Post by autumnfire on Jul 29, 2014 11:31:46 GMT -5
I have to echo piaffe here and suggest that the dog be put down if no reputable place will take him. I'd have to be sure that he acts okay around older people and that it's just strictly children. Given that you were attacked makes me wonder if MIL has had any problems, not biting but aggression from the dog? Given that your MIL lets him roam around is rather unsafe not only for her neighbors dogs but other people, she is held liable for whatever the dog does to someone else. If there is a fear here and she won't take him I don't know many others unless they have a background in trying to fix this type of behavior would take them. To be completely honest I don't know if I'd be comfortable giving the dog to someone else and then them having a bad attack happen to them. I am a huge dog lover and side eye a lot of owners who have stand in pets before children. (Not directing at you just overall). When the situation becomes dangerous to you and your children then something has to be done and even people like me have to realize that.
No flaming here I just don't know how realistic it's going to be to re-home him and again if I'm not comfortable with the dog in my home I can't in good coincidence send the dog to another home where the same thing could happen.
Also I wouldn't be so quick to be irritated with MIL. She realizes she has no time for him and that he's roaming when she can't keep a handle on things. Much like your situation (although more severe) you realized your situation was not good for the dog so you had to rehome, she is realizing the same thing just not to the extreme extents. Honestly, I don't think your MIL should have taken him to begin with. Did she just feel bad? Is she a big animal lover? My IL's took my BIL's dog even though they took him he was always in some way BIL's dog. (no aggressiveness issues, issues with rentals with pets)
Also not flaming but most rescues unless they are set up like best friends won't take a dog with a bite history. It's too much of a liability for them. If you both and your mil are unwilling to keep him I'd put him down. I know that sucks and will be extremely hard but he'd be surrounded by people he knows and loved.
This is true, and unfortunately it's a very tough decision that I have had to guide people to make when I worked in intake. It's a humongous liability for a shelter to adopt out a dog with bite history. BUT - we have an awesome behavior staff at our shelter that has worked with bite cases and rehabilitated them to the point of adoptability - so it can be done! You just need to find the right rescue group/shelter.
Umm yeah, we're a little bit past Level 1 obedience. Good Lord.
My boyfriend and I are pretty active in the dog community and without a doubt do not recommend he be brought to a shelter. The humane society is a fabulous organization and help thousands of animals and their owners but in this case it wouldn't be in his best interest (and clearly you on some level still care about the dog, otherwise you wouldn't care what your MIL does with him!!).
I've worked with and have a lot of experience with several different rescues and they have been able to place dogs that were deemed "un-adoptable" so there is hope for him!! PM me if you would like a few names and phone numbers.
This is so tough. I think the reality is some dogs are just not suited to share a home with children. Period. My sister's bulldog started acting out after they had kids, so she came to live with my mom and sometimes me (before kids) and she was wonderful. She needed a home where she could be the focus.
I would definitely look into a rescue option. There are people sans kids, who I am sure would be happy to take him.
Has he shown aggression or snapped at your MIL since being rehomed? Does he show aggression to any of the other dogs? Or any of the neighbors? Do the neighbors have children, and if so, has he been aggressive to them?
I think there are a billion other things you can do other than to put the dog down. Maybe he just needs a home with no kids and it's simple as that. You don't know unless you ask and get expertise from a professional.
Talk to rescue groups, specifically breed related rescues. Be frank and honest about the issues and why you won't bring him back into the home. They are professionals and they will work with other professionals to determine what his triggers are and what can be done to help him. They won't place him in a home unless they are sure that everyone will be safe, and they won't place him in a home with known triggers.
If there isn't anything that can be done, the best possible solution for everyone, him included, would be to humanely euthanize him. He isn't safe to be placed in a home right now with out training, and you aren't in a position to take that on.
There was no bite history prior to the baby, right?
Yes he has nipped us in the past, especially when he doesn't want to give up something. He has tried to bite us too- but this was the worst one. He usually shows aggression when he doesn't want to give up something and I believe we've gotten lucky with him not causing an injury to us/anyone else.
I think you are in MN? My friend's stepmom runs rescuedtails.org. I have no idea if they would take the dog, but I know she is a good person and would never put him down. So maybe check it out.
There was no bite history prior to the baby, right?
Yes he has nipped us in the past, especially when he doesn't want to give up something. He has tried to bite us too- but this was the worst one. He usually shows aggression when he doesn't want to give up something and I believe we've gotten lucky with him not causing an injury to us/anyone else.
So he is an aggressive dog.
I'm on the BOD for a breed-specific rescue and our bylaws state we can not take a dog into our rescue (owner surrender, shelter, etc) if it has a bite history. It is too much liability on the rescue. I'm not sure how many rescues would take a dog with a bite history.
You can reach out to them and they may provide more resources for you - i know we try to help as many dogs as we can, even if we can't take them into our program.
Post by thebuddhagouda on Jul 29, 2014 12:03:57 GMT -5
Am I the only person remembering the original thread? We're not talking a little nip here if the dog had to be pried off and you wound up in the ER. I feel like I'm in the twilight zone with the different stories.
This is so tough. I think the reality is some dogs are just not suited to share a home with children. Period. My sister's bulldog started acting out after they had kids, so she came to live with my mom and sometimes me (before kids) and she was wonderful. She needed a home where she could be the focus.
I would definitely look into a rescue option. There are people sans kids, who I am sure would be happy to take him.
Has he attacked your MIL at all?
No he hasn't attacked anyone else after me.
I think you had a combination of issues that led to the attack. 1) he has a strong prey defense drive (not uncommon in hunting dogs like Labs, it's why labs have the highest number of bite incidents most years) 2) his pack structure was messed with, Labs tend to bond very tightly with their packs, it's why they make good family dogs most of the time they will protect/nurture/look after their pack to the best of their abilities, but the flip side is that if the pack is added to it can throw them for a huge loop until they adjust to the new member/new structure (i.e. figures out where new person falls in the hierarchy)
Both of which can be addressed behavorially and largely by establishing clear pack structure and rules.
Post by sofamonkey on Jul 29, 2014 12:13:26 GMT -5
I can see how you feel guilty about putting the dog down. I do. But that guilt cannot be more important than the safety of other people. You, rightfully so, don't want this dog near you or your kids. After reading this, and then the OP from the attack, I really think you need to do some serious thinking about putting the dog down.
Also, I am just baffled that you would allow (yes ALLOW) a dog with this history to roam around unattended at your MILs. He is your responsibility, even if she said she would take care of him. You should have know what his living situation would be, and roaming free is not cool. You are very lucky that he hasn't attacked someone else, honestly. He easily could pick up some kids (or adults) toy/property, and then attacked when that person simply tried to get it back. I cannot fathom how you think this is OK. Ignorance of the situation is a poor excuse, but it sounds like maybe you knew already that MIL was letting him roam. It is very dangerous & irresponsible for you to have allowed this.
Don't hunting dogs usually just retrieve dead animals? I don't think they have a higher kill drive than any other dog, at least if we're talking hunting dogs like labs, golden retrievers, etc. I thought hunting dogs were actually supposed to be gentle because the hunter kills the animal and the dog goes and finds it and brings it back as whole as possible so the hunter can eat it.
Am I wrong?
As an aside, I don't see how the OP's H thinks that putting the dog down is better than rehoming it if he wants to continue to see the dog. He realizes being dead means he won't see the dog either, right?
OP I am sorry you are in this situation. It sounds like you want to do the right thing for everyone and there are no easy answers about what that is.
Post by dragonfly08 on Jul 29, 2014 12:28:26 GMT -5
No flames here. I had to rehome a dog I'd owned for 12 years, b/c once DD #1 got mobile, he went for her and I couldn't risk it happening again or being much worse (fortunately I was standing right there and he did not hurt her).
We had an amazing local rescue group we worked with. They put him in a foster home within 24 hours of my call, and had a permanent placement for him within a week or two. With a child-free family that had a large, fenced yard he could play in and enjoy. For the first few months I was allowed to call for general updates...no specifics on where he was or with whom, but they'd tell me how he was adjusting and the like. Win-win for everyone, IMO. If there's a group like that anywhere near you it would be a great option. I found ours through my vet so that's a place to start, as are groomers (it was actually the groomer at my vet who worked with this group).
Am I the only person remembering the original thread? We're not talking a little nip here if the dog had to be pried off and you wound up in the ER. I feel like I'm in the twilight zone with the different stories.
And it was also completely provoked, particularly given the history of his possessive aggressive behavior. It didn't come out of nowhere.
I don't fault mekia for being uncomfortable with him with a baby in the house - I can't imagine how scary that must have been. I just think it means there's a lot of hope for him with the right owner.
I agree that there is plenty of hope with him with the right owner, but surely you agree that there is a difference between a provoked bite and a provoked mauling? It's not just that Tucker showed a lack of restraint in the decision to bite at all but he exhibited almost no bite inhibition. Based on what Mekia has shared, even the Ian Dunbar scale would rate Tucker at a level 4 biter, and potentially a level 5... the long term life care of dogs in those bite ranges is extremely extensive, even with tremendous behavioral rehabilitation. www.dogtalk.com/BiteAssessmentScalesDunbarDTMRoss.pdf
As someone who has worked with extremely aggressive dogs, I am ALL FOR there being no such thing as an unprovoked bite, but I think it is a disservice to both the dog and the owner to behave as though all bites are created equal and Tucker's particular bite quality will require very careful placement. Which, I am not getting the impression you are disagreeing with but I am prickling because you have a tone that seems to imply that Mekia should have done more. I don't know. This stuff is just such a bummer for everyone involved. I'm really sorry for the decisions you are facing, Mekia.
This is unfair. He is bred to hunt, that is a biological fact. Many dog breeds are really well suited to having a 'job'. Hunting =/= aggression.
Yeah, this is super unfair. Most dogs who are specifically bred to hunt have extremely soft mouths... so as not to, you know, eat the thing they are bringing back to their owner lol!
I haven't read the thread all the way yet, but I would look into rescue groups in the cities.
Secondhand Hounds takes owner surrenders, and I think save-a-bull and a rotta love will take dogs with some aggression history.
He's a hunting dog, right? You could also look at forums or boards where people are looking for hunting dogs. Especially if it's a single dude or someone who has kennels.
Am I the only person remembering the original thread? We're not talking a little nip here if the dog had to be pried off and you wound up in the ER. I feel like I'm in the twilight zone with the different stories.
I know, it was wicked bad. I remember it being worse too because it was her hand and she signs, so having him around was a risk to her ability to communicate, if he were to bite her hand again.
He dragged her around the room ffs. And h had to pry him off. What if he hasn't been there? What if she had been holding E?
I love dogs and all animals, but come on. This wasn't a nip that was provoked . This was an attack and a bad one at that.
Good luck Mia. I can't even imagine how you're feeling. I wish you luck in finding a place for the dog. I'm sure he has nice moments (hasn't bitten MIL, although honestly. If she knew she had him bc he bit you so badly, I'm not convinced she really gave him many opportunities to bite her, kwim?).
If I was caring for a dog that viciously attacked it's previous owner of a few years, I wouldn't be giving it too many chances to attack me either.
I agree that there is plenty of hope with him with the right owner, but surely you agree that there is a difference between a provoked bite and a provoked mauling? It's not just that Tucker showed a lack of restraint in the decision to bite at all but he exhibited almost no bite inhibition. Based on what Mekia has shared, even the Ian Dunbar scale would rate Tucker at a level 4 biter, and potentially a level 5... the long term life care of dogs in those bite ranges is extremely extensive, even with tremendous behavioral rehabilitation. www.dogtalk.com/BiteAssessmentScalesDunbarDTMRoss.pdf
As someone who has worked with extremely aggressive dogs, I am ALL FOR there being no such thing as an unprovoked bite, but I think it is a disservice to both the dog and the owner to behave as though all bites are created equal and Tucker's particular bite quality will require very careful placement. Which, I am not getting the impression you are disagreeing with but I am prickling because you have a tone that seems to imply that Mekia should have done more. I don't know. This stuff is just such a bummer for everyone involved. I'm really sorry for the decisions you are facing, Mekia.
Hindsight is 20/20. I absolutely think there was more that could have been done. The dog had nipped & growled repeatedly over similar circumstances - it is absolutely not a surprise that it escalated.
Do I blame them? No. I've had dogs that died under preventable circumstances (I had a dog drown when I was inside, not supervising.) Hindsight is 20/20 on that, too, and while I can't change anything, I don't beat myself up over it - I use that knowledge to be a better owner going forward. I should have watched my dog. I didn't. My dog died. I have to live with that, but it would be a disservice to me & my status as a pet owner to not acknowledge my role in what happened.
So, be prickly with me if you want. mekia was bit, it sucks. Absolutely. She didn't deserve it. But I also don't trust mekia's judgment on dog behavior, which is why I am suggesting a behaviorist which would be an unbiased third party to evaluate the dog.
Not to mention the OP (without background knowledge) made it seem like it was because a new family member was there.
Given that this was going on before the new family dynamic change I'm inclined to agree. No it's not anyone's fault but the warning signs were there well before the baby arrived. I also agree with the other person who said I'd be having your MIL stop his roaming privledges. Dogs can claim anything they want, what happens when he claims something when he's just roaming and someone trys to take it back and gets hurt?
He needs to be supervised and I don't think anyone will disagree with this. I think it's a good idea that your MIL gives him up. Nothing has happened yet but can anyone honestly say they're comfortable with chancing it?
Thank you OP for calling the resources that people have offered up. I hope one of these places are able to take him in and help fix his behavioral issues!
Ugh, I'm so sorry What a truly difficult situation. No flames from me, and I hope everyone else is gentle with you. I would not give the dog a 2nd chance in my own home with my child. One attack would be it for me, and no amount of behaviour therapy or training would convince me to put my baby in a position of "what ifs".
I would contact a rescue group and be completely upfront about the dog's history and the attack. I wish I had more ideas, but I dont. I'm sorry
This is where it gets tricky. I used to sit on the board of a local rescue organization and if we knowingly take in a dog that has shown aggression before and attacked (mind you every person's interpretation of "attack" is different) then we can be liable if the dog does it again and ends up hurting someone.
I'm not saying hide it from a rescue but I'm just letting you know that they might not be willing to take him in based on his history. Is there any family with older kids that might like a dog? A couple from church?
This is unfair. He is bred to hunt, that is a biological fact. Many dog breeds are really well suited to having a 'job'. Hunting =/= aggression.
I have a "hunting dog". A coon hound. I've had her five years, got her from a rescue, from another state, we had absolutely no knowledge of her history aside from yup, we found her pregnant on the side of the road.
In the five years we've owned her, she has barely noticed another animal. I've since given up, but I used to show her bunnies, she just stood there, we were two feet from a wild turkey and I was like look, look right there, aren't you a hunting dog??? She wouldn't even look where I was pointing. I could smell the thing ffs . She was all derr.
So while it is likely hunting dogs have instinct to hunt, they are, as far as I know, not trained to kill, aren't they supposed to gently, quietly point out prey to their owners?
Mine is meant to tree animals, some point, etc. but it's my understanding they need to be quiet and tame and listen very well to owners, an out of control (meaning doesn't listen to it's owners) hunting dog is like the most useless thing, right?
Maybe I'm completely off base in my understanding of hunting dogs.
Ugh, I'm so sorry What a truly difficult situation. No flames from me, and I hope everyone else is gentle with you. I would not give the dog a 2nd chance in my own home with my child. One attack would be it for me, and no amount of behaviour therapy or training would convince me to put my baby in a position of "what ifs".
I would contact a rescue group and be completely upfront about the dog's history and the attack. I wish I had more ideas, but I dont. I'm sorry
This is where it gets tricky. I used to sit on the board of a local rescue organization and if we knowingly take in a dog that has shown aggression before and attacked (mind you every person's interpretation of "attack" is different) then we can be liable if the dog does it again and ends up hurting someone.
I'm not saying hide it from a rescue but I'm just letting you know that they might not be willing to take him in based on his history. Is there any family with older kids that might like a dog? A couple from church?
Yes, she knows they might not be willing to take a dog with her dog's history. And I know mekiakoo will be absolutely up front with anyone she speaks to regarding the dog's history, so that's not my concern.
It's VERY concerning that you, as someone who as worked with a rescue, would suggest being anything other than 100% open about the actual event, or to put a dog into a home with any children, considering the dog attacked (not an interpretation) an adult.
I have only skimmed the responses, so apologies for repetition.
1. I definitely recommend looking at a local rescue and be completely upfront about Tucker's problems. I wouldn't describe him as "aggressive" or "threat" to the rescue. Just tell them what happened and they can figure out if it's an aggression issue or a treatable behavior condition.
2. I've emailed a local foster group describing your situation. I'll get back if they have any advice.
3. I have a lovely friend who has a lovely GSD called Titan. He was completely "untrainable" and "aggressive" and was an owner surrender. She rescued him, fostered him, behavior trained him and I'm telling you, I've never seen a happier dog in my life. In the end, she decided to adopt him too and he now lives with her other GSD and Dobie. He also has a pet cat that he is in love with now. (This is what I mean by not armchair diagnosing your dog especially while rehoming. Only a behavior specialist can do that.) There might be hope for Tucker. Check every avenue available to you. I know that my friend would help you in a heartbeat but unfortunately she lives in canada land. So, I'm going to mail my friend too to ask if she knows anyone in your state. MN, right?