This is where it gets tricky. I used to sit on the board of a local rescue organization and if we knowingly take in a dog that has shown aggression before and attacked (mind you every person's interpretation of "attack" is different) then we can be liable if the dog does it again and ends up hurting someone.
I'm not saying hide it from a rescue but I'm just letting you know that they might not be willing to take him in based on his history. Is there any family with older kids that might like a dog? A couple from church?
Yes, she knows they might not be willing to take a dog with her dog's history. And I know mekiakoo will be absolutely up front with anyone she speaks to regarding the dog's history, so that's not my concern.
It's VERY concerning that you, as someone who as worked with a rescue, would suggest being anything other than 100% open about the actual event, or to put a dog into a home with any children, considering the dog attacked (not an interpretation) an adult.
Did you read what I wrote? I told her NOT to hide it from the rescue, but instead to be upfront about it but also know ahead of time they may have to let her know they are unable to take the dog. And by older kids I meant like 16 and up. Old enough where they can understand things like an adult! Also, I never disputed her attack.
If the story had been "My DH grabbed me by the hand a dragged me around the room and had to be pulled off by the police and I ended up in the ER with severe damage to my hand" - the answer would not be to get him some counselling.
This is NOT a dog that deserves extra chances. I'm sorry (not sorry). There are a lot of GOOD non-aggressive, non-biting dogs that deserve a good home before this dog. This dog will always be a risk, behaviorists, training, etc - cannot fix a dog that has a defect to this level. That level of bite is also unacceptable in a hunting dog. This dog will always be a bite waiting to happen. Why is that ok?
Oh and mekiakoo, not sure if this place has been recommended yet or not. They are about 30 minutes south of St. Paul and are wonderful! We donate to them monthly and went to their open house last weekend. Great organization, place and people. Definitely look into if they would be able to take him.
What? How can you compare a human dragging someone around to a dog. A human is capable of controlling emotions. A dog in an animal that acts on instinct. Wtf?
Anyway, I'm sorry you're in this position mekiakoo
The Midwest is full of hunting dogs (whether they are from a breeder or not). The majority of them are also amazing family dogs and just because they have been trained to work doesn't mean they have some sort of prey drive.
When we adopted our dog (lab mix) there was also a litter of shepherd/collie mixes. The rescue warned us that the shepherd mixes have the prey drive, not the labs.
If the story had been "My DH grabbed me by the hand a dragged me around the room and had to be pulled off by the police and I ended up in the ER with severe damage to my hand" - the answer would not be to get him some counselling.
This is NOT a dog that deserves extra chances. I'm sorry (not sorry). There are a lot of GOOD non-aggressive, non-biting dogs that deserve a good home before this dog. This dog will always be a risk, behaviorists, training, etc - cannot fix a dog that has a defect to this level. That level of bite is also unacceptable in a hunting dog. This dog will always be a bite waiting to happen. Why is that ok?
Wait--you're comparing a dog who has possession aggession to an abusive spouse? What?
For the record, I absolutely do NOT think mekia should keep this dog in her home. But there are definitely behaviorists who can and will work with a dog who has this issue. I am not saying this will work out simply for the fact that, as PPs have pointed out, it may be difficult to get a rescue to take him under his wing. But the issue this dog has is not all that uncommon. The bite was definitely serious, but it sounds like there had been a lot of build-up to that incident, first starting with nips and then escalating after a long time without training for it.
NOT blaming Mekia. At all. Just saying that, while it is horrible she got attacked, I am not surprised it escalated that way.
But anyway, I have absolutely seen aggressive dogs--dogs who were actually bred to be fighting dogs--rehabilitated with the right group/behaviorist and adopted out. It can happen. Not sure why you are saying it absolutely can't or where you get your odd comparison from.
I see what you're saying, TC, but I feel like mp is just advocating for the dog, but not necessarily at the expense of Meki. I don't think anyone is categorizing Meki as a person who gives up her dog post child all willy nilly.
I see it from both sides which is why I'm all up in this post. I don't regret working so hard with my dog, he's amazing now, but if I had had a new baby here at the time, I probably would have made different choices.
I know mp means well, I probably shouldn't have said anything. These situations are just so hard, because short of a time machine to go back and make different decisions in regards to training, the options on the table are not super great for anyone. It's funny that there are thousands of owners with thousands of dogs out there with nothing more than basic training and have never had to worry about a mauling. We have a reformed hooligan too, and sometimes I wonder what he would be like if he had been with anyone else. We definitely got hit with a major learning curve training him. I think most people expect that they need to teach their dog to sit and come when called and those basics... and then when something happens like a nip it's just "dogs will be dogs!" and not much gets made of it until it's too late, which is especially damaging with big dogs because they can be so lethal. I think until the common pool of knowledge about dogs and dog behavior expands, things like this are going to continue to happen
Post by wrathofkuus on Jul 29, 2014 13:22:09 GMT -5
I'm confused. You're considering putting down a healthy dog instead of giving him to a shelter because the shelter might put him down? This makes not one lick of sense.
I'm confused. You're considering putting down a healthy dog instead of giving him to a shelter because the shelter might put him down? This makes not one lick of sense.
You don't see the difference between owners being with their pet when he is put down and leaving him in a shelter, scared and surrounded by strangers in his last moments?
I'm confused. You're considering putting down a healthy dog instead of giving him to a shelter because the shelter might put him down? This makes not one lick of sense.
A shelter, unlike an appropriate rescue, is almost guaranteed to put Tucker to sleep. There is no "might" about it. So if euthanasia is decided to be the only option for a dog, it is often more humane to do so with the comfort of family and a familiar vet rather than leave them alone and scared with strangers in an unfamiliar place.
I'm confused. You're considering putting down a healthy dog instead of giving him to a shelter because the shelter might put him down? This makes not one lick of sense.
I kind of understand it in terms that you know the dog will go as peacefully as possible and will be surrounded by love if she were to take it to her vet to have it done. At animal control sometimes the method used to euthanize an animal is cruel. It all depends on the shelter and what they use.
While I get that Mekia doesn't want the dog in the house, the fact that the possession aggression had been seen and never addressed and has escalated to this point is very upsetting to me. It may likely be that this young healthy dog will be put down because of it. I am also WTFing the MIL who lets the dog run around outside knowing that dog has possession aggression.
And yes, there are hunting breeds/lines that are better as family pets. There are some lines that do better only as working dogs. My aunt breeds dogs that are a hunting breed and is very up front that the pups from one of her bitches make better family dogs that hunt and the pups from her other bitch, for whatever reason, aren't great family pets - they are all business with very very high prey drives. They aren't fond of kids or snuggling or fetch or any of the usual family dog stuff. Why this is the case? I don't know but that is just the way it is. And there are people who want dogs like that (and they tend to do very well in hunting trials too).
I have a pointer mix that is all about prey drive even at almost 5. If she could kill a critter every day, it would make her the happiest dog in the world. I am sure if we were hunters, we could train her to quietly point out a bird or whatever, but we don't hunt so it isn't high on our priority list. So instead we work with her on training and use NILF to make sure that prey drive doesn't become an issue.
I have only skimmed the responses, so apologies for repetition.
1. I definitely recommend looking at a local rescue and be completely upfront about Tucker's problems. I wouldn't describe him as "aggressive" or "threat" to the rescue. Just tell them what happened and they can figure out if it's an aggression issue or a treatable behavior condition.
2. I've emailed a local foster group describing your situation. I'll get back if they have any advice.
3. I have a lovely friend who has a lovely GSD called Titan. He was completely "untrainable" and "aggressive" and was an owner surrender. She rescued him, fostered him, behavior trained him and I'm telling you, I've never seen a happier dog in my life. In the end, she decided to adopt him too and he now lives with her other GSD and Dobie. He also has a pet cat that he is in love with now. (This is what I mean by not armchair diagnosing your dog especially while rehoming. Only a behavior specialist can do that.) There might be hope for Tucker. Check every avenue available to you. I know that my friend would help you in a heartbeat but unfortunately she lives in canada land. So, I'm going to mail my friend too to ask if she knows anyone in your state. MN, right?
Yes I'm in MN. An hour from canada actually
She is in Ontario. She also says she can see if her rescue will take Tucker. Is it too far to drive?
I'm confused. You're considering putting down a healthy dog instead of giving him to a shelter because the shelter might put him down? This makes not one lick of sense.
You don't see the difference between owners being with their pet when he is put down and leaving him in a shelter, scared and surrounded by strangers in his last moments?
The owners who didn't ever bother training him, gave him away after the first aggression, and then would pit him down rather than jump in a damn car and drive some hours to an appropriate rescue? No, I don't see how that would be more comforting than people who work at the shelter specifically to give care and love to animals who don't have anywhere else to go.
So he has resource guarding aggression. Knowing this, indo believe that work with a good behaviorist would provide a really great shot at rehabbing him.
Our doggy daycare does a "boot camp" for dogs with issues in which they stay for two weeks and work intensely with a certified behaviorist. Maybe look I to something like this in your area? I am not saying that you would ultimately keep Tucker, but putting him through a program and receiving their feedback could create a situation where he could be adopted out.
We know people who use labs as their "hog dogs", if/when the hog isn't brought down with the gun shot, then the dogs will bring it down. These dogs are not family pets, they are working dogs.
Sounds like Tucker would be good for something like this...
(and I don't like hog hunting, but it has to be done or the damn wild hogs would take over the joint) they're nasty, dirty, mean mother fuckers.
You don't see the difference between owners being with their pet when he is put down and leaving him in a shelter, scared and surrounded by strangers in his last moments?
The owners who didn't ever bother training him, gave him away after the first aggression, and then would pit him down rather than jump in a damn car and drive some hours to an appropriate rescue? No, I don't see how that would be more comforting than people who work at the shelter specifically to give care and love to animals who don't have anywhere else to go.
I 10000% disagree with this. Unless the shelter is dedicated to rehabbing the dog, just turning a dog over to a shelter to be put down is cruel. If the dog is going to be put to sleep due to aggression issues, it is ALWAYS better for the dog to be with the people he loves when it happens, instead of dumped at a shelter, scared and alone, just to be out down. Fuck that.
The Midwest is full of hunting dogs (whether they are from a breeder or not). The majority of them are also amazing family dogs and just because they have been trained to work doesn't mean they have some sort of prey drive.
When we adopted our dog (lab mix) there was also a litter of shepherd/collie mixes. The rescue warned us that the shepherd mixes have the prey drive, not the labs.
High prey drive also doesn't mean the dog will necessarily attack humans (adults or children). My fawn boy has an extremely high prey drive but can differentiate between animals (food) and people (friends). He'll happily let my nephews climb all over him and pull his ears. But Lord help me when the neighbors cat is in their backyard. Full on hunting mode.
You don't see the difference between owners being with their pet when he is put down and leaving him in a shelter, scared and surrounded by strangers in his last moments?
The owners who didn't ever bother training him, gave him away after the first aggression, and then would pit him down rather than jump in a damn car and drive some hours to an appropriate rescue? No, I don't see how that would be more comforting than people who work at the shelter specifically to give care and love to animals who don't have anywhere else to go.
All of the bolded is false. Just stop. I'm not sure what your point even is.
Wait, he came from a breeder? I've never seen a breeder contract that allows for re-homing. Why wasn't he sent back to the breeder? Mekia, I'm sorry you're in this position.
I have no idea? I don't remember us signing anything. I'll check with the breeder, but I know they've moved since we got Tucker. Let me ask H.
That's what I was getting at. It sounds like you got him from a good breeder. I would be SHOCKED if they won't help you help Tucker.
The owners who didn't ever bother training him, gave him away after the first aggression, and then would pit him down rather than jump in a damn car and drive some hours to an appropriate rescue? No, I don't see how that would be more comforting than people who work at the shelter specifically to give care and love to animals who don't have anywhere else to go.
wrathofkuus - you should probably re-read this post from the beginning and also her original post - I think you are making rash judgements and are sounding like an asshole because of it.
Ohshit. It's bunny against bunny now.
Mekia, I hope that you all find the best solution for Tucker. Good luck.
The owners who didn't ever bother training him, gave him away after the first aggression, and then would pit him down rather than jump in a damn car and drive some hours to an appropriate rescue? No, I don't see how that would be more comforting than people who work at the shelter specifically to give care and love to animals who don't have anywhere else to go.
wrathofkuus - you should probably re-read this post from the beginning and also her original post - I think you are making rash judgements and are sounding like an asshole because of it.
I sent an email to several places including different vets, humane society, shelters, and the best friends place in Utah explaining our situation and asking for suggestions.
Trying to find the info on the breeder and we will call them too.
I miss him so much and want him back, but I can't.
And I agree, looking back now I recognize the warning signs of possessiveness in Tucker. I feel awful that it wasn't addressed earlier. A lot of it we thought was just him being a silly puppy. We should have handled that better and nipped it in the bud.
Please don't beat yourself up. As pet owners, we all learn from our mistakes. I've definitely made some myself. You move forward, you learn, and you vow not to repeat the same mistakes.
It speaks volumes that you are working so hard to find the right home for Tucker. Sometimes the best thing we can do for our pets is admit that we aren't the right owners.
Post by RoxMonster on Jul 29, 2014 14:33:16 GMT -5
Good luck, mekia! I hope some of the places you e-mailed get back to with a solution.
It sounds like you would be interested in getting a dog in the future. I think that would be a great idea, especially if you miss having him around. Maybe wait a bit and research which dogs would be best with kids, etc. Now that you know the signs of possessiveness, I have no doubt you will see them next time and intervene right away (if it happens with a different dog). Many dogs are GREAT with kids, so if you love dogs, don't let this scare you off from all dogs, though I understand it being a horribly terrifying incident.
I think you are handling a really tough situation very well and with a lot of grace. I hope you can find a solution for Tucker.
I didn't read 2-5 but I would wager that Tucker would do well with a couple with no kids or with just a male or female. I would guess, even more, that he would do great with someone who will take him duck hunting like your H did.
I wonder if being trained to hunt was part of the problem. Not in a way that you did anything wrong, but some dogs that are trained to hunt can get quite possessive and then add a new baby into the mix and things can go south pretty quick. That isn't your fault, all dogs are different and sometimes things just happen.
Your H, and you, are going to have to come around to the idea of some random person having him but if you work with a shelter or group who screens/checks folks out, it might put your mind at ease.
I'm sorry you are facing this but there are options!
I sent an email to several places including different vets, humane society, shelters, and the best friends place in Utah explaining our situation and asking for suggestions.
Trying to find the info on the breeder and we will call them too.
I miss him so much and want him back, but I can't.
And I agree, looking back now I recognize the warning signs of possessiveness in Tucker. I feel awful that it wasn't addressed earlier. A lot of it we thought was just him being a silly puppy. We should have handled that better and nipped it in the bud.
Please don't beat yourself up. As pet owners, we all learn from our mistakes. I've definitely made some myself. You move forward, you learn, and you vow not to repeat the same mistakes.
It speaks volumes that you are working so hard to find the right home for Tucker. Sometimes the best thing we can do for our pets is admit that we aren't the right owners.
Agree 100%. Re homing makes me rage about 90% of the time - this is not one of those times. Tucker is lucky he has someone willing to really try to find the best place for him, instead of just dumping him.