I might be talking out my butt here.... but don't Ivies do need-blind admission, and also have pretty huge endowments compared with more "middling" liberal-arts type schools?
With those two factors, aren't the Ivies (and their ilk) MORE likely to have numbers of actual middle-class kids than those middling liberal-arts schools, who struggle for donations and have to make more admission decisions based on need?
I'm not sure if they all they do needs-blind admissions and I wouldn't hold my breath that they always will, but Harvard has the largest endowment of any US college or university, at the very least (I'm not sure about schools in other countries). So if any school can afford to be generous with financial aid, that's the one.
Like PP said, all schools need SOME people to pay the full cost of attendance, but if my child needed financial aid to attend college, I would not simply dismiss Ivies out of hand.
I can admit that the lack of diversity and the failure of their attempts to fix it could be an issue. I'd weigh that against the benefits (but in the end, it would be my child's decision).
Also, several of the Ivies give grants up to the cost of attendance to ALL students who come from families with a house hold income of less than $100k. Which is certainly middle class.
Not many Ivy's out West but I went to UCB, USC, UCLA and name recognition played a factor in moving up. Med school applicants from State schools in CA are not looked at fondly.
Aren't UCB and UCLA state schools?
CA has a two tiered system. Universities of California (UCLA, UC Berkeley, etc) and state colleges, e.g. Humbolt state, San Francisco state, etc.
I think this is not uncommon. Massachusetts is the same way. The UMass system is considered the flagship, the state colleges are beneath that. There's less of a discrepancy between the two, particularly for some kinds of programs, but it's still there.
Shoot. My DD is totally going to Princeton because they will pay for it! We already told her this when we toured the campus last year with her. She's in! She has a t-shirt and everything.
Look at those questions and just try to tell me that admissions is "need-blind" because they don't see whether you are applying for financial aid or not.
Look at those questions and just try to tell me that admissions is "need-blind" because they don't see whether you are applying for financial aid or not.
I think some 60% of Princeton kids get financial aid tho through their no loan program.
I NEED this to be true because every dollar I spend on makeup I think: "this could go to my kid's college fund!" Lol!
So this guy basically published the same article about 6 years ago, and I get the same vibe from this one. "I'm super privileged and lived in a bubble, therefore everyone who attends an elite school lives in a bubble."
Also, his description of "at elite schools, everyone gets an A and you can get an extension whenever you want" does not match my experience in the slightest.
So this guy basically published the same article about 6 years ago, and I get the same vibe from this one. "I'm super privileged and lived in a bubble, therefore everyone who attends an elite school lives in a bubble."
Also, his description of "at elite schools, everyone gets an A and you can get an extension whenever you want" does not match my experience in the slightest.
I looked him up on wiki, and this kind of made me go (huh)
He claims that elite institutions produce students who are unable to communicate with people who don't have the same background as themselves, using his own inability to talk to his plumber as his first example. Deresiewicz uses Al Gore and George W. Bush, graduates of Harvard and Yale respectively, as examples of politicians that are out of touch with the lives of most Americans.
Now, I really want to read the book to hear more about his struggle with talking to the plumber.
You don't have to! It's detailed in the article I posted! It's definitely :^)
It's not Yale's fault that you don't know how to make small talk with a stranger.
I looked him up on wiki, and this kind of made me go (huh)
He claims that elite institutions produce students who are unable to communicate with people who don't have the same background as themselves, using his own inability to talk to his plumber as his first example. Deresiewicz uses Al Gore and George W. Bush, graduates of Harvard and Yale respectively, as examples of politicians that are out of touch with the lives of most Americans.
Now, I really want to read the book to hear more about his struggle with talking to the plumber.
You don't have to! It's detailed in the article I posted! It's definitely :^)
It's not Yale's fault that you don't know how to make small talk with a stranger.
I agree it's not Yale's fault, that shit is ingrained in kids from the time of their birth.
I have known people like this though, it's not just this one guy. Once I dated a guy who found out that my sister's 21 year old boyfriend had never been on an airplane. For WEEKS, he kept saying that he didn't understand how that was possible. I didn't understand how he could be so confused. I mean, what's so hard to understand about a 21 year old kid in a rural area not growing up with enough money for plane travel, and to the extent he had disposable income, not electing to spend it in that way. But this was the most perplexing thing in the world to him.
He did not go to an Ivy, but he did go to high school with Chelsea Clinton and other children of DC notoriety. It's the preferred high school of the DC liberal elite, proving that out-of-touch knows no political persuasion.
You don't have to! It's detailed in the article I posted! It's definitely :^)
It's not Yale's fault that you don't know how to make small talk with a stranger.
I agree it's not Yale's fault, that shit is ingrained in kids from the time of their birth.
I have known people like this though, it's not just this one guy. Once I dated a guy who found out that my sister's 21 year old boyfriend had never been on an airplane. For WEEKS, he kept saying that he didn't understand how that was possible. I didn't understand how he could be so confused. I mean, what's so hard to understand about a 21 year old kid in a rural area not growing up with enough money for plane travel, and to the extent he had disposable income, not electing to spend it in that way. But this was the most perplexing thing in the world to him.
He did not go to an Ivy, but he did go to high school with Chelsea Clinton and other children of DC notoriety. It's the preferred high school of the DC liberal elite, proving that out-of-touch knows no political persuasion.
Oh yeah. I know some alumni of That School. Actually one of my good friends went there when Chelsea was there, although she's definitely not the out of touch stereotype.
I really think this is a failure of parenting along with education. Your children should not be this sheltered by the age of 18.
Yes there's some counter to this article maybe by Slate? "These schools don't produce douches. Douches raised by other douches go to these schools." Or some such. Honestly I only skimmed.
Yes there's some counter to this article maybe by Slate? "These schools don't produce douches. Douches raised by other douches go to these schools." Or some such. Honestly I only skimmed.
This is so so true. It's silly to act like these kids suddenly became the way they are the minute they walked onto campus.
You don't have to! It's detailed in the article I posted! It's definitely :^)
It's not Yale's fault that you don't know how to make small talk with a stranger.
I agree it's not Yale's fault, that shit is ingrained in kids from the time of their birth.
I have known people like this though, it's not just this one guy. Once I dated a guy who found out that my sister's 21 year old boyfriend had never been on an airplane. For WEEKS, he kept saying that he didn't understand how that was possible. I didn't understand how he could be so confused. I mean, what's so hard to understand about a 21 year old kid in a rural area not growing up with enough money for plane travel, and to the extent he had disposable income, not electing to spend it in that way. But this was the most perplexing thing in the world to him.
He did not go to an Ivy, but he did go to high school with Chelsea Clinton and other children of DC notoriety. It's the preferred high school of the DC liberal elite, proving that out-of-touch knows no political persuasion.
I agree with the bolded, and I painted that a little in my first post/question, but I also agree with a few others who were exposed to more and found very grounded rich people also. I didn't discuss my friend whose parents were diplomats and she had lived in South America and Africa throughout childhood and had already started a non-profit for health care assistance (travel money) for families by the time she arrived at school. Or a guy who was super driven and was captain of the crew team, a physics major, led the student government, and a fantastic person who volunteered at the local soup kitchen and set-up a rotation of volunteers to do the dishes for 2-months straight including spent Christmas break away from his family in order to stay and work at the shelter kitchen. Some sometimes their wealth was worn as a privilege and sometimes it provided a financial freedom so they could leverage the wealth around them for good programs.
There were less rich people there and I was honestly star-struck by some of the most affluent kids. Plus most of them were still 18-20 year old kids, who had only ever known money and were just trying to figure out what being in the real world and away from their parents meant as much as I was.
CA has a two tiered system. Universities of California (UCLA, UC Berkeley, etc) and state colleges, e.g. Humbolt state, San Francisco state, etc.
I think this is not uncommon. Massachusetts is the same way. The UMass system is considered the flagship, the state colleges are beneath that. There's less of a discrepancy between the two, particularly for some kinds of programs, but it's still there.
Yeah--it's a terminology thing. In Indiana (and every other place I've lived before CA), "state school" and "public [post-secondary] school" are synonymous. Whereas in CA there are "UCs" and "state schools" (CSUs). New York has SUNY schools and CUNY schools, though the latter are only in the city, I assume. But I think the ratio of public to private schools increases as you head West. And most of the elite public schools in the country are UCs.
CA has a two tiered system. Universities of California (UCLA, UC Berkeley, etc) and state colleges, e.g. Humbolt state, San Francisco state, etc.
I think this is not uncommon. Massachusetts is the same way. The UMass system is considered the flagship, the state colleges are beneath that. There's less of a discrepancy between the two, particularly for some kinds of programs, but it's still there.
Yeah--it's a terminology thing. In Indiana (and every other place I've lived before CA), "state school" and "public [post-secondary] school" are synonymous. Whereas in CA there are "UCs" and "state schools" (CSUs). New York has SUNY schools and CUNY schools, though the latter are only in the city, I assume. But I think the ratio of public to private schools increases as you head West. And most of the elite public schools in the country are UCs.
Yep, just terminology. I have been to two community colleges, a state college, two UC schools and a private.
The differences between UCs and State colleges in CA are huge. Some states schools are well respected, others not so much. And with the ongoing budget crisis, quality has gone down.
I agree with ESF. I went to an elite school (not an Ivy!) I think it's name certainly helped me when applying for law school. But I have remarkably few connections from there. I was friends with lots of people like me (upper middle class, maybe Obama Rich) and that was my circle and my connections (although not much for connections).
I was friends with super rich people though (not as close though) and they all DID have connections. But I simply could not afford to move in their circles and so our friendship was limited and so were my connections and networking as a result. I didn't set out to make friends based on future connections so at the time this thought wasn't even in my brain.
But looking back the education I received and the name value were both worth going there over a cheaper school. But connections were absolutely not a real benefit from my school.
Premise: Ivy's do nothing but reinforce and perpetuate the growing class divide and provide substandard education as a result of catering to the "best and brightest" as customers who cannot be challenged.
I would be curious if anyone here was a non-rich kid who ended up in the ivy's. I was somewhat (middle class kid from small town that ended up getting into Stanford, MIT, Northwestern, etc.,). I don't feel it was the university that pushed the growing divide, but socially I felt the push when I was the only kid I knew with a job (both a work study and off-campus job) in addition to classes and got to visit other classmate's penthouse apartments that their parents bought just to visit their kids at university or the guy who had a tux handmade for him for a fraternity formal or the roommate who broke up with her boyfriend and so her mom surprise flew her to Paris for a long weekend. Rich people are different.
I am.
I'd consider myself firmly middle class. Both parents worked, we worked growing up. I went to Yale and I was definitely out of my league in some ways. I was the only one of my friends who had a job, let alone 2 (I worked in the dining hall, and as a bartender) just to buy books and have spending money. It did feel like most everyone else could just call home and money would arrive.
That said, I managed. I have great friends from college. I managed to find a niche and laugh at/ignore the people who I thought were so out of touch they weren't going to make it in the real world.
"Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.”
I agree it's not Yale's fault, that shit is ingrained in kids from the time of their birth.
I have known people like this though, it's not just this one guy. Once I dated a guy who found out that my sister's 21 year old boyfriend had never been on an airplane. For WEEKS, he kept saying that he didn't understand how that was possible. I didn't understand how he could be so confused. I mean, what's so hard to understand about a 21 year old kid in a rural area not growing up with enough money for plane travel, and to the extent he had disposable income, not electing to spend it in that way. But this was the most perplexing thing in the world to him.
He did not go to an Ivy, but he did go to high school with Chelsea Clinton and other children of DC notoriety. It's the preferred high school of the DC liberal elite, proving that out-of-touch knows no political persuasion.
Oh yeah. I know some alumni of That School. Actually one of my good friends went there when Chelsea was there, although she's definitely not the out of touch stereotype.
I really think this is a failure of parenting along with education. Your children should not be this sheltered by the age of 18.
Particularly when That School pretends to be Quaker in value...NOPE.
"Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.”
I honestly don't think the in-class education one gets at an Ivy is better than the education one gets in many non-ivy schools.
What one does get, though, is connections. And the name on the resume. And exposure of the type downtoearth was talking about. And those things are incredibly valuable. So valuable that if my kid had the opportunity for it, I wouldn't dream of turning it down.
Yes to the bolded. I like the idea of public universities, I went to a public university, but if my kids get into ivy's then that's where they're going. If they want to, that is.
One of the saddest "This American Life" episodes I've ever heard was one about a low income kid who got into an Ivy. On paper, he looked great, but when he got there, he found that not only did he have the cultural capital to do...well...anything with the other students but that the habits that had gotten him out of his shitty neighborhood (don't look people in the eye, don't trust anyone to help you with things, don't ask for help because you can't trust people, avoid authority figures) were precisely the skills he needed to succeed in college.
One of the saddest "This American Life" episodes I've ever heard was one about a low income kid who got into an Ivy. On paper, he looked great, but when he got there, he found that not only did he have the cultural capital to do...well...anything with the other students but that the habits that had gotten him out of his shitty neighborhood (don't look people in the eye, don't trust anyone to help you with things, don't ask for help because you can't trust people, avoid authority figures) were precisely the skills he needed to succeed in college.
I read something somewhat recently that chronicled a few poor but brilliant kids and their struggle to go to college. For one young man, the actual idea of going to an Ivy (living away from home, a plan ride away, leaving family behind, etc.) was incomprehensible, so he didn't. Does anyone remember this? It's not enough to be able to get in, the whole college experience needs to be considered.
I didn't go to an ivy, but I went to a top 25 ranked school. My dad was a mail man and my mom didn't work, so we didn't have a ton of money. Because it's a big computer/engineering school, it was fairly diverse, though it was heavily weighted toward students from Asian countries.
I was in a sorority, and I'd say about 30-40% of us had to work to pay dues, have spending money etc. DH went to the same school I did, and he was fairly well off and went to a private NYC school K-12. I'm the student loan burden in our household
The irony of this article being published in the New Republic, where the Masthead is full of Ivy League graduates, isn't lost on me.
I mean, I think the message is probably good, but I guarantee you that Chris Hughes is damn glad he went to Harvard. Otherwise he doesn't become the little-known Facebook cofounder, have a net worth of over $1B, and have the money to buy the New Republic.
And I'm pretty sure the COO of the New Republic got that job in part through knowing Chris during... His time at Harvard.
This is a good point. It's the luxury of having GONE to an Ivy perhaps that one could disparage the experience. Kind of like when, as starving postdocs, H and I were visiting the summer home of a very wealthy friend, her exceedingly wealthy parents reflected that the happiest time of their lives was when they were broke and just starting out. It was so romantic to hear them tell it from the exquisite ocean front property in view of AC. We felt no such romance at our situation - just panic that we struggled to pay our bills.
I went to a state university that was basically a glorified community college. Minimal loans and they're now paid off. A young coworker who's in the same position as me - actually, a step lower, I think - is *constantly* bragging about having attended the costliest school** in the nation. It cracks me up every time.