have friends there) and it seems pretty horrible there as well. At least compared to the standard of living in Israel.
It’s easy to criticize the Israeli government’s response to the rockets launched from Gaza in recent weeks. It’s harder to offer an alternative. But honest critics have an obligation to try. So here goes.
The short answer is that I’d treat the rockets as military symptoms of a political problem. That doesn’t mean Israel shouldn’t return fire. If Hamas and Islamic Jihad can attack Israel with impunity, they may never stop. But returning fire—or even invading Gaza—will never make Israel safe.
Israel can destroy Hamas’ rockets, but Hamas will eventually rebuild them bigger and better, as it did after the last war, and the one before that. And in the relatives and friends of the Palestinians killed in Operation Protective Edge, it will find plenty of new recruits willing to fire them. Israel can overthrow Hamas and then pull back, but it will leave in its wake Somalia-like chaos that gives groups even more radical than Hamas free reign. Israel can overthrow Hamas and try to install Fatah, but doing so will harm the latter as much as the former because any faction that rides into Gaza atop an Israeli tank will lose its public legitimacy forever. Israel can overthrow Hamas and try to govern Gaza itself, but that would require Israeli 18- year-olds to permanently patrol house-to-house in a territory where they’re constantly at risk of becoming the next Gilad Shalit.
So what would I do? First, I’d seek a cease-fire that eases those aspects of Israel’s blockade that have no legitimate security rationale. (That doesn’t mean acceding to Hamas’ cease-fire demands but it means recognizing that a cease-fire that does nothing to address the blockade - as Israel wants - won’t last).
Here are a couple of examples. Since 2010, Israel has made it easier for goods to enter Gaza. But it still makes it extremely difficult for goods to leave. According to the Israeli human rights group Gisha, only two percent as many truckloads leave the Strip as did in 2007. If Israel wants to check those trucks to ensure they’re not carrying weapons, fine. (Last December, the Netherlands tried to donate a high-tech scanner for exactly that purpose).
But essentially barring Gazan exports to Israel and the West Bank — historically Gaza’s biggest markets — is both inhumane and stupid. It’s helped destroy the independent business class that could have been a check on Hamas’ power, and left many in Gaza with the choice of working for Hamas or receiving food aid.
In addition to goods, Israel should make it easier for people to leave Gaza, too. A quarter of Gazans have family in the West Bank. Yet even before this war, Israel allowed Gazans to travel to the West Bank only in “exceptional humanitarian cases.” Yes, Israel can restrict the travel of terrorists. But preventing young Gazans from studying in the West Bank - like preventing Gazan businessmen from exporting there - is self-defeating and inhumane. It feeds the isolation and despair that Hamas exploits.
Second, I’d let Hamas take part in a Palestinian unity government that prepares the ground for Palestinian elections. That doesn’t mean tolerating Hamas attacks, to which Israel should always reserve the right to respond. But it means no longer trying to bar Hamas from political participation because of its noxious views.
It’s common to hear pro-Israel hawks ridicule Mahmoud Abbas for lacking authority over Gaza and for serving the 10th year of a four-year presidential term. But by opposing Palestinian elections, Israel creates the very circumstance its supporters bemoan. Without free elections — which means elections in which all major Palestinian parties can run — Palestinian leaders will never enjoy authority in both Gaza and the West Bank nor the legitimacy to make painful compromises on behalf of their people.
Israel wants Hamas barred from any Palestinian unity government, and any Palestinian election, until it accepts the two-state solution and past peace agreements. But as I’ve suggested before, the current Israeli government probably couldn’t meet those conditions.
There’s a better way. What’s crucial is not that Hamas as a party endorse the two-state solution. After all, Likud as a party has not endorsed the two state-solution, either. What’s crucial is that Hamas promise to respect a two-state agreement if endorsed by the Palestinian people in a referendum. In the past, Hamas leaders have told the media they would. Israel, or its Western allies, should get that pledge in writing, and, in return, allow the free elections necessary to produce a Palestinian leadership with the legitimacy to make a deal.
Finally, Israel should do everything it can — short of rigging the elections — to ensure that Hamas doesn’t win. Already, polls show that Abbas would defeat Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh easily. (If Israel really wanted to crush Hamas, it could release jailed Fatah leader Marwan Barghouti, who has strongly endorsed the two state solution, and who in polls defeats Haniyeh by an even larger margin). But Israel could also help ensure Hamas’ defeat by showing Palestinians that Abbas’ strategy of recognizing Israel, and helping it combat terrorism, actually works. It could do so by freezing settlement growth and publicly committing to a Palestinian state near the 1967 lines with a capital in East Jerusalem. That would give Abbas an instant boost. Hamas’ great ally is despair. It grows stronger when Palestinians decide that settlement growth has made the two-state solution impossible. It gains strength when Palestinians decide that leaders like Abbas and Salam Fayyad are fools for helping Israel police the West Bank while getting only massive settlement subsidies in return.
Nothing would weaken Hamas more than growing Palestinian faith that through nonviolence and mutual recognition, they can win the basic rights they’ve been denied for almost half a century. Israel’s best long-term strategy against Palestinian violence is Palestinian hope. Unfortunately, as effective as Benjamin Netanyahu has been at destroying Palestinian rockets, he’s been even more effective at destroying that.
Wrt the PR issue, I've wondered in the past why Israel doesn't do more for the Palestinian people and especially the refugees. Out of altruism but also to improve their image among Palestinians and in the world in general. Maybe it would be a logistical nightmare but wouldn't it be great if Israel oversaw the building of infrastructure in the WB and Gaza and made sure refugees had access to adequate health care, food, clean water, electricity, etc. As a gesture of good will. A campaign to win hearts and minds, so to speak.
They do bring in supplies and food and water to Gaza, which is clearly not publicized enough. The fact you didn't know this indicates that. And I'm sure it's probably not enough anyway- 1.7 million people is a lot to care for. And they can't just go in and build infrastructure because they will be accused of controlling them. They completely withdrew and did leave them infrastructure when they left. In fact, many of the tunnels were constructed with materials given to them by Israel.
Do they provide ie pay for these things (supplies, food, and water) or do they lift the sanction for a bit to allow them in?
They do bring in supplies and food and water to Gaza, which is clearly not publicized enough. The fact you didn't know this indicates that. And I'm sure it's probably not enough anyway- 1.7 million people is a lot to care for. And they can't just go in and build infrastructure because they will be accused of controlling them. They completely withdrew and did leave them infrastructure when they left. In fact, many of the tunnels were constructed with materials given to them by Israel.
Do they provide ie pay for these things (supplies, food, and water) or do they lift the sanction for a bit to allow them in?
Yes. looking for non IDF/Israel sources at the moment.
asdfjkl - You can just fuck right off with your "go sat down". For someone who has "no dog in this fight" and admittedly hasn't done much research, you're pretty firmly entrenched in your uninformed opinion. Yet for all your loud noises, the only opinion you've make crystal clear is ISRAEL BAD. You've made some pretty outrageous claims that you can't support. In fact, the only sources you've cited have been ttt and me, oddly enough.
The Palestinians are oppressed, desperate and living in horrid conditions - conceded.
The Palestinians deserve empathy, respect and justice - conceded.
The Palestinians have a claim to some of the land - conceded.
Both sides deserve to live in peace and economic prosperity - conceded.
Not one "pro-Israeli propagandist" in this thread has disputed that. We care very deeply about both the Israelis AND the Palestinians. Some of us - me included - have friends and family in Israel who are directly affected everyday. One poster, who you dismissed out of hand and drove away, actually lived there. We have spent decades following this situation. Just because we're Jews doesn't mean we support everything Israel has done. As cosmos pointed out, Jews regularly and strongly criticize Israel. But the one thing we all agree on is that the violence must stop and both sides must come to the table as full negotiating partners. You won't even concede that simple point. You don't like being labeled a terrorist sympathizer? Then perhaps you should go back and re-examine some of the words that came out of your mouth.