You’re Rich for an American. Does that Make You Rich for NY?

[nessness]

Thought this might make for some interesting discussion here, given the number of times someone has claimed you need $200k+ just to "get by" in New York. Thoughts?

www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014/08/29/income_distribution_of_new_york_city_what_does_it_take_to_be_rich.html

New Yorkers have a notoriously skewed sense of wealth—at least when they work in industries like finance or media and live in Manhattan or Brooklyn. It’s hard not to, seeing how we’re surrounded by expensive restaurants, expensive apartments, and expensively dressed people who seem able to afford it all.

So, as an econ writer, it’s usually a somewhat strange experience when I get into conversations here about class. If I mention that a six-figure salary counts as rich in much of the country—that just $250,000 gets you into the top 2 percent—the response is usually, “Sure, but that’s not New York rich.”

Except, it sort of is. While working on my column today about what counts as rich in America, I pulled a bit of Census data to compare income New York City and the entire United States. The greater New York metro area may be home to an enormous share of the country’s 1 percenters, and it's certainly a magnet for exorbitant, plutocratic wealth. But in the city itself, the basic income curve isn’t that exceptional. In the entire U.S., according to the Census, about 22 percent of households earn six figures. In NYC, it’s about 25 percent.

What about cost of living? Don’t working professionals in New York—those of us who aren’t Wall Street plutocrats—have a right to feel a bit poorer because of the insane amount of money we pay to live in shoebox apartments? Real estate here is expensive, and we don’t get much square footage for our buck. But as I wrote yesterday, the high rents in this city are balanced out somewhat by the low, low cost of commuting on the subway. (Not paying for a car, or gas, or car insurance is pretty financially sweet.) Combined with the fact that salaries are somewhat higher than average here, and New York is reasonably affordable compared to other large cities. Of course, you can easily make it unaffordable by moving to that lovely tree-lined block in Brooklyn or Manhattan that’s just steps to the park, a great coffee shop, and a subway station. But those are consumption choices.

The upshot: If you’re rich by U.S. standards, you’re probably also rich by New York standards. Now, if you do want to see a city where incomes are crazily out of line with the national norm, check out San Francisco, where 39 percent of households make six figures—it really is becoming a city for the rich.

[v]

First impression: meh.

Also, the comparison to SF based percentage earning x is stupid. People feel like you need a lot of money to get buy in NY because it is so expensive, not because x percent earn a certain amount.

[teatimefor2]

I agree with V and I don't really view Slate as hard in depth reporting. It's possible, especially for a single person, but add in childcare and you have done of the highest costs in the country.

Honestly, I don't think it was a good article and I need more factual data from both sides of the issue.

[Deleted]

The numbers make sense when you consider that NYC is all five boroughs. If you break out the "desirable" parts of the city then you might get a different bell curve.

To me, it's about the trade-offs. I would never say I *couldn't* live in NYC for under $250k ... I'm just not sure I'd want to. The last time I was under consideration for a job in NY, the cost of living calculator said we'd need a salary of $575,000 to enjoy the same lifestyle in Manhattan.

New York is a wonderful playground if you're wealthy. If you're not, and especially if you have kids, you put up with a lot of indignities to live there.

[jsillyfun]

We used to make 100k and lived a perfectly nice lifestyle in a tree lined street in Brooklyn a few blocks from prospect park. But...that was 6 years ago and I'm sure prices have gone up some in that time and we also had a large one bedroom that was great for a couple but (as a railroad style) really wouldn't have worked with even one kid, let alone the two we wanted. And we didn't have to pay for daycare. But, I do think based on my own experience that 250k would give a nice middle class lifestyle for sure. You just wouldn't feel as rich as you would in other parts of the country.

[bronxgirl]

As someone raising a family in NYC making slightly under $100,000 I am rolling my eyes HARD at anyone who says you can't live on $250,000. And no I don't have to "put up with indignities", whatever that means.

[Deleted]

Aug 31, 2014 10:57:48 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

As someone raising a family in NYC making slightly under $100,000 I am rolling my eyes HARD at anyone who says you can't live on $250,000. And no I don't have to "put up with indignities", whatever that means.

C'mon. New Yorkers (and I'm a native) know the indignities well. Paying extra for a dishwasher. Not having your own washer/dryer. $400 for a parking space. Greyhound bus to leave the city without a car. Sharing walls. Outdoor space at a premium. The traffic. What 90 degree weather feels like on a subway platform. Need I go on?

[bronxgirl]

Aug 31, 2014 11:13:41 GMT -5 @linzercookie said:

Aug 31, 2014 10:57:48 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

As someone raising a family in NYC making slightly under $100,000 I am rolling my eyes HARD at anyone who says you can't live on $250,000. And no I don't have to "put up with indignities", whatever that means.

C'mon. New Yorkers (and I'm a native) know the indignities well. Paying extra for a dishwasher. Not having your own washer/dryer. $400 for a parking space. Greyhound bus to leave the city without a car. Sharing walls. Outdoor space at a premium. The traffic. What 90 degree weather feels like on a subway platform. Need I go on?

Those are indignities??? That's just life.

[kadams767]

Aug 31, 2014 11:13:41 GMT -5 @linzercookie said:

Aug 31, 2014 10:57:48 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

As someone raising a family in NYC making slightly under $100,000 I am rolling my eyes HARD at anyone who says you can't live on $250,000. And no I don't have to "put up with indignities", whatever that means.

C'mon. New Yorkers (and I'm a native) know the indignities well. Paying extra for a dishwasher. Not having your own washer/dryer. $400 for a parking space. Greyhound bus to leave the city without a car. Sharing walls. Outdoor space at a premium. The traffic. What 90 degree weather feels like on a subway platform. Need I go on?

LOLOLOLOLOL! I've never lived in NYC, and am actually a landlord in another city. Let me assure you that several apartments I've lived in, along with the units I rent out currently, had neither dishwasher or dedicated parking. And as they are, in fact, apartments, they all had :gasp: shared walls as well. I'm 33 and currently living in my first place with more than 4ft of my own outdoor space and my own washer and dryer. I had no idea I was suffering so much in life previously.

[Deleted]

Aug 31, 2014 11:13:41 GMT -5 @linzercookie said:

Aug 31, 2014 10:57:48 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

As someone raising a family in NYC making slightly under $100,000 I am rolling my eyes HARD at anyone who says you can't live on $250,000. And no I don't have to "put up with indignities", whatever that means.

C'mon. New Yorkers (and I'm a native) know the indignities well. Paying extra for a dishwasher. Not having your own washer/dryer. $400 for a parking space. Greyhound bus to leave the city without a car. Sharing walls. Outdoor space at a premium. The traffic. What 90 degree weather feels like on a subway platform. Need I go on?

I think you have different ideas of indignities and its definition.

People who like city living find those things normal and prefer them in many instances. 

I prefer washing dishes by hand, using public transport and not having to drive, not having any outdoor space/land and I've never had a problem sharing walls. 

Different strokes for different folks, so I don't think those are indignities. Why would I feel shame for those things?

[v]

I love having shared walls and no yard and not having to drive anywhere.

Paying $4.50 to do a load of laundry sucks, but meh.

[h]

I think not having a washer and dryer or dishwasher would be inconvenient at this stage of my life (i.e., with small kids). But I wouldn't consider it an indignity. And I can appreciate the fact that plenty of people are happy to trade minor inconveniences for the other advantages and conveniences of big city life. I, mean, I have a washer and dryer, two cars, and access to free parking most places I go, but my food delivery options are pretty much limited to pizza chains and my local cultural amenities and entertainment options are not exactly on par with NYC.

As to the article, I just don't feel like it says much. I think the bottom line is that there is very often a difference between being rich and feeling rich, as we have seen on this board a hundred times over.

[lasagnasshole]

Greyhound Bus to leave the city without a car?

I swear that I once heard about an invention called a train. Anybody know anything about these?

[Deleted]

Aug 31, 2014 12:06:16 GMT -5 lasagnasshole said:

Greyhound Bus to leave the city without a car?

I swear that I once heard about an invention called a train. Anybody know anything about these?

Lol. 

Also, I think the bus experience has gotten much better over the years with more competition. I've never had any major problems and my most recent trip to NYC on the bus was even more professional...leather seats, wifi, and on time. 

You really can't beat $10 to get to NYC from here! Unfortunately, the train is still a tad bit expensive for some shorter routes in my opinion. 

[livinitup]

I left a great neighborhood in NYC (Queens) for a mid-sized LCOL area. Sure, you can get a LOT out of city life, and the public education can be stellar - if you place. There is just SO MUCH wealth that is easily seen/accessible that it's easy to feel poor.

I used to do a summer share in the Hampton's every year. Folks around here don't even KNOW what a share is - and a great summer destination is a "camp" that may or may not have utilities.

I just never feel poor the way it's easy to feel poor in NYC.

[carfar]

Aug 31, 2014 11:15:36 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

Aug 31, 2014 11:13:41 GMT -5 @linzercookie said:

C'mon. New Yorkers (and I'm a native) know the indignities well. Paying extra for a dishwasher. Not having your own washer/dryer. $400 for a parking space. Greyhound bus to leave the city without a car. Sharing walls. Outdoor space at a premium. The traffic. What 90 degree weather feels like on a subway platform. Need I go on?

I truly hope this is tongue in cheek......

Granted these are "annoyances" I've lived with several of them in San Francisco, and we now live outside the city because we wanted parking, a yard, and to avoid some of the other "annoyances" of actual city dwelling...  but, seriously....  Everyone who has  a dishwasher  "pays extra" for it. either by buying it and or paying the water/electricity bill to run it, or by choosing a house or apartment that costs more because the kitchen is  fully equipped. Also, I know SF (and I'm willing to bet other large cities) can easily also cost that much to park. That is not an indignity, and certainly not special to NYC, just the cost of living in a large city. 

[LoveTrains]

Aug 31, 2014 12:06:16 GMT -5 lasagnasshole said:

Greyhound Bus to leave the city without a car?

I swear that I once heard about an invention called a train. Anybody know anything about these?

Not only that but you can actually go beyond Boston and DC on the train. You can go to Miami, Chicago, Atlanta and even New Orleans on a one seat ride on a train from NYP.

[lasagnasshole]

I've had a dishwasher in all three houses I've lived at in DC.

You know where I didn't have a dishwasher?

Indiana.

So I didn't have a dishwasher and I LIVED IN INDIANA.

Talk about indignities.

[v]

Aug 31, 2014 13:24:37 GMT -5 LoveTrains said:

Aug 31, 2014 12:06:16 GMT -5 lasagnasshole said:

Greyhound Bus to leave the city without a car?

I swear that I once heard about an invention called a train. Anybody know anything about these?

Not only that but you can actually go beyond Boston and DC on the train. You can go to Miami, Chicago, Atlanta and even New Orleans on a one seat ride on a train from NYP.

For Miami or New Orleans, most people are going to opt for planes over a 30 hour train ride that costs as much

Also, Amtrak is so expensive that if you're on a budget, bus is probably the better option for DC or Boston.

But any rate, there are lots of planes and trains and buses that leave from NY. Getting far away isn't an issue (though I would cry if I had to take the train rather than drive to my parents' house in NJ -- it is an hour to get there if I drive, but 2.5 hours if I take the train... I could fly to DC in that time!!!).

[wannabe]

Aug 31, 2014 11:13:41 GMT -5 @linzercookie said:

Aug 31, 2014 10:57:48 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

As someone raising a family in NYC making slightly under $100,000 I am rolling my eyes HARD at anyone who says you can't live on $250,000. And no I don't have to "put up with indignities", whatever that means.

C'mon. New Yorkers (and I'm a native) know the indignities well. Paying extra for a dishwasher. Not having your own washer/dryer. $400 for a parking space. Greyhound bus to leave the city without a car. Sharing walls. Outdoor space at a premium. The traffic. What 90 degree weather feels like on a subway platform. Need I go on?

Actually, yes - please do go on.

[ESF]

Aug 30, 2014 17:26:14 GMT -5 v said:

First impression: meh.

Also, the comparison to SF based percentage earning x is stupid. People feel like you need a lot of money to get buy in NY because it is so expensive, not because x percent earn a certain amount.

The comparison seems flimsy because it doesn't provide enough information. But I assure you that it is a tremendous problem.

There are huge problems caused by the fact that an increasingly high number of people in SF earn so much money. Because there is so many of them as compared to people earning less, they absolutely can and do impact how the rest if the city functions,

For example, because there's so many rich people in the city, they have tremendous ability to pour money into legislative initiatives to prevent new housing from being built (under the guise of environmentalism but it's really NIMBYism), which in turn drives the cost of housing up even higher, because there's not enough housing. That pushes more lower income voters out, and more higher earners in.

Likewise, the high paying jobs are effectively creating their own public transit systems, so the wealthy no longer feel the need to see their local taxes spent on regular public transit. As they increasingly form a larger voting block, the public transit is increasingly deteriorating. That makes it harder and harder for lower income people to afford the city, so they leave, and more rich people move in.

I could go on and on.

I am not trying to start a pissing match as to who has it worse. No doubt, there are negative side effects to extreme income inequality in a lot of urban areas. But I really, really take issue with your conclusion that an exceptionally abnormal rate of of high earners as irrelevant to the impact it has on a lower earner's ability to live in a city. It is a creating a MASSIVE problem in SF right now.

[ESF]

Aug 31, 2014 11:13:41 GMT -5 @linzercookie said:

Aug 31, 2014 10:57:48 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

As someone raising a family in NYC making slightly under $100,000 I am rolling my eyes HARD at anyone who says you can't live on $250,000. And no I don't have to "put up with indignities", whatever that means.

C'mon. New Yorkers (and I'm a native) know the indignities well. Paying extra for a dishwasher. Not having your own washer/dryer. $400 for a parking space. Greyhound bus to leave the city without a car. Sharing walls. Outdoor space at a premium. The traffic. What 90 degree weather feels like on a subway platform. Need I go on?

I am fucking dying at this.

I haven't lived in on the east coast in 6years, but yeah, I took the Greyhound from city to city for 10+ years of my life. It's a bus. Indigent?! Are you fucking kidding me? I'm sorry, but if you think that earning a certain income puts you above mass transit, I don't really know what to do with you.

Look, if you are living in NYC, and have a college degree and/or earning over some mid-5-figure salary, then you are living there BY CHOICE. You cannot fucking convince me that you are suffering there with your earning whatever high five or anywhere in the six- figure salary, because those so called "indignities" are choices you deal with for the other benefits of living in NYC-area, benefits that include good professional options (and in some cases, higher wages). If it's not worth it to you, move.

[bronxgirl]

Aug 31, 2014 21:29:19 GMT -5 ESF said:

Aug 30, 2014 17:26:14 GMT -5 v said:

First impression: meh.

Also, the comparison to SF based percentage earning x is stupid. People feel like you need a lot of money to get buy in NY because it is so expensive, not because x percent earn a certain amount.

I am not trying to start a pissing match as to who has it worse.

Well that's a good thing b/c it's already been laid out for you what we NY'ers have to put up with. Shared walls! Community laundry facilities! No guarantee of a dishwasher! 90 degree weather!  Traffic!   Surely no one outside of NY has to suffer these indignities.  Please pray for us. 

[niq]

Aug 31, 2014 11:13:41 GMT -5 @linzercookie said:

Aug 31, 2014 10:57:48 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

As someone raising a family in NYC making slightly under $100,000 I am rolling my eyes HARD at anyone who says you can't live on $250,000. And no I don't have to "put up with indignities", whatever that means.

C'mon. New Yorkers (and I'm a native) know the indignities well. Paying extra for a dishwasher. Not having your own washer/dryer. $400 for a parking space. Greyhound bus to leave the city without a car. Sharing walls. Outdoor space at a premium. The traffic. What 90 degree weather feels like on a subway platform. Need I go on?

Sure the price of some things in NYC is expensive, but  if I want to go to the MOMA, it's a $400 plane ticket and a three day trip. I can't just hop on Seattle's mass transit and see the Statue of Liberty. The Yankees play here three times a year. We get a handful of big-name broadway shows per year, and that's with the traveling cast. Etc etc...

[ESF]

Aug 31, 2014 23:47:34 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

Aug 31, 2014 21:29:19 GMT -5 ESF said:

I am not trying to start a pissing match as to who has it worse.

Well that's a good thing b/c it's already been laid out for you what we NY'ers have to put up with. Shared walls! Community laundry facilities! No guarantee of a dishwasher! 90 degree weather!  Traffic!   Surely no one outside of NY has to suffer these indignities.  Please pray for us. 

Srsly.

You guys need to be exempt from federal income taxes, what with all the hardships you endure. I mean, once I read that on New Year's Eve, Uber prices were, like, out of control, and I heard that even people earning $200k had to wait for a cab. The indignity!!

Really, Bono needs to organize a fundraising concert to raise awareness so the world may know the plight of the JP Morgan middle manager, and the hardships of living in Williamsburg on $93k a year.

[scout8]

I think inconveniences might be a better word choice than indignities.

[cosmos]

Aug 31, 2014 10:57:48 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

As someone raising a family in NYC making slightly under $100,000 I am rolling my eyes HARD at anyone who says you can't live on $250,000. And no I don't have to "put up with indignities", whatever that means.

I think I could easily live on $250k in the boroughs. I don't think it's true for Manhattan. People generally think of Manhattan when they think of NYC.

I know plenty of people who earn under $100k in NYC and have great lives. But none live in Manhattan.

And all my friends who do live in Manhattan have combined incomes of around $250k and they seem to be doing fine, they aren't complaining they are poor at all.

[v]

Sept 1, 2014 7:37:26 GMT -5 cosmos said:

Aug 31, 2014 10:57:48 GMT -5 bronxgirl said:

As someone raising a family in NYC making slightly under $100,000 I am rolling my eyes HARD at anyone who says you can't live on $250,000. And no I don't have to "put up with indignities", whatever that means.

I think I could easily live on $250k in the boroughs. I don't think it's true for Manhattan. People generally think of Manhattan when they think of NYC.

I know plenty of people who earn under $100k in NYC and have great lives. But none live in Manhattan.

And all my friends who do live in Manhattan have combined incomes of around $250k and they seem to be doing fine, they aren't complaining they are poor at all.

Well, the close, pricey parts of Brooklyn are almost as or as expensive as Manhattan. On the other hand, you could as easily live in the northern half of Manhattan (Harlem, Washington Heights, etc) on that income as you could live in cheaper parts of the boroughs. So really, it is the super expensive parts of the city that are super expensive to live in.

That said, even where housing is cheap things like groceries are ridiculously expensive, and while that may not be an issue for families earning $100k, but it is a huge issue for the high percentage living under the poverty line. But those issues are kind of neither here nor there, as this article is about the rich who complain.

[v]

Aug 31, 2014 21:29:19 GMT -5 ESF said:

Aug 30, 2014 17:26:14 GMT -5 v said:

First impression: meh.

Also, the comparison to SF based percentage earning x is stupid. People feel like you need a lot of money to get buy in NY because it is so expensive, not because x percent earn a certain amount.

The comparison seems flimsy because it doesn't provide enough information. But I assure you that it is a tremendous problem.

There are huge problems caused by the fact that an increasingly high number of people in SF earn so much money. Because there is so many of them as compared to people earning less, they absolutely can and do impact how the rest if the city functions,

For example, because there's so many rich people in the city, they have tremendous ability to pour money into legislative initiatives to prevent new housing from being built (under the guise of environmentalism but it's really NIMBYism), which in turn drives the cost of housing up even higher, because there's not enough housing. That pushes more lower income voters out, and more higher earners in.

Likewise, the high paying jobs are effectively creating their own public transit systems, so the wealthy no longer feel the need to see their local taxes spent on regular public transit. As they increasingly form a larger voting block, the public transit is increasingly deteriorating. That makes it harder and harder for lower income people to afford the city, so they leave, and more rich people move in.

I could go on and on.

I am not trying to start a pissing match as to who has it worse. No doubt, there are negative side effects to extreme income inequality in a lot of urban areas. But I really, really take issue with your conclusion that an exceptionally abnormal rate of of high earners as irrelevant to the impact it has on a lower earner's ability to live in a city. It is a creating a MASSIVE problem in SF right now.

I'm sure you're right about all of that, but I don't think that's what the author was getting at since the author isn't talking about low earners, but bitching high earners? That was my point. I don't think that people who live on $250k in Manhattan bitch simply because people are earning more than them. They bitch because a lot of their paycheck goes bye bye.

(But also, a lot really don't bitch.)

[Deleted]

Sept 1, 2014 7:28:16 GMT -5 scout8 said:

I think inconveniences might be a better word choice than indignities.

I don't even think inconveniences is the right word. People have different preferences.

I don't want to drive, so public transport isn't an inconvenience to me. I get way more annoyed sitting in my car in traffic than I do sitting on the bus or subway.

I don't want to have to take care of a yard, so having no land isn't an inconvenience to me.

I don't want to upkeep a house, so having shared walls isn't an inconvenience to me.

I'm lazy and if I use the dishwasher I hate unloading, so I prefer hand washing 1-2 dishes and putting it away right then, so having no dishwasher isn't an inconvenience to me.

I just find it funny that some people think that city living is so inconvenient and have to "put up with it" instead of thinking that people actually prefer how some things are with city living.