There is no other side to the story? If the police's account is true (and I'm not saying it is because it sounds implausible to me) wouldn't that make him not an innocent victim?
ttt - When you say "not an innocent victim" you mean Brown was a victim, but not innocent if the police were right that a struggle happened. But the account that the Chief recounted was that there was a struggle in the car and Brown reached for the gun, but then the officer followed Brown as he left and still had his own gun and shot Brown multiple times - 30+ feet away from the car the officer shot an unarmed teen who was running from custody.
So saying "unarmed black man" was fine, but "innocent" was not... aren't all those picked up by the police innocent until proven guilty? Plus he was a young teen who might have been in trouble for taking candy... that sounds pretty innocent to me - stealing candy vs. a car or gun or killing someone is pretty damn innocent, no?
I'm saying that *if* he had assaulted a police officer and *if* the shooting was justified, then he wasn't an innocent victim.
Presumed innocence is a legal concept - i mean, the Sandy Hook shooter was never tried and convicted but that doesn't make him innocent.
And again, I'm not saying that this shooting was justified in the least. I don't know. You don't know. The fact that he was 35 yards away looks bad. But how far away was the cop? Was he shot from 35 yards? I am waiting until more facts come out before coming down either way.
I see police officers like I see teachers. Do we want creative, independent thinking, well qualified professionals? If so, we have to be willing to pay them. Sadly, right now, it doesn't seem like we're willing to. But, that doesn't mean that sentiment couldn't be changed.
Thee's this quote from a famous criminal justice professor (paraphrased): I can teach anyone to shoot a gun in 10 minutes. I need several years to help most officers understand when to keep it in their holsters.
That kind of reason and judgment seems way too hard to ingrain in someone in a 12 week academy session.
Yes this is partially true. But I think the continued refusal to understand or address the systemic racism ingrained in the criminal justice system is what allowed these things to continue. It's pervasive, so much so that even police officers of color have trouble keeping an open mind.
It's actually a pretty vicious cycle, imo. I don't believe that the vast majority of cops actively seek out that mindset. I just think it becomes enforced by their daily encounters. And I think the attitude towards police officers continues because of that. A police officer goes in putting everyone on equal footing but then they deal with neighborhoods where the vast number of their calls involve some type of stereotype. People go in the same way, trying to keep an open mind about police officers but then have many of their encounters involve attitudes from police officers.
And then in a lot of places, the PD is in effect useless. In Savannah, we are having a serious problem with our police department and with crime in general. We had something like 20 shootings in three weeks. The mayor (a black woman) went on TV numerous times and basically said if we wanted the cops to solve and prevent these crimes, we needed to act better. I mean really? Nevermind that the last police chief was recently convicted of bribery, extortion, and basically overlooking a huge ass gambling ring's activities in exchange for a cut of the profits.
ttt - When you say "not an innocent victim" you mean Brown was a victim, but not innocent if the police were right that a struggle happened. But the account that the Chief recounted was that there was a struggle in the car and Brown reached for the gun, but then the officer followed Brown as he left and still had his own gun and shot Brown multiple times - 30+ feet away from the car the officer shot an unarmed teen who was running from custody.
So saying "unarmed black man" was fine, but "innocent" was not... aren't all those picked up by the police innocent until proven guilty? Plus he was a young teen who might have been in trouble for taking candy... that sounds pretty innocent to me - stealing candy vs. a car or gun or killing someone is pretty damn innocent, no?
I'm saying that *if* he had assaulted a police officer and *if* the shooting was justified, then he wasn't an innocent victim.
Presumed innocence is a legal concept - i mean, the Sandy Hook shooter was never tried and convicted but that doesn't make him innocent.
And again, I'm not saying that this shooting was justified in the least. I don't know. You don't know. The fact that he was 35 yards away looks bad. But how far away was the cop? Was he shot from 35 yards? I am waiting until more facts come out before coming down either way.
You go ahead and wait for those facts. I prefer to start out angry!! YOU KNOW ME.
I see police officers like I see teachers. Do we want creative, independent thinking, well qualified professionals? If so, we have to be willing to pay them. Sadly, right now, it doesn't seem like we're willing to. But, that doesn't mean that sentiment couldn't be changed.
Thee's this quote from a famous criminal justice professor (paraphrased): I can teach anyone to shoot a gun in 10 minutes. I need several years to help most officers understand when to keep it in their holsters.
That kind of reason and judgment seems way too hard to ingrain in someone in a 12 week academy session.
Nope - I can't see police officers like teachers. Maybe I'm jaded, but why do you want a creative police officer - that is the opposite of current ideology - most places want officers to follow the rules by the book and don't interpret the law in the field. And if you want someone who is qualified, non-racist, and professional, that works as a requirement in almost ANY profession. Plus, the median salary is not terrible IMO - it's pretty reasonable based on the average salary of a Police Officer in US = $56,980 and the education minimum is a GED or high school diploma. Oh and by comparison, the average salary of a high school teacher in US = $55,050 and the education minimum is bachelors and teaching certificate.
We don't pay officers more if they learn more, it's because they could be in hazardous situations and it's their job to know how to bring someone in for the justice system to deal with. I don't think raising pay or making people get a BA for a career where they don't need one is the answer. I'm not sure what the answer is, but being NOT racist or a power-loving a-hole seems like an easy place to start.
I get the outrage. until the justice system works for all I have a hard time getting angry at people who are fed up with waiting.
I understand the anger but looting Quiktrip isn't going to make juries less racist and less inclined to view young black men and dangerous.
I don't know what the answer is. Maybe there is none and it's just a matter of time before the nation descends into either a police state or civil war.
Hell, black men in elevators in suits are considered dangerous. I am late and haven't read all the threads, but a quick trip down history lane shows that riots aren't exactly an uncommon phenomenon when injustice is perceived. Watts, L.A., Chicago all in recent history have happened. Not saying that it's not right, but what do you want when people are fed the fuck up?
And so, do black people always need to remain docile to quell the false images of themselves splashed across the media? I say we shouldn't. I'm tired of hearing about black folk getting choked the fuck out by police. Being black ain't a fucking crime.
I see police officers like I see teachers. Do we want creative, independent thinking, well qualified professionals? If so, we have to be willing to pay them. Sadly, right now, it doesn't seem like we're willing to. But, that doesn't mean that sentiment couldn't be changed.
Thee's this quote from a famous criminal justice professor (paraphrased): I can teach anyone to shoot a gun in 10 minutes. I need several years to help most officers understand when to keep it in their holsters.
That kind of reason and judgment seems way too hard to ingrain in someone in a 12 week academy session.
Nope - I can't see police officers like teachers. Maybe I'm jaded, but why do you want a creative police officer - that is the opposite of current ideology - most places want officers to follow the rules by the book and don't interpret the law in the field. And if you want someone who is qualified, non-racist, and professional, that works as a requirement in almost ANY profession. Plus, the median salary is not terrible IMO - it's pretty reasonable based on the average salary of a Police Officer in US = $56,980 and the education minimum is a GED or high school diploma. Oh and by comparison, the average salary of a high school teacher in US = $55,050 and the education minimum is bachelors and teaching certificate.
We don't pay officers more if they learn more, it's because they could be in hazardous situations and it's their job to know how to bring someone in for the justice system to deal with. I don't think raising pay or making people get a BA for a career where they don't need one is the answer. I'm not sure what the answer is, but being NOT racist or a power-loving a-hole seems like an easy place to start.
YES.
Sadly, though, the LEOs here don't make that (I realize you're doing the median, though.)
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
Post by BeagleMama on Aug 11, 2014 16:15:36 GMT -5
If you haven't seen his feed yet, a local councilman is posting really good, neutral observation videos and pics from Ferguson: www.twitter.com/AntonioFrench
If you haven't seen his feed yet, a local councilman is posting really good, neutral observation videos and pics from Ferguson: www.twitter.com/AntonioFrench
Lovely. Full riot gear and tanks against people protesting.
Post by Velar Fricative on Aug 11, 2014 16:42:26 GMT -5
I can't be angry about cameras either. That's how we know what happened to Eric Garner here recently. Who knows how his death would have been swept under the rug if not for the video of him yelling that he can't breathe?
I'm still having a hard time understanding the sequence of events here and I want to wait on the facts but all I could think is how awful it is that this keeps happening.
But we have a black President!!1!!!1! Post-racial society, yo.
I see police officers like I see teachers. Do we want creative, independent thinking, well qualified professionals? If so, we have to be willing to pay them. Sadly, right now, it doesn't seem like we're willing to. But, that doesn't mean that sentiment couldn't be changed.
Thee's this quote from a famous criminal justice professor (paraphrased): I can teach anyone to shoot a gun in 10 minutes. I need several years to help most officers understand when to keep it in their holsters.
That kind of reason and judgment seems way too hard to ingrain in someone in a 12 week academy session.
Yes this is partially true. But I think the continued refusal to understand or address the systemic racism ingrained in the criminal justice system is what allowed these things to continue. It's pervasive, so much so that even police officers of color have trouble keeping an open mind.
It's actually a pretty vicious cycle, imo. I don't believe that the vast majority of cops actively seek out that mindset. I just think it becomes enforced by their daily encounters. And I think the attitude towards police officers continues because of that. A police officer goes in putting everyone on equal footing but then they deal with neighborhoods where the vast number of their calls involve some type of stereotype. People go in the same way, trying to keep an open mind about police officers but then have many of their encounters involve attitudes from police officers.
And then in a lot of places, the PD is in effect useless. In Savannah, we are having a serious problem with our police department and with crime in general. We had something like 20 shootings in three weeks. The mayor (a black woman) went on TV numerous times and basically said if we wanted the cops to solve and prevent these crimes, we needed to act better. I mean really? Nevermind that the last police chief was recently convicted of bribery, extortion, and basically overlooking a huge ass gambling ring's activities in exchange for a cut of the profits.
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
Raw footage of an interview with the friend. You can stop at 2:30 if you don't want to see raw footage of Mike's mother being told by police her son is dead.
...But I think the continued refusal to understand or address the systemic racism ingrained in the criminal justice system is what allowed these things to continue. It's pervasive, so much so that even police officers of color have trouble keeping an open mind.
It's actually a pretty vicious cycle, imo. I don't believe that the vast majority of cops actively seek out that mindset. I just think it becomes enforced by their daily encounters. And I think the attitude towards police officers continues because of that. A police officer goes in putting everyone on equal footing but then they deal with neighborhoods where the vast number of their calls involve some type of stereotype. People go in the same way, trying to keep an open mind about police officers but then have many of their encounters involve attitudes from police officers...
I think these are very good points. Even if we start with open minds ourselves, it's pretty hard not to be aware of societal stereotypes, and we're wired to notice and remember things that reinforce those stereotypes. So, the cycles just get worse and worse, even for good people trying to do the right thing.
...But I think the continued refusal to understand or address the systemic racism ingrained in the criminal justice system is what allowed these things to continue. It's pervasive, so much so that even police officers of color have trouble keeping an open mind.
It's actually a pretty vicious cycle, imo. I don't believe that the vast majority of cops actively seek out that mindset. I just think it becomes enforced by their daily encounters. And I think the attitude towards police officers continues because of that. A police officer goes in putting everyone on equal footing but then they deal with neighborhoods where the vast number of their calls involve some type of stereotype. People go in the same way, trying to keep an open mind about police officers but then have many of their encounters involve attitudes from police officers...
I think these are very good points. Even if we start with open minds ourselves, it's pretty hard not to be aware of societal stereotypes, and we're wired to notice and remember things that reinforce those stereotypes. So, the cycles just get worse and worse, even for good people trying to do the right thing.
And not just this, but police officers tend to deal with some of the worst examples of any group of people, they tend to interact with people at their worst, and they see some of the worst things that humans do to each other. Every. Single. Day. So it's not surprising that even the most open minded people would end up hardened and falling into stereotyping people.
I think these are very good points. Even if we start with open minds ourselves, it's pretty hard not to be aware of societal stereotypes, and we're wired to notice and remember things that reinforce those stereotypes. So, the cycles just get worse and worse, even for good people trying to do the right thing.
And not just this, but police officers tend to deal with some of the worst examples of any group of people, they tend to interact with people at their worst, and they see some of the worst things that humans do to each other. Every. Single. Day. So it's not surprising that even the most open minded people would end up hardened and falling into stereotyping people.
I get it, but people who grow up in bad neighborhoods and grow hardened don't get a break when they commit a crime. Just the opposite. So if we seriously start to rationalize this I may start throwing shit. I still love you though.
I think these are very good points. Even if we start with open minds ourselves, it's pretty hard not to be aware of societal stereotypes, and we're wired to notice and remember things that reinforce those stereotypes. So, the cycles just get worse and worse, even for good people trying to do the right thing.
And not just this, but police officers tend to deal with some of the worst examples of any group of people, they tend to interact with people at their worst, and they see some of the worst things that humans do to each other. Every. Single. Day. So it's not surprising that even the most open minded people would end up hardened and falling into stereotyping people.
I agree, but at this point, you need to leave. I don't want you on the force (Not) protecting me and mine anymore. You need to retire your ass on out. Not kill my son because he looks like someone you saw do something 3 years ago.
And not just this, but police officers tend to deal with some of the worst examples of any group of people, they tend to interact with people at their worst, and they see some of the worst things that humans do to each other. Every. Single. Day. So it's not surprising that even the most open minded people would end up hardened and falling into stereotyping people.
I get it, but people who grow up in bad neighborhoods and grow hardened don't get a break when they commit a crime. Just the opposite. So if we seriously start to rationalize this I may start throwing shit. I still love you though.
Oh, gosh - I hope my post didn't come across as rationalizing police bullying and worse (though I could see how it might have). My mind was more along the lines of trying to understand some of the contributing factors to why it happens so we can develop means to prevent it.
I think it's really horrific that we live in a society where young non-white men have to be taught to be extra careful around police to avoid antagonizing them. It's a huge element of my white privilege that I can do my own thing around police officers while dressed however I want and not be worrying that they're watching me. Everyone should have that right.
And not just this, but police officers tend to deal with some of the worst examples of any group of people, they tend to interact with people at their worst, and they see some of the worst things that humans do to each other. Every. Single. Day. So it's not surprising that even the most open minded people would end up hardened and falling into stereotyping people.
I get it, but people who grow up in bad neighborhoods and grow hardened don't get a break when they commit a crime. Just the opposite. So if we seriously start to rationalize this I may start throwing shit. I still love you though.
No not rationalizing at all. Police officers must be held to high standards and be accountable for their actions. Just explaining why it's a complex issue that goes beyond "well cops should just not be racist."
It's not easy to say, hey just get out when you feel that way. Too many of them do and at such an early place in their career and often without realizing it. We really have to work on acknowledgement and training and not just expect human nature to be less human.
I get it, but people who grow up in bad neighborhoods and grow hardened don't get a break when they commit a crime. Just the opposite. So if we seriously start to rationalize this I may start throwing shit. I still love you though.
No not rationalizing at all. Police officers must be held to high standards and be accountable for their actions. Just explaining why it's a complex issue that goes beyond "well cops should just not be racist."
I was trying to respond to that, but couldn't find the right words. These are the right words. I want police held to a high standards.
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
1. Dash cams should be mandatory 2. Why not mandatory, tamper proof lapel cameras, too? (Or at the very least, mics). 3. The police unions would never let the above happen.
My heart hurts, we live about 10 miles south of the area. I hope the FBI is able to shed more light on the details. But unless video or audio is uncovered somehow, I'm not sure the findings will be satisfactory or conclusive one way or the other.
Plus, I seriously doubt most of these guys, even the ones who do this stuff wake up and say to themselves, Imma shoot me a black man today. I think it's yet another example of how systemic and ingrained racism is. From what I've seen, most people genuinely do not realize that they hold racial stereotypes and they certainly don't view themselves as racist.
When people think of racism, they think of white hoods, fiery crosses, and the confederate flag. Until we come to realize that racism is far more than that and that you can be a good person and still be afflicted with racial stereotypes, we aren't going to get anywhere.