So can we talk about it?

[Deleted]

Because I just wrote a paragraph is support of watching a whole slew of movies besides Schindler's List to understand the Holocaust and now I'm sad that it's gone.

First up, Conspiracy. It's on Amazon Prime I believe and I think it should be required viewing if you want to understand how the Nazis operated and what their mindset was. It's not graphic. In fact, there isn't a single Nazi atrocity shown. Instead, it's a reenactment of the Wansee conference, a nice cold winter afternoon where everyone showed up in their Hugo Boss uniforms to discuss how exactly to rid all territories at the time and going further of their "Jewish Problem." Because having them all shot was wasting bullets and giving SS officers PTSD and sterilizing them meant that it would take too damned long for them to die off.

[origami]

Someone mentioned Sarah's Key and now I will have nightmares tonight. That movie gets to me more than schindler's list, but maybe that's because I saw it more recently.

I will check out your rec though. Sounds good.

[cattledogkisses]

I typed up a response and the thread was deleted just as I hit post, and I was annoyed.

The gist was that the current criticism of Israel with regards to the Gaza conflict is not stemming from a lack of awareness of the atrocities of the Holocaust, if that's where the OP was trying to go with this.

[msmerymac]

I love the Pianist. I was just writing about Poland in respond to SBP in another post, and that one does actually take place in Poland. And the director, uh, survived the Holocaust in Poland.

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2014 10:16:37 GMT -5 origami said:

Someone mentioned Sarah's Key and now I will have nightmares tonight. That movie gets to me more than schindler's list, but maybe that's because I saw it more recently.

I will check out your rec though. Sounds good.

That was me. I read the book and watched the movie. I can't forget it even though it was a work of fiction.

It's interesting though because it highlights the differences in how the Holocaust happened from country to country. France didn't allow the deportation of its own Jewish population. But the foreign Jews who fled persecution in their home countries, yeah, they actively and actually preemptively and thoroughly rounded them up before the Nazis had even finished asking them.

The part that hurt the most aside from the whole key business, was the fact that in that particular round up, they sent all of the adults to camps first and let the kids fend for themselves for about a week before sending them on. 

[laurenpetro]

Jul 25, 2014 10:13:40 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

Because I just wrote a paragraph is support of watching a whole slew of movies besides Schindler's List to understand the Holocaust and now I'm sad that it's gone.

First up, Conspiracy. It's on Amazon Prime I believe and I think it should be required viewing if you want to understand how the Nazis operated and what their mindset was. It's not graphic. In fact, there isn't a single Nazi atrocity shown. Instead, it's a reenactment of the Wansee conference, a nice cold winter afternoon where everyone showed up in their Hugo Boss uniforms to discuss how exactly to rid all territories at the time and going further of their "Jewish Problem." Because having them all shot was wasting bullets and giving SS officers PTSD and sterilizing them meant that it would take too damned long for them to die off.

that movie freaked me out.  it's AMAZING but amazingly disturbing.  which i know is the point.

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2014 10:22:37 GMT -5 laurenpetro said:

Jul 25, 2014 10:13:40 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

Because I just wrote a paragraph is support of watching a whole slew of movies besides Schindler's List to understand the Holocaust and now I'm sad that it's gone.

First up, Conspiracy. It's on Amazon Prime I believe and I think it should be required viewing if you want to understand how the Nazis operated and what their mindset was. It's not graphic. In fact, there isn't a single Nazi atrocity shown. Instead, it's a reenactment of the Wansee conference, a nice cold winter afternoon where everyone showed up in their Hugo Boss uniforms to discuss how exactly to rid all territories at the time and going further of their "Jewish Problem." Because having them all shot was wasting bullets and giving SS officers PTSD and sterilizing them meant that it would take too damned long for them to die off.

that movie freaked me out.  it's AMAZING but amazingly disturbing.  which i know is the point.

It doesn't help that they cast it with a bunch of people you like. Because that was the point I suppose, that these seemingly good natured people, rather ordinary and all that just sat around and mapped out the demise of an entire people.

Colin Firth, Kenneth Branaugh, Stanley Tucci (although I supposed that's less startling in a post The Lovely Bones world.)

[laurenpetro]

Jul 25, 2014 10:24:19 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

Jul 25, 2014 10:22:37 GMT -5 laurenpetro said:

that movie freaked me out.  it's AMAZING but amazingly disturbing.  which i know is the point.

It doesn't help that they cast it with a bunch of people you like. Because that was the point I suppose, that these seemingly good natured people, rather ordinary and all that just sat around and mapped out the demise of an entire people.

Colin Firth, Kenneth Branaugh, Stanley Tucci (although I supposed that's less startling in a post The Lovely Bones world.)

see now i always think of him as superduper evil.  i think it stems from his dicking around on emma thompson.

[Deleted]

My DH watched the entire documentary Shoah. I watched an hour, but couldn't watch more. They actually recorded interviews with Nazis. So weird.

[Deleted]

I haven't seen Life is Beautiful. I really should.

The Boy in the Striped Pajamas is hella lame though.

Has anyone else seen Good? Aragorn and papa Malfoy are in it and it's very, very good. It's basically the story of how good men did nothing.

[laurenpetro]

HOLD THE PHONE.

IIOY, Hiddles was in Conspiracy.  i hope you have amazon prime.

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2014 10:43:10 GMT -5 laurenpetro said:

HOLD THE PHONE.

IIOY, Hiddles was in Conspiracy.  i hope you have amazon prime.

Time for a rewatch!

[pixy0stix]

Jul 25, 2014 10:32:57 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

I haven't seen Life is Beautiful. I really should.

It's good, and haunting, and beautiful.

People (general) have a huge problem with it because 1) It's fiction. 100% fiction and does take some liberties, and 2) Depicts a man who deals with life's adversities with humor. Some people can't get past the fact that he keeps on joking and daydreaming right up to the end. 

[Deleted]

Speaking of Schindler's List though, there is a documentary on Netflix by Amon Goeth's daughter that's uhm, interesting but confusing. I had too many conflicting emotions to watch the whole thing.

[Deleted]

Oh I'm still reading Hitler's Furies. It's good but it's academic I would say so it takes effort to slog through. It also bounces around from woman to woman so it's difficult to keep track of who is who in your head.

I didn't realize that playing target practice with camp inmates like Amon Goeth did was actually not uncommon. It seems many camp commanders 'enjoyed' that particular pasttime.

What's most fascinating about Hitler's Furies is that it challenges the long held notion that if women ruled the world, there wouldn't be such large scale atrocities, such a bent to war. Human nature it seems crosses gender lines.

[ESF]

Jul 25, 2014 10:46:49 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jul 25, 2014 10:32:57 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

I haven't seen Life is Beautiful. I really should.

It's good, and haunting, and beautiful.

People (general) have a huge problem with it because 1) It's fiction. 100% fiction and does take some liberties, and 2) Depicts a man who deals with life's adversities with humor. Some people can't get past the fact that he keeps on joking and daydreaming right up to the end. 

I really think it's one of the most beautiful movies ever made.    That said, I would say that while the Holocaust is the setting for the movie, it's more of a commentary about the human spirit than it is about the Holocaust, KWIM? The same story could have easily been told in a variety of other settings.  

It's weird to me that critics can't seem to understand that.  The liberties it takes with history really aren't important because he's not trying to tell us about the Holocaust. I can't imagine getting so hung up on that, given that the bigger takeaway left me just breathless.  

[laurenpetro]

Jul 25, 2014 10:52:19 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

Oh I'm still reading Hitler's Furies. It's good but it's academic I would say so it takes effort to slog through. It also bounces around from woman to woman so it's difficult to keep track of who is who in your head.

I didn't realize that playing target practice with camp inmates like Amon Goeth did was actually not uncommon. It seems many camp commanders 'enjoyed' that particular pasttime.

What's most fascinating about Hitler's Furies is that it challenges the long held notion that if women ruled the world, there wouldn't be such large scale atrocities, such a bent to war. Human nature it seems crosses gender lines.

i read about half and stopped.  

[2curlydogs]

Conspiracy gave me the heebie-jeebies for months after. Soooooooooooooooooooooo fucking disturbing. Soooooooooooooooooo good.

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2014 11:01:07 GMT -5 laurenpetro said:

i read about half and stopped.  

HA! That's about where I am. It could have been a really good book. Instead, it reads like a long ass term paper. Whomever wrote it really should have broken it up into sections based on each woman they were discussing. So tell me all about the lady who shot Jewish children in the head, her upbringing, her marriage, what brought her to the Eastern front. Then you can tell me all about the paper pusher lady. But peppering in all of these one liners and expecting me to remember who did what is not helping me.

ETA: The book on which the movie Defiance was based has the same problem. This goes pretty far to explain why Defiance was such a disjointed movie. It's a shitty movie over all though so idk, maybe see it, maybe don't. It's worth it I think perhaps because it tells another aspect of the Holocaust, about those who ran and hid and managed to do so with some success, setting up their own little village as it were in the woods of Belarus. But over all, the movie is awful despite the presence of Daniel Craig and Liev Schriever.

[laurenpetro]

Jul 25, 2014 11:04:53 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

Jul 25, 2014 11:01:07 GMT -5 laurenpetro said:

i read about half and stopped.  

HA! That's about where I am. It could have been a really good book. Instead, it reads like a long ass term paper. Whomever wrote it really should have broken it up into sections based on each woman they were discussing. So tell me all about the lady who shot Jewish children in the head, her upbringing, her marriage, what brought her to the Eastern front. Then you can tell me all about the paper pusher lady. But peppering in all of these one liners and expecting me to remember who did what is not helping me.

yeah, i felt like it jumped around too much.  it was kind of interesting but not enough to allow for that. 

[AJL]

First, I hate when threads get deleted. It's stupid. I realize that the link had her personal information in it, but deleting a whole thread is uncool.

Second, I have a hard time watching any film about the Holocaust anymore. When Schindler's List came out, I refused to see it in the theater. I saw it for the first time in school when my history class presented it as part of a lesson on WWII. I cried for a solid week. I've seen it only one other time since then. I can't hear the music without crying. I've seen the Pianist and Life is Beautiful. Both are heartbreaking. I feel like I'm Holocausted-out. My husband feels the same way but I imagine when you grow up the grandchild of survivors, you get numb to hearing/reading/talking about it.

Third, I haven't heard of Conspiracy and I might watch that, but I'm not sure.

Fourth, I tried to read Sarah's Key. I started crying uncontrollably in the first several pages. I couldn't get through it.

Man, I'm a marshmallow.

[pixy0stix]

Jul 25, 2014 11:20:23 GMT -5 AJL said:

First, I hate when threads get deleted. It's stupid. I realize that the link had her personal information in it, but deleting a whole thread is uncool.

She asked me to delete it, so I did. There was no reason to keep it after she asked for it to be deleted, and she had posted in the OP to that it was going to be deleted. (Can I type delete some more? Delete delete delete.)

[AJL]

Jul 25, 2014 11:22:04 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jul 25, 2014 11:20:23 GMT -5 AJL said:

First, I hate when threads get deleted. It's stupid. I realize that the link had her personal information in it, but deleting a whole thread is uncool.

She asked me to delete it, so I did. There was no reason to keep it after she asked for it to be deleted, and she had posted in the OP to that it was going to be deleted. (Can I type delete some more? Delete delete delete.)

I hear ya. It's just a personal pet peeve. It's my own hang up.

[Deleted]

So if more people watch these movies, what will happen?

[Deleted]

For the record, I'm not mad that anyone deleted it. I'm cranky that she requested it be deleted when we'd actually begun a meaty conversation. She could have deleted the OP and let the rest stand while we dorked out about Holocaust movies that exist, that don't exist, and when/if similar movies about similar atrocities have the same effect of sympathy for those victims.

Because really, as sad as Hotel Rwanda and Sometimes in April were, people still don't care about African genocide.

I would love to see a movie about Vietnam absent heavy handed emphasis on US soldiers as well as one about the Khmer Rouge. I wonder if either would have much of an effect on the shit that people hand the Vietnamese, Cambodians, and Hmong populations in this country.

[downtoearth]

I don't know about the missing post, but I've mostly read some really interesting accounts (see below.) I've also seen the corresponding movies. Honestly, I've probably learned more about Holocaust History than Black History in high school and college. I'm guessing that is b/c I was fluent in German at one time, but also b/c there is a cultural difference in looking into someone else's atrocities over your own. But that's another post.

The Sunflower by Simon Wiesenthal works on figuring out forgiveness after the Holocaust. Very quick read.

Maus I and II are disturbing, but enlightening graphic novels (aka comic books) on the Holocaust.

Of course, Night by Elie Wiesel. And his next book Dawn. I think he had one more that I haven't read.

The Boy in the Striped Pajamas - can't remember who that is by.

Auschwitz and After by Charlotte Delbo - I loved that book. Delbo was part of the French Resistance and was captured and eventually sent to Auschwitz. It's a great point of view and wonderfully written.

As for movies, I think the only one I haven't seen from this thread is Conspiracy - I'll have to look that up.

[omgzombies]

Jul 25, 2014 11:20:23 GMT -5 AJL said:

First, I hate when threads get deleted. It's stupid. I realize that the link had her personal information in it, but deleting a whole thread is uncool.

Second, I have a hard time watching any film about the Holocaust anymore. When Schindler's List came out, I refused to see it in the theater. I saw it for the first time in school when my history class presented it as part of a lesson on WWII. I cried for a solid week. I've seen it only one other time since then. I can't hear the music without crying. I've seen the Pianist and Life is Beautiful. Both are heartbreaking. I feel like I'm Holocausted-out. My husband feels the same way but I imagine when you grow up the grandchild of survivors, you get numb to hearing/reading/talking about it.

Third, I haven't heard of Conspiracy and I might watch that, but I'm not sure.

Fourth, I tried to read Sarah's Key. I started crying uncontrollably in the first several pages. I couldn't get through it.

Man, I'm a marshmallow.

I can't do Holocaust stuff either, it hits too close to home.  I've seen Schindlers List and the Pianist that's about it.  I can handle horror movies, but not Holocaust.  

[sporklemotion]

Jul 25, 2014 11:34:55 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

The Sunflower by Simon Wiesenthal works on figuring out forgiveness after the Holocaust. Very quick read.

I lurked the other thread but hadn't read it recently, and didn't have much to contribute, but am interested in seeing/reading some of the things mentioned in this bread.

This is a great book, and it really made me think.  There are different editions that have a range of responses to the story and whether the protagonist should do what he is asked to do.

The movie The Last Days is really powerful-- it is a set of interviews with five Hungarian survivors, and it includes lots of footage.  I rarely cry during movies, but there is an interview with a WWII vet, and tow of the survivors who make me cry every time.  

Not directly about the Holocaust, but the book Everything is Illuminated explores Jewish identity (and absence) in modern Eastern Europe in a couple of ways.  The narrator tries to find the village of his ancestors, but the borders and designations have changed.  As someone whose family is from that area, it really affected me. 


Never saw the movie of the Boy in the Striped Pajamas, but I have serious hate for the book.  So much rage.



 

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2014 11:45:17 GMT -5 @esquirefish said:

I stated up front that it would be deleted.  I stated up front that I didn't want to start a debate (because I knew it was going to be deleted, so there was no point).  I incorrectly assumed that people would therefore understand that if they wanted to put something of significance in that thread, they would know instead to just start a new topic with the knowledge that I was absolutely going to delete that thread.  When I realized that the thread was starting to get into an actual discussion, I immediately asked for it to be deleted (instead of leaving it up for a few hours as I had initially planned) so that way people didn't spend a lot of time writing replies only to have it disappear later today.  I get it -- I tried to minimize the loss of posts, but some posts had to of course be lost.  

You know you have been around there too damned long to think you could really control how a post would go. The whole thing was just shady and preemptively announcing you were planning to be shady doesn't make it any better.

You wanted to post something that would spark conversation but didn't want anyone to remember you did it. That's shady.

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2014 11:49:04 GMT -5 sporklemotion said:

Never saw the movie of the Boy in the Striped Pajamas, but I have serious hate for the book.  So much rage.

Do tell!

I feel like that whole movie was the Nicholas Sparks equivalent of that line from Jake Brigance's closing argument in A Time to Kill. "Now imagine she was white."