Kids and biting

[DotAndBuzz]

I feel like I'm failing here.  N was SO easy to figure out discipline wise.  a 2-3 minute time-out crushed her.  Ended her world.  After a few follow-throughs with time-outs for hitting/big no-no's, even the mention of time out was enough to straighten her out.  It never even occurred to her to get up out of time out.

E, however, is a different story.  She has started biting her sister.  Like, broke the skin through N's shirt.  If she doesn't like what N is doing/can't call the shots, she bites.  She did it today in the grocery store line because N was talking to me, and E wanted it quiet.  WTH?!  She gives NO fucks about time out.  None.  She just gets up screaming at me and walks away.  I've tried to go all Super Nanny, and put her back over and over and over (like pushing a half hour of this), but it doesn't work.  Trust.  She will NOT sit there, and I don't want to physically hold her down.  Putting her in her room doesn't work because she actually will kick the door an walls until I go in there.  She dented her wall, and as her door isn't solid wood, I know it's just a matter of time for her to hurt herself on that if I let that continue.

I am done.  Out of ideas.  If I take away sweet treats (something she LOVES), she'll say, brightly, "oh!  Ok!  I didn't want those anyways," even when she sees N eating a giant ice cream cone or something.  Taking away TV or pool time won't work because then N is punished too (child care isn't open in the afternoon when we usually go to the pool, so I can't drop her there and take N alone).  It doesn't happen every day, so I'm not sure a reward system for bite-free days would work.  Maybe?  She'll go for a few days of being a complete angel, then BOOM.  Demon spawn for like 2 days.   She even KNOWS that she's misbehaving, because she'll hit or bite or something, then immediately say "I'm sorry for hitting," and expect everything to be all good, because she apologized.  um, no.

I know this is part of the wonderful world of 3 year olds, but OMFG.  Someone please give me ideas on how to discipline this child.  Or tell me about a boarding school program that takes 3 year olds.  Kidding....maybe.

[isabel]

I think I would stick with taking away fun things, a la @cse1960.

Sorry, E, girls who bite don't get dessert.

So what if she says she didn't want it anyway? After a week of no treats, she may change her tune. Desserts would be my focus because it seems like taking away activities would be punishment for you and N, too.

Eta: things like bedtime stories are pretty easy to take away, I would think. Maybe you can incorporate a few things into the punishment to show her how extreme the consequence is (I.e. No dessert, no stories, no evening tv show?)

[papie]

Sophia is very similar. I am hoping it will get better now that she turned 4. She doesn't bite but hits with toys or whatever she is holding. Taking fabourite toys away works sometimes. No TV too. Our TV is in the basement so Anna can go watch while Sophia stays up. Do you have a TV where N could go alone?
It doesn't always work but every thing will work for a little but until she decides she gives no fucks.

[DotAndBuzz]

Aug 27, 2014 13:45:07 GMT -5 isabel said:

I think I would stick with taking away fun things, a la @cse1960.

Sorry, E, girls who bite don't get dessert.

So what if she says she didn't want it anyway? After a week of no treats, she may change her tune. Desserts would be my focus because it seems like taking away activities would be punishment for you and N, too.

Eta: things like bedtime stories are pretty easy to take away, I would think. Maybe you can incorporate a few things into the punishment to show her how extreme the consequence is (I.e. No dessert, no stories, no evening tv show?)

I've done it for 2 days at a time before.  I hesitate to go for much longer because I'm not sure she'll get why the punishment is being extended.  Even if I say something like "no sweets because you used your teeth for biting," will she still be able to associate the punishment 5 days later with the cause?  And, I mean, she's 3.  Impulse control isn't so great at that age.  Chances are she'd have another incident (hitting, pushing, something time-out worthy) in that time frame anyways, so it would be a constant state of "punishment," with no improvement.  Right?  Genuinely asking, here. 

[papie]

Aug 27, 2014 14:02:48 GMT -5 DotAndBuzz said:

Aug 27, 2014 13:45:07 GMT -5 isabel said:

I think I would stick with taking away fun things, a la @cse1960.

Sorry, E, girls who bite don't get dessert.

So what if she says she didn't want it anyway? After a week of no treats, she may change her tune. Desserts would be my focus because it seems like taking away activities would be punishment for you and N, too.

Eta: things like bedtime stories are pretty easy to take away, I would think. Maybe you can incorporate a few things into the punishment to show her how extreme the consequence is (I.e. No dessert, no stories, no evening tv show?)

I've done it for 2 days at a time before.  I hesitate to go for much longer because I'm not sure she'll get why the punishment is being extended.  Even if I say something like "no sweets because you used your teeth for biting," will she still be able to associate the punishment 5 days later with the cause?  And, I mean, she's 3.  Impulse control isn't so great at that age.  Chances are she'd have another incident (hitting, pushing, something time-out worthy) in that time frame anyways, so it would be a constant state of "punishment," with no improvement.  Right?  Genuinely asking, here. 

Yes I don't do extended punishments for those reasons, especially the fact that you won't have a ready consequence for the next time.
We apply immediate consequences and then reinforce why she got the consequence, along with "if you act nicely until then, you will get TV tomorrow". It is a motivator.

[DotAndBuzz]

ugh, and she KNOWS I'm pist, because she just brought me a giant lego creation to help me "feel happy, and not use a sassy voice."

You see? She turns it around on ME! And MY sassy voice (which is what she calls it when I speak sternly to her). When she is a teenager I am completely fucked. 

[papie]

Yep we have the same daughter. Sophia is such an actress about it. "I am so so sorry mother! That was terrible. ....Are you happy now mommy? Do you love me now?"

[DotAndBuzz]

Aug 27, 2014 14:06:58 GMT -5 @astrid said:

Is she getting enough physical energy release time?

I thought so.  This happened first thing in the morning at the grocery store, so it isn't like we'd been running around and playing, but we don't do much tv, and since it's summer we are outside a lot.  Not at this moment, because I've hit my wall and need to decompress a bit , but they're now playing nicely in the basement, and sprinkler time is up next.

I'm hoping school will help get things back in line.  Like, really really really hoping.

[isabel]

Aug 27, 2014 14:02:48 GMT -5 DotAndBuzz said:

Aug 27, 2014 13:45:07 GMT -5 isabel said:

I think I would stick with taking away fun things, a la @cse1960.

Sorry, E, girls who bite don't get dessert.

So what if she says she didn't want it anyway? After a week of no treats, she may change her tune. Desserts would be my focus because it seems like taking away activities would be punishment for you and N, too.

Eta: things like bedtime stories are pretty easy to take away, I would think. Maybe you can incorporate a few things into the punishment to show her how extreme the consequence is (I.e. No dessert, no stories, no evening tv show?)

I've done it for 2 days at a time before.  I hesitate to go for much longer because I'm not sure she'll get why the punishment is being extended.  Even if I say something like "no sweets because you used your teeth for biting," will she still be able to associate the punishment 5 days later with the cause?  And, I mean, she's 3.  Impulse control isn't so great at that age.  Chances are she'd have another incident (hitting, pushing, something time-out worthy) in that time frame anyways, so it would be a constant state of "punishment," with no improvement.  Right?  Genuinely asking, here. 

Oh, yeah I wouldn't do that. I figured she was biting often enough that it would be an extended thing just because she keeps doing it. But if it's pretty intermittent, I don't think that would work.

Maybe a reward system, but that seems like the same problem in the opposite way. Like is she really going to associate the reward chart with not biting if she just happens not to do so for a few days?

I don't know. I'm sure I'll be in here with the same problem in a few years. Good luck!

[wino]

We've had major issues with DD. She can be the sweetest kid and turn into Satan in less than 5 seconds. I love her, but it's draining. She started this behavior at about 2 and she will be 6 on Monday. It's getting much better, but she still has issues.

She responds differently to me than to others. For instance time out at DC works wonders, but not at home. I stick to immediate consequences. When she was younger it was taking the toy she loved away and letting her earn it back for good behavior. She was put in her room, but I also had the fear she would injure herself. Lately it's been going to bed early because it kills her that DS gets to be up longer than she is.

I've found that I have to take each situation differently. One day something will work and the next that idea has no affect on her. I've found a lot of times she's angry or sad about something totally different than what she acted out for. I typically have to sit with her in order to get to the root of the problem and help her verbalize it. I started that around 3-3.5 years old. It has helped us a lot. It wasn't something I ever thought doing because I never thought talking about the issue was a way to fix it, but it has helped us a ton. I'm not sure it would work for every kid, but it is possible. DD didn't act out daily either. She would go long spans of being great and just all of a sudden flip the switch. That's how I started determining that there was a lead up to the action. Talking with her also has helped me realize it's coming and intervening prior to it becoming WW3.

[readyin07]

I feel you! My son is 3 next week and we are having the same sibling problems. The 2nd time he left a bruise from it WTF. I have no ideas, but I do think some of it is second child angst. He was seriously the best baby but his toddler behavior is out of control. He does not like time out, will scream through them, but it does not stop the behavior. Taking away something, enh, he'll cry but it's meaningless. He will just find something else (my older son was like this too, not attached enough to anything to make it removing it a punishment). Kids.