What is happening in Isreal and Gaza for dummies.

[dixeedeluxe]

Yes plz

[rjamz]

Oh boy. I'm happy to drop some of my knowledge in here if we can all make a pact in advance to keep this totally civil. No accusations of being terrorist-lovers or civilian-killers? Or any of the other horrible things that get thrown around?

[rjamz]

Disclaimer: my brother served in the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) in the Navy and patrolled the coast of Gaza

[claralou]

Jul 25, 2014 7:22:00 GMT -5 rjamz said:

Oh boy. I'm happy to drop some of my knowledge in here if we can all make a pact in advance to keep this totally civil. No accusations of being terrorist-lovers or civilian-killers? Or any of the other horrible things that get thrown around?

I almost tagged you as the resident expert on all current events, but then thought better of it.

[dixeedeluxe]

Jul 25, 2014 7:22:00 GMT -5 rjamz said:

Oh boy. I'm happy to drop some of my knowledge in here if we can all make a pact in advance to keep this totally civil. No accusations of being terrorist-lovers or civilian-killers? Or any of the other horrible things that get thrown around?

Agreed.  I wouldn't feel comfortable in that kind of discussion anyway!

[Deleted]

Well, it all started when the western world was full of anti Semites.

[Deleted]

And then ww2 happened. And to make up for some of the atrocities that were committed (this is about all I can come up with that is civil) they took some of their old colonial holdings in the Middle East to make Israel.

[dixeedeluxe]

Jul 25, 2014 7:26:50 GMT -5 @thadsrad said:

And then ww2 happened. And to make up for some of the atrocities that were committed (this is about all I can come up with that is civil) they took some of their old colonial holdings in the Middle East to make Israel.

Define this "they".  I'm telling you, I need it to be THAT simple.  And I've read more than the average bear about this!

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2014 7:28:08 GMT -5 dixeedeluxe said:

Jul 25, 2014 7:26:50 GMT -5 @thadsrad said:

And then ww2 happened. And to make up for some of the atrocities that were committed (this is about all I can come up with that is civil) they took some of their old colonial holdings in the Middle East to make Israel.

Define this "they".  I'm telling you, I need it to be THAT simple.  And I've read more than the average bear about this!

Mostly Britain, but really this was something that NATO countries/Western European countries agreed on.

[Deleted]

And we could list a thousand reasons why. There were Jewish people that felt this was necessary and some who didn't. There were Europeans who thought this would get rid of the Jewish "problem." And those who didn't.

[dixeedeluxe]

Jul 25, 2014 7:31:00 GMT -5 @thadsrad said:

And we could list a thousand reasons why. There were Jewish people that felt this was necessary and some who didn't. There were Europeans who thought this would get rid of the Jewish "problem." And those who didn't.

OK, so they made Israel for the Jews because they felt bad about Hitler, et. al?

Also, what did they make Israel out of?

[dixeedeluxe]

So "the people who now occupy Gaza" = Hamas =/= Jews?

[rjamz]

I'll start in 2005 bc I can't go all the way back to the beginning without some sort of power point presentation, lol.

2005: Israel disengages from Gaza in an attempt to end the Second Intifada - an uprising by Palestinians that eventually led to violent clashes between the IDF and the Palestinians. All Israeli settlers left Gaza.

2006: Hamas was elected in Gaza (this is as opposed to the West Bank, where the Palestinian Authority is in power). Israel refuses to deal with Hamas. Israel imposes a naval blockade on Gaza.

2007: Fatah (the Palestinian Authority) and Hamas battle for Gaza. Hamas wins.

2008: Israel and Hamas have a war in Gaza. Started in response to Hamas firing rockets into Israel. Israel wants to decrease their rocket supplies and cut off the weapons being snuggles into Gaza. Ends in ceasefire.

2009: ceasefire. There are still occasional eruptions of violence between the 2 but no full scale war (not in Gaza anyway)

2009-2012: Hamas periodically fires rockets into Israel, Israel periodically strikes in Gaza.

2013: relative quiet

2014: shit hits the fan.

[rjamz]

Jul 25, 2014 7:35:45 GMT -5 dixeedeluxe said:

So "the people who now occupy Gaza" = Hamas =/= Jews?

Hamas is an organization that hates Israel and wants to see it destroyed. It's made up of Palestinian Arabs. Israel in turn hates Hamas.

[Deleted]

And Hamas is considered a terrorist organization.

[rjamz]

Note: Hamas does not snuggle weapons as my previous post says. It smuggles them

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2014 7:40:24 GMT -5 rjamz said:

Note: Hamas does not snuggle weapons as my previous post says. It smuggles them

I'm sure some members of the organization snuggle them too.

[rjamz]

I feel like there are so many angles to this conflict, I don't even know where else to bring you guys to

[imimahoney]

Jul 25, 2014 7:32:37 GMT -5 @therealmc said:

I am sure rjamz is writing an excellent post right now. This is what I have for you in very simplistic terms:

According to E, after WWII ended, world powers (US, Britain and others) wanted to make amends to Jews and so gave them the land that is now Isreal. However, the people who now occupy Gaza felt that this was the holy land and given to their people by their God. Hamas, which runs Gaza, pretty much wants the annihilation of Jews who occupy what they feel is their God given land. Israel isn't having any of it.

Someone correct me please.

Sort of. It was more GB was in no position to keep overseas possessions after the war especially with their problems in India and saw hr middle east as an easy place to peace out. After WWI the region was mostly divided into modern nations so it was a continuation of that stupid policy.

Jews had been illegally occupying the territory since before the war so it seemed like an easy enough transfer.

Also, most of Europe did not ant Jews to return so it made sense to just try and get them some other place.

[dixeedeluxe]

OK, so Hamas arose from the people who had the land since the beginning of time (because they actually did or because their religion dictated they did??). Then, the western world took that land and gave it to someone else. That land is still officially belongs to the people who it was "gifted" to after WW2. And the original owners are still mad.

[rjamz]

And I'm trying SO HARD to be as neutral as possible and give you the objective facts.

So here's my opinion on the current conflict:
Israel has the right to defend itself from having rockets shot into its cities. That said, they are not being careful enough in their operation (and they usually are very very careful about trying not to kill civilians) and the human toll on the side of the Palestinians is unacceptable. Yes, Hamas hides their rockets in hospitals, schools, civilian homes, etc., but if taking out those rockets means killing innocent children and families, then the rockets should stay or they need to find a more pinpointed way of getting rid of them. Israel has an excellent rocket defense system (the Iron Dome) that is 95% effective.

[rjamz]

Jul 25, 2014 7:45:57 GMT -5 dixeedeluxe said:

OK, so Hamas arose from the people who had the land since the beginning of time (because they actually did or because their religion dictated they did??). Then, the western world took that land and gave it to someone else. That land is still officially belongs to the people who it was "gifted" to after WW2. And the original owners are still mad.

Religion dictated they did. Same with the Jews.

[DesertMoon]

DH is a quarter Palestinian. I do believe that the land taken to make Israel was considered to the people of the region as "Palestine" so the Arabs of the area have a major issue with their land being "stolen" although technically it never actually existed In a worldly understood way. If that makes sense...Palestine was what they called the area. However I really don't know much about it at all...the fighting I mean.

[dixeedeluxe]

i think this is so hard for me to even really take sides on because...religion

[claralou]

Jul 25, 2014 7:47:35 GMT -5 @therealmc said:

Jul 25, 2014 7:45:57 GMT -5 dixeedeluxe said:

OK, so Hamas arose from the people who had the land since the beginning of time (because they actually did or because their religion dictated they did??). Then, the western world took that land and gave it to someone else. That land is still officially belongs to the people who it was "gifted" to after WW2. And the original owners are still mad.

Yes. But, like imimahoney pointed out, there were Jews that did already occupy this land as well. More and more Jews continued to emigrate after the wars, which obviously led to more takeover of land.

The area has been considered holy land since forever.

By several different groups, correct? It was disputed territory long before WWII. Right, rjamz?

[dixeedeluxe]

Jul 25, 2014 7:48:02 GMT -5 rjamz said:

Jul 25, 2014 7:45:57 GMT -5 dixeedeluxe said:

OK, so Hamas arose from the people who had the land since the beginning of time (because they actually did or because their religion dictated they did??). Then, the western world took that land and gave it to someone else. That land is still officially belongs to the people who it was "gifted" to after WW2. And the original owners are still mad.

Religion dictated they did. Same with the Jews.

so, before that time, were there legal borders?  or was it more like clusters of like-minded people who lived together.  then the west came in and were like "nope, here are the lines". 

also, palestinians = the original occupants?

[dixeedeluxe]

also, thanks for humoring this dummy

[rjamz]

Jul 25, 2014 7:51:12 GMT -5 dixeedeluxe said:

Jul 25, 2014 7:48:02 GMT -5 rjamz said:

Religion dictated they did. Same with the Jews.

so, before that time, were there legal borders?  or was it more like clusters of like-minded people who lived together.  then the west came in and were like "nope, here are the lines". 

also, palestinians = the original occupants?

Yup. The west drew the lines. We have a nasty habit of doing that and creating lots of conflict.

[imimahoney]

Jul 25, 2014 7:45:57 GMT -5 dixeedeluxe said:

OK, so Hamas arose from the people who had the land since the beginning of time (because they actually did or because their religion dictated they did??). Then, the western world took that land and gave it to someone else. That land is still officially belongs to the people who it was "gifted" to after WW2. And the original owners are still mad.

Hamas has only existed for 30 years tops as an organization. They were in neighboring Arab nations before entering Palestine. When they won control of Palestine they claimed to be only political but that wasn't really the case.

But you also have to look at why a terrorist org was able to rise to power. Gaza is pretty much hell on earth in deep contrast to the west bank which is doing well in comparison. In part it is because of Israeli policy and their own failures in the area.

Also, in response Israeli response to the rockets... The consensus from the Israelis that I know is of they let the rockets fall and do not defend themselves then it gives other Arab nations the idea that Israel is weak and open to attack.

It is a real fear that Israel would be wiped off the map and that Jews would be massacred if they don't defeat hamas.

[AndyCohen]

Jul 25, 2014 7:45:57 GMT -5 dixeedeluxe said:

OK, so Hamas arose from the people who had the land since the beginning of time (because they actually did or because their religion dictated they did??). Then, the western world took that land and gave it to someone else. That land is still officially belongs to the people who it was "gifted" to after WW2. And the original owners are still mad.

The Jewish and Muslim (and I think Christian?) holy land and religious sites overlap.

ETA: people have been fighting over these sites since the Crusades and probably earlier.