Don't send your kid to the Ivys

[epphd]

Did we discuss? Search function isn't working for me, so sorry if a dup.

www.newrepublic.com/article/118747/ivy-league-schools-are-overrated-send-your-kids-elsewhere

Premise: Ivy's do nothing but reinforce and perpetuate the growing class divide and provide substandard education as a result of catering to the "best and brightest" as customers who cannot be challenged.

[ttt]

I read this the other day and honestly, it sounds like someone who has spent an awful lot of time in academia and not the 'real world.' He makes some good points, but for kids who aren't born into families with tons of great connections, going to an elite school is a valuable opportunity for social mobility. 

ETA: being an educated, intellectually curious person is great, but frankly, it doesn't pay the bills. 

[epphd]

Jul 28, 2014 12:44:33 GMT -5 ttt said:

I read this the other day and honestly, it sounds like someone who has spent an awful lot of time in academia and not the 'real world.' He makes some good points, but for kids who aren't born into families with tons of great connections, going to an elite school is a valuable opportunity for social mobility. 

ETA: being an educated, intellectually curious person is great, but frankly, it doesn't pay the bills. 

Sure, but these are least represented kids in Ivys, and their numbers are diminishing every year (at least per the statistics mentioned). IMO the Ivys are a bit like the NBA. Totally awesome to shoot for but realistically not in the cards for the vast majority. I think also the point that elite schools are effectively echo chambers for their highly groomed, highly supported student body is an interesting point - and maybe an area where elite schools have been failing to truly educate.

[downtoearth]

Jul 28, 2014 12:43:46 GMT -5 epphd said:

Did we discuss? Search function isn't working for me, so sorry if a dup.

www.newrepublic.com/article/118747/ivy-league-schools-are-overrated-send-your-kids-elsewhere

Premise: Ivy's do nothing but reinforce and perpetuate the growing class divide and provide substandard education as a result of catering to the "best and brightest" as customers who cannot be challenged.

I would be curious if anyone here was a non-rich kid who ended up in the ivy's.  I was somewhat (middle class kid from small town that ended up getting into Stanford, MIT, Northwestern, etc.,).  I don't feel it was the university that pushed the growing divide, but socially I felt the push when I was the only kid I knew with a job (both a work study and off-campus job) in addition to classes and got to visit other classmate's penthouse apartments that their parents bought just to visit their kids at university or the guy who had a tux handmade for him for a fraternity formal or the roommate who broke up with her boyfriend and so her mom surprise flew her to Paris for a long weekend. Rich people are different.

[heyjude]

Jul 28, 2014 13:08:47 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Jul 28, 2014 12:43:46 GMT -5 epphd said:

Did we discuss? Search function isn't working for me, so sorry if a dup.

www.newrepublic.com/article/118747/ivy-league-schools-are-overrated-send-your-kids-elsewhere

Premise: Ivy's do nothing but reinforce and perpetuate the growing class divide and provide substandard education as a result of catering to the "best and brightest" as customers who cannot be challenged.

I would be curious if anyone here was a non-rich kid who ended up in the ivy's. 

My husband.

[mominatrix]

I honestly don't think the in-class education one gets at an Ivy is better than the education one gets in many non-ivy schools.


What one does get, though, is connections. And the name on the resume. And exposure of the type downtoearth was talking about. And those things are incredibly valuable. So valuable that if my kid had the opportunity for it, I wouldn't dream of turning it down.

[msmerymac]

Jul 28, 2014 13:08:47 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Jul 28, 2014 12:43:46 GMT -5 epphd said:

Did we discuss? Search function isn't working for me, so sorry if a dup.

www.newrepublic.com/article/118747/ivy-league-schools-are-overrated-send-your-kids-elsewhere

Premise: Ivy's do nothing but reinforce and perpetuate the growing class divide and provide substandard education as a result of catering to the "best and brightest" as customers who cannot be challenged.

I would be curious if anyone here was a non-rich kid who ended up in the ivy's.  I was somewhat (middle class kid from small town that ended up getting into Stanford, MIT, Northwestern, etc.,).  I don't feel it was the university that pushed the growing divide, but socially I felt the push when I was the only kid I knew with a job (both a work study and off-campus job) in addition to classes and got to visit other classmate's penthouse apartments that their parents bought just to visit their kids at university or the guy who had a tux handmade for him for a fraternity formal or the roommate who broke up with her boyfriend and so her mom surprise flew her to Paris for a long weekend. Rich people are different.

My husband was a middle class kid who went to an Ivy. 

Now, by middle class, he still went to a highly ranked suburban public school. He was still able to afford to spend a trimester in Germany his sophomore year. He was able to spend the required summer on campus that he needed to in order to fulfill graduation requirements (his school lets you skip a trimester and requires you to live there 1 summer in lieu of that) because he didn't need to work 80 hours a week over break to earn money to pay for school. He also went 20 years ago and his dad had been laid off his senior year, so he got a pretty sweet financial aid package... but his school was "only" about $20k/year then, anyway. 

Also, the really rich kids kept to themselves, IIRC. He doesn't have a ton of Madison Ave connections or anything. Maybe one reason is because it wasn't a Top 3 Ivy, it was one of the "lame" ones. His friends from college are a journalist, a business school professor, a doctor, a veterinarian, etc. He does have one friend who is already retired and lives in a fucking sweet house in Palo Alto because he hit the tech boom at the right time. But no one who came from a shit ton of money.

However, the name of his school probably helped when he got into graduate school and an undergraduate degree from an Ivy is said to boost your career and prospects for the first 8 years out of college - so until you're about 30. After that, you're going to have to do something else. Work/school connections, being really talented at your job, a graduate degree. You can't ride your degree for the next 40 years without doing anything else, but it really helps at the beginning of your career, when you are laying a foundation for the rest of your work life.

[epphd]

I did not go to an Ivy, but I did go to a super white, tier 1 liberal arts school. I certainly had many friends who were flummoxed to hand me their tray in the dining hall (where I worked), but just as many friends who were right there along side me on a.m. shift. So I feel like there was a decent mix of socio-demographics even if it was weighted mightily toward those who attended because "my parents have as summer home in VT so I've always enjoyed it there" and the like.

As for name recognition, I guess it all depends. Had I gone in to law or consulting then having the Midd.lebury name on my resume would have likely been helpful. Going in the basic sciences it was, by name recognition standards, an anchor. I would have been better off with a degree from Giant State University. I was even told by one interviewer (a Nobel laureate who himself went to a no-name liberal arts school!) "Your undergraduate institution - while a "fine" school I am sure - is not typically known as a launching pad for graduate schools of this caliber." I still remember hearing that quote and being completely stunned.

Anyway, all this to say that I think the author has a point - but the reality no parent is going to turn up their nose at say, a full ride to Stanford.

[Brie]

Jul 28, 2014 13:08:47 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Jul 28, 2014 12:43:46 GMT -5 epphd said:

Did we discuss? Search function isn't working for me, so sorry if a dup.

www.newrepublic.com/article/118747/ivy-league-schools-are-overrated-send-your-kids-elsewhere

Premise: Ivy's do nothing but reinforce and perpetuate the growing class divide and provide substandard education as a result of catering to the "best and brightest" as customers who cannot be challenged.

I would be curious if anyone here was a non-rich kid who ended up in the ivy's.

Me, kind of.  I went to Northwestern.  Single mom, no college degree, made <$30K/year as a medical assistant.  I got close to a full ride (left 4 years of undergrad with <$5K in SLs), and it was cheaper for me to go there than any other school I'd applied to.  I was heavily recruited by the Ivies but didn't apply because I didn't want to go too far from home.

I'm kind of torn as to the social mobility aspect of it.  On one hand, I just couldn't compete with my friends who got to spend their time outside of class studying, doing tons of extra-curriculars and awesome charity work, and networking.  I couldn't afford to go abroad and I was insanely jealous.  On the other hand, I did learn a lot from those people just from being exposed to real diversity for the first time in my life.  Even if all (or most of) my friends were rich, they were from all over the world, different religions, different political views, etc and that was really enlightening for me.  And I don't know if I would have gotten that anywhere else.

Either way, I absolutely don't regret going there.  The article says, "Elite private colleges will never allow their students’ economic profile to mirror that of society as a whole. They can’t afford to—they need a critical mass of full payers and they need to tend to their donor base—and it’s not even clear that they’d want to."  I benefited greatly from the "full payers" and I know many others who did as well.  It's not perfect, sure, but I think that the "BURN IT DOWN" mentality is even worse.

Disclaimer: Yes, I know Northwestern isn't an Ivy.

[omgzombies]

Jul 28, 2014 13:20:18 GMT -5 mominatrix said:

I honestly don't think the in-class education one gets at an Ivy is better than the education one gets in many non-ivy schools.


What one does get, though, is connections. And the name on the resume. And exposure of the type downtoearth was talking about. And those things are incredibly valuable. So valuable that if my kid had the opportunity for it, I wouldn't dream of turning it down.

Ditto this.  

My education was probably pretty comparable to what I would have received at any state school, but the connections I made during those 4 years very much solidified where I am today.  It affected my job, my husband, and most certainly my income level.

I will also point out that your college education is very much what you make of it.  I certainly could have challenged myself more, but I was happy mostly coasting through my classes, and enjoying the social aspect of college, something that had been sorely lacking for me in high school.  I didn't party, but I was very involved in extracurriculars (namely theatre).  I enjoyed having free time to socialize as well as work part time without having to worry about studying too much.  I studied and took a course or two that made me work for it, but for the most part, all I needed was a couple hours here and there before an exam.  More challenging courses were offered, but I didn't take them, and while I don't regret it, I also acknowledge that my education could have been more thorough if I had taken the opportunity. 

[kme]

Jul 28, 2014 13:08:47 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Jul 28, 2014 12:43:46 GMT -5 epphd said:

Did we discuss? Search function isn't working for me, so sorry if a dup.

www.newrepublic.com/article/118747/ivy-league-schools-are-overrated-send-your-kids-elsewhere

Premise: Ivy's do nothing but reinforce and perpetuate the growing class divide and provide substandard education as a result of catering to the "best and brightest" as customers who cannot be challenged.

I would be curious if anyone here was a non-rich kid who ended up in the ivy's. 

Hi.

I started a Masters program. It took me 10 years and lots of hard work.

As a backstory, I grew up in the hood. My goal was to get into an Ivy. I felt like it validated me.

[wanderlustfoodie]

Jul 28, 2014 13:08:47 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Jul 28, 2014 12:43:46 GMT -5 epphd said:

Did we discuss? Search function isn't working for me, so sorry if a dup.

www.newrepublic.com/article/118747/ivy-league-schools-are-overrated-send-your-kids-elsewhere

Premise: Ivy's do nothing but reinforce and perpetuate the growing class divide and provide substandard education as a result of catering to the "best and brightest" as customers who cannot be challenged.

I would be curious if anyone here was a non-rich kid who ended up in the ivy's.  I was somewhat (middle class kid from small town that ended up getting into Stanford, MIT, Northwestern, etc.,).  I don't feel it was the university that pushed the growing divide, but socially I felt the push when I was the only kid I knew with a job (both a work study and off-campus job) in addition to classes and got to visit other classmate's penthouse apartments that their parents bought just to visit their kids at university or the guy who had a tux handmade for him for a fraternity formal or the roommate who broke up with her boyfriend and so her mom surprise flew her to Paris for a long weekend. Rich people are different.

Both my husband and I were non-rich and many of our friends there were, too. Of course, there were many there who were rich but any school is going to have some wealthy and some non-wealthy students.

[ttt]

Jul 28, 2014 13:08:47 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Jul 28, 2014 12:43:46 GMT -5 epphd said:

Did we discuss? Search function isn't working for me, so sorry if a dup.

www.newrepublic.com/article/118747/ivy-league-schools-are-overrated-send-your-kids-elsewhere

Premise: Ivy's do nothing but reinforce and perpetuate the growing class divide and provide substandard education as a result of catering to the "best and brightest" as customers who cannot be challenged.

I would be curious if anyone here was a non-rich kid who ended up in the ivy's.  I was somewhat (middle class kid from small town that ended up getting into Stanford, MIT, Northwestern, etc.,).  I don't feel it was the university that pushed the growing divide, but socially I felt the push when I was the only kid I knew with a job (both a work study and off-campus job) in addition to classes and got to visit other classmate's penthouse apartments that their parents bought just to visit their kids at university or the guy who had a tux handmade for him for a fraternity formal or the roommate who broke up with her boyfriend and so her mom surprise flew her to Paris for a long weekend. Rich people are different.

I'm one. Pretty good but not amazing public school graduate, single mom, not poor but I went to college partly thanks to Pell grants and almost entirely thanks to generous financial aid. It was definitely an eye opening experience - I just really had never encountered people like that before. The people I thought were rich were the people who drove BMWs and played tennis. These people drove Maseratis and spent their weekends yachting. I studied abroad and one of my classmates' parents rented out the swankiest spot in the city for his birthday and had 75 of his friends and family flown over from the US to attend the party. We were all invited and the party just blew my mind. I had never been to anything like that before. 

So yeah, there's definitely a huge social divide. But I also feel like I got an excellent education and lifelong connections that I never would have had otherwise. I also ended up gravitating towards the other 'normal' people - the farm girl from Iowa, the daughter of Caribbean immigrants, the other people who stayed at school during the breaks because they couldn't afford to fly home or go on the ski jaunt to Switzerland.

Granted, it was over ten years ago, but I didn't see the watered-down education that the author claims is occurring. I studied my behind off, and it wasn't even close to what my classmates in the sciences did. 

In a world where social mobility is becoming harder and harder, and the middle class is shrinking, I would absolutely do what I could to make sure my kids end up on the winning side of that divide. And I understand why many middle class parents are so annoyingly obsessive about eight zillion extracurriculars and resume padding. It's a terrible system, but if you don't do it, what are your chances of getting yourself out of the middle class, or worse, staying there? 

[cattledogkisses]

Some of it depends on what you want to study too. I had the grades, test scores, and extracurriculars to be competitive for an Ivy admission, but I wanted to study marine science. I applied to half a dozen universities with some of the best marine science programs in the country, and none of those schools were Ivies.

Yale or Princeton might have the "wow" factor of the Ivy name, but gave me a superior marine science education.

[ttt]

Jul 28, 2014 13:44:38 GMT -5 cattledogkisses said:

Some of it depends on what you want to study too. I had the grades, test scores, and extracurriculars to be competitive for an Ivy admission, but I wanted to study marine science. I applied to half a dozen universities with some of the best marine science programs in the country, and none of those schools were Ivies.

Yale or Princeton might have the "wow" factor of the Ivy name, but UMaine gave me a superior marine science education.

This is definitely true for kids who actually know what they want to do. But if you're that focused at that age, you'll probably be successful regardless of the name on your resume. 

[meshaliuknits]

Jul 28, 2014 13:36:23 GMT -5 epphd said:

Anyway, all this to say that I think the author has a point - but the reality no parent is going to turn up their nose at say, a full ride to Stanford.

I might.

[Susie]

The way it reads to me, his 24 years in an ivory tower are showing.  

Intellectual curiosity is great and laudable, but it doesn't pay my student loans back, and it's not necessarily directly productive for me or for society.  I'm ok with Ivy's providing an education that may well be on par with state schools while providing the opportunity to make connections, earn that name on the resume, etc.  My parents and I paid the economic cost for me to go, and I think it was worth it.  As far as academic rigor, the curve in organic chemistry might have been harder at Cornell than other places, but it's still organic chemistry.  Either you learn it or you don't, there's a limit to how much harder or easier it can be made.  

I don't have a personal perspective on humanities, or the Ivy's that have a specific reputation for grade inflation.  Those may differ.

I was very much a middle class kid, and there were times when I felt it -- apartment shopping with roommates with differing budgets, for example.  But it wasn't weird that I had a job on campus, or that I worked full time in the summer instead of fostering my "intellectual curiosity" with study abroad or the "marine institute" or something like that.  There were plenty of other kids like me.  I think the opportunities that I've had, connections I made, name on the resume, etc. have made it very much worthwhile.

[epphd]

Jul 28, 2014 13:43:57 GMT -5 ttt said:

Jul 28, 2014 13:08:47 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

In a world where social mobility is becoming harder and harder, and the middle class is shrinking, I would absolutely do what I could to make sure my kids end up on the winning side of that divide. And I understand why many middle class parents are so annoyingly obsessive about eight zillion extracurriculars and resume padding. It's a terrible system, but if you don't do it, what are your chances of getting yourself out of the middle class, or worse, staying there? 

Is this really the case though? Is the ONLY ticket out of poverty or in to the middle class or even beyond Ivy League connections? I think that's either an untrue assumption or if accurate a much more serious problem. Again, not to take away from the awesomeness of Ivy League connections but are there truly to connections to be had at your "University of State" or other? I have a really hard time swallowing that we have to commoditize our children's youth to fit the mold of an institution that is available to a vanishingly small fraction of the population. Clearly it can't be Ivy or bust, can it?

[ttt]

Jul 28, 2014 13:53:20 GMT -5 epphd said:

Jul 28, 2014 13:43:57 GMT -5 ttt said:

In a world where social mobility is becoming harder and harder, and the middle class is shrinking, I would absolutely do what I could to make sure my kids end up on the winning side of that divide. And I understand why many middle class parents are so annoyingly obsessive about eight zillion extracurriculars and resume padding. It's a terrible system, but if you don't do it, what are your chances of getting yourself out of the middle class, or worse, staying there? 

Is this really the case though? Is the ONLY ticket out of poverty or in to the middle class or even beyond Ivy League connections? I think that's either an untrue assumption or if accurate a much more serious problem. Again, not to take away from the awesomeness of Ivy League connections but are there truly to connections to be had at your "University of State" or other? I have a really hard time swallowing that we have to commoditize our children's youth to fit the mold of an institution that is available to a vanishingly small fraction of the population. Clearly it can't be Ivy or bust, can it?

No, I don't think it is. But I think competition for good jobs is getting fiercer and fiercer, and there's a lot of understandable fear that 15 years from now, if you haven't given your child every possible advantage, he or she will be left behind entirely. 

Even the competition for state university admissions has gotten higher and higher. And it's only getting worse. 

[mominatrix]

I might be talking out my butt here.... but don't Ivies do need-blind admission, and also have pretty huge endowments compared with more "middling" liberal-arts type schools?

With those two factors, aren't the Ivies (and their ilk) MORE likely to have numbers of actual middle-class kids than those middling liberal-arts schools, who struggle for donations and have to make more admission decisions based on need?

[ESF]

I actually kind of liked the article.

Sure, his recommendation that one avoid the Ivies is overly simplistic, but I do think his reasoning is incredibly sound. I completely understand the value of the connections one gets having attended an Ivy, and respect and appreciate the people who say that's more important than anything else. For some people, that may very well the case, and it's a completely respectable decision to have made. But I also think he does a good job calling bullshit on the "education" there, and just bursting the myth about what the Ivies actually are. I certainly think that for some poor kids, being in a small pond with academically rigorous training may actually benefit them more than Ivy connections.*

More importantly, he makes a good case for why we should be investing in public higher education.

Aside from the title of the article, what specifically did people take issue with?

* Regarding connections -- I completely agree that the value of the network that comes with an Ivy degree can be priceless.

I also think we underestimate how difficult it is for the poor or even middle class kid to obtain those connections while at an Ivy. They may not be able to do unpaid internships, spend their spring breaks jet setting around H. Thurston Windorsham III's father's Italian villa with the other rich kids, join the costly fraternities, spend their weekends golfing and skiing (both because of the expense and the fact they may have part time jobs), etc etc.

And let's not forget, it's not like you just show up on day 1 and find a bunch of random unknowns. The networks are established long before you get there, and while it's possible to use those networks, don't underestimate how difficult it is to crack into them when you are 18, have never left the country, don't own a set of golf clubs, and don't know which fork to use.

For example, my school was a popular school for children of diplomats and ex-pats in high ranking jobs (UN, World Bank, etc), so there was a huge contingent of kids that had attended English speaking private schools set up near military bases and in strategic, cosmopolitan world cities, and they had their own worldwide private network. I was just not worldly enough to break into that clique. We could be buddies in calculus class, but I was never going to go spend Christmas lounging around with their parents at the embassy in Berlin or Shanghai. But there were other classmates there who would be hanging out in Asia over Christmas, and who could just use some frequent flier miles to pop over for a weekend of fun. And yeah, their access to connections was amazing, but I still couldn't go and work unpaid for a summer in Vietnam, so it didn't matter that someone's dad could get me a job there, KWIM?

That's not to say that the connections aspect is worthless, but that it alone may not always be the best reason to choose a school.

[mrsukyankee]

Jul 28, 2014 13:08:47 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

I would be curious if anyone here was a non-rich kid who ended up in the ivy's.   

Me. I grew up poor as in parents who had to decide if the kids ate or we paid a bill at times. As we got a bit closer to university age it got a touch better but I can say that I never made it beyond lower middle class. I was recruited to play field hockey for an Ivy, worked in the cafeteria for all four years (which was a pain), but in the long run it did help me find jobs. I didn't take as much of an advantage as I could while there, but having it on my resume has really helped me get jobs in the private school world and over here in London it's a big deal (sort of like Oxford & Cambridge are big deals here).  I'm sure I could use it even more to my advantage overseas but I'm too lazy to try to make connections at this moment.  I'll probably be doing so soon by trying to connect to alumni.  And that's one thing you do get - a strong network of people around the world (including other Ivy schools) and the name on your resume.

[Velar Fricative]

Jul 28, 2014 14:03:08 GMT -5 mominatrix said:

I might be talking out my butt here.... but don't Ivies do need-blind admission, and also have pretty huge endowments compared with more "middling" liberal-arts type schools?

With those two factors, aren't the Ivies (and their ilk) MORE likely to have numbers of actual middle-class kids than those middling liberal-arts schools, who struggle for donations and have to make more admission decisions based on need?

That's what I always thought as well. They have so much money that they can afford to give generous financial aid packages.

However, I vaguely recall at least one Ivy not being need-blind, and I think it was Brown. But that was years ago and things might have changed.

[Deleted]

Not many Ivy's out West but I went to UCB, USC, UCLA and name recognition played a factor in moving up. Med school applicants from State schools in CA are not looked at fondly.

[emisi]

This is the part of the article that really spoke to me, as a college grad but also as a mother: 

They ought to place more value on the kind of service jobs that lower-income students often take in high school and that high achievers almost never do. They should refuse to be impressed by any opportunity that was enabled by parental wealth.

I am afraid of what my son's college resume is going to look like when he's applying, frankly.  We aren't wealthy by a long shot, just regular old middle class.  Affording all the "enriching" experiences you need to get into an Ivy (or one of the best public schools in our state) is going to be a huge financial hardship for us.  When I was getting ready to go to college, I did have some volunteer activities, but not a ton.  I got into a good school, one with a ton of rich kids, but I feel like it's getting harder and harder for kids to get into the really good schools (and of course, how we're going to afford it is a totally different can of worms).

So yeah, I kind of feel this guy.  The networking is priceless, but a lot of it now is reserved for people who can afford it to begin with.

[heyjude]

My sister is a post doc at Princeton (obviously not an undergrad situation) but if you get in and need money they will give it to you. Brown is the same way. I think all the ivies are.

[doobeedoo]

Jul 28, 2014 14:14:33 GMT -5 ESF said:

I actually kind of liked the article.

Sure, his recommendation that one avoid the Ivies is overly simplistic, but I do think his reasoning is incredibly sound. I completely understand the value of the connections one gets having attended an Ivy, and respect and appreciate the people who say that's more important than anything else. For some people, that may very well the case, and it's a completely respectable decision to have made. But I also think he does a good job calling bullshit on the "education" there, and just bursting the myth about what the Ivies actually are. I certainly think that for some poor kids, being in a small pond with academically rigorous training may actually benefit them more than Ivy connections.*

More importantly, he makes a good case for why we should be investing in public higher education.

Aside from the title of the article, what specifically did people take issue with?

* Regarding connections -- I completely agree that the value of the network that comes with an Ivy degree can be priceless.

I also think we underestimate how difficult it is for the poor or even middle class kid to obtain those connections while at an Ivy. They may not be able to do unpaid internships, spend their spring breaks jet setting around H. Thurston Windorsham III's father's Italian villa with the other rich kids, join the costly fraternities, spend their weekends golfing and skiing (both because of the expense and the fact they may have part time jobs), etc etc.

And let's not forget, it's not like you just show up on day 1 and find a bunch of random unknowns. The networks are established long before you get there, and while it's possible to use those networks, don't underestimate how difficult it is to crack into them when you are 18, have never left the country, don't own a set of golf clubs, and don't know which fork to use.

For example, my school was a popular school for children of diplomats and ex-pats in high ranking jobs (UN, World Bank, etc), so there was a huge contingent of kids that had attended English speaking private schools set up near military bases and in strategic, cosmopolitan world cities, and they had their own worldwide private network. I was just not worldly enough to break into that clique. We could be buddies in calculus class, but I was never going to go spend Christmas lounging around with their parents at the embassy in Berlin or Shanghai. But there were other classmates there who would be hanging out in Asia over Christmas, and who could just use some frequent flier miles to pop over for a weekend of fun. And yeah, their access to connections was amazing, but I still couldn't go and work unpaid for a summer in Vietnam, so it didn't matter that someone's dad could get me a job there, KWIM?

That's not to say that the connections aspect is worthless, but that it alone may not always be the best reason to choose a school.

This times eleventy!  

[ESF]

Regarding need blind admissions - that's a farce.  So they don't get your FAFSA.  But there are so many other markers in your application that can tell colleges about your income --- your last name, your location, your high school, your extracirriculars, things in your essay, your parents' education, etc etc.

I think this is probably why the middle class gets screwed.  They probably don't have the markers to indicate wealth (certain private high schools, etc) and they don't have the markers to indicate triumph over adversity that poorer students may have (in particular, in their essays).

[ttt]

Jul 28, 2014 14:42:11 GMT -5 emisi said:

This is the part of the article that really spoke to me, as a college grad but also as a mother: 

They ought to place more value on the kind of service jobs that lower-income students often take in high school and that high achievers almost never do. They should refuse to be impressed by any opportunity that was enabled by parental wealth.

I am afraid of what my son's college resume is going to look like when he's applying, frankly.  We aren't wealthy by a long shot, just regular old middle class.  Affording all the "enriching" experiences you need to get into an Ivy (or one of the best public schools in our state) is going to be a huge financial hardship for us.  When I was getting ready to go to college, I did have some volunteer activities, but not a ton.  I got into a good school, one with a ton of rich kids, but I feel like it's getting harder and harder for kids to get into the really good schools (and of course, how we're going to afford it is a totally different can of worms).

So yeah, I kind of feel this guy.  The networking is priceless, but a lot of it now is reserved for people who can afford it to begin with.

I think this is all true, but his solution seems to be "so don't bother to apply there, not-rich kids. Just go to another extremely expensive but not as famous school and you'll get a better education and that's all that matters!" I don't think that's very helpful for middle class and below kids or parents. 

[heyjude]

My H was a poor poor immigrant kid who got into an ivy. In some ways it helped him. In some ways it didn't. For example in CA where he ended up after undergrad having an ivy background just doesn't have the same connections as one of the many great public universities here. His local alumni group is super small.