Do you judge grammar mistakes from non-native speakers?

[Deleted]

Particularly in a business setting?

I know a lot of people around here get irritated by grammar and spelling mistakes. I suck at grammar, so I don't judge because that'd be hypocritical. In professional settings I do triple check my writing though. 

So are you automatically turned off by mistakes if someone is a non-native English speaker? 

This is brought to you by a post on well-being. 

[mcfelix]

Non-native speakers - I do not.

Native speakers - absolutely.

[Deleted]

No.

[wysiwyg]

No way!

[lime]

No, not really.

This is a bit contextual, though, I feel.

[SwimDeep]

I work with a lot of people who speak English as a second language, and I don't judge them at all. It does make it difficult to do my work sometimes, though. (I'm a technical editor, so when I'm asking for clarification of something and the 'clarification' becomes even more confusing...it's just difficult...however, I recognize that the other person is also experiencing difficulty communicating, so I try my best to be patient.)

It is definitely contextual. And I judge native English speakers much more harshly than those who have made the effort to learn the basics.

[strawberriquen]

Definitely not! I would hope for the same thing if I moved to a non-English speaking country.

[cville]

No. I don't.

Well, I mean, I guess I might if it was something basic (like a non-atypical plural or something). But things like misunderstood idioms, dropped or misplaced articles, words that have a different nuance than is intended by the speaker, etc., no problem.

[SwimDeep]

Sept 1, 2014 16:29:56 GMT -5 @wandering said:

Particularly in a business setting?

I know a lot of people around here get irritated by grammar and spelling mistakes. I suck at grammar, so I don't judge because that'd be hypocritical. In professional settings I do triple check my writing though. 

So are you automatically turned off by mistakes if someone is a non-native English speaker? 

This is brought to you by a post on well-being. 

This is the acupuncture post?
...
no, I would not judge the wording of that advertisement. I do, however, judge the people laughing at it.

[zoidberg]

No, not at all.

[noodleskooze]

If I know the person is a non-native English speaker, then I would not judge.

[lulu13]

I don't get judging grammar mistakes period. I don't tend to feel good about myself by making other people feel stupid. It comes of very arrogant to me.

[CajunShrimp]

Nope.

I do judge native speakers who use text speak all the time. Really, taking the time to type the 'a' and 'e' in 'are' isn't going to kill you.

[wildfloweragain]

If it's published or some sort of finished product, like my McAfee pop-up from a few days ago, yes.

In conversation, no. I try to communicate with several friends and parents who speak other languages, and the object is just to get our point across. Bonus if we polish our skills.

It also didn't bother me when the Microsoft guy today didn't have his grammar down during the parts we had to communicate on-screen. Although, the communication barrier itself bothers me when I have to call Microsoft. Not the actual guy, though, he did his job.

[SwimDeep]

Sept 1, 2014 16:54:49 GMT -5 lulu13 said:

I don't get judging grammar mistakes period. I don't tend to feel good about myself by making other people feel stupid. It comes of very arrogant to me.

Exactly! Unless it's your job to make sure a document conforms to a certain standard, or you're trying to help someone learn the nuances of the English language, it doesn't make any sense to point out the mistakes. We all use colloquialisms and jargon and dialect. It's NORMAL!

[SwimDeep]

Sept 1, 2014 17:01:05 GMT -5 @gabasaurus said:

Nope, I think that post is in poor taste. I really admire people who work in an English-speaking workplace where it is clearly not their first language. English is not an easy language. When I lived in Rwanda I spent at least 75% of my working day communicating in French, writing reports in French, holding meetings in French- everyone was very patient with me.
So no judgement here!

OMG...I was SO LOST in China. I was there to help kids with their English skills, and I couldn't even order myself breakfast in the hotel restaurant.
I learned some basics, like how to say "no", "yes", "thank you", and "I'm Sorry".

grr...I'm watching Fight Club right now and I'm just pissed about this...

[kirra]

No.

But it's an advertising listing for their business. From a professional standpoint, I think it would have been a good idea to have someone proof it before publishing it.

Do I judge it? Not really. But if I'm choosing an office solely on published listings it makes me less likely to choose their business. If someone had recommended that office to me, it wouldn't stop me from using them.

[SwimDeep]

Sept 1, 2014 17:15:23 GMT -5 kirra said:

No.

But it's an advertising listing for their business. From a professional standpoint, I think it would have been a good idea to have someone proof it before publishing it.

Do I judge it? Not really. But if I'm choosing an office solely on published listings it makes me less likely to choose their business. If someone had recommended that office to me, it wouldn't stop me from using them.

I would be curious to see the area that their business is located in. I live near areas that are almost entirely non-English speaking. When I go to those areas, I don't have unrealistic expectations about the amount of English anyone might speak. I am polite and courteous, and I make every effort to communicate my questions, desires, or issues with patience and respect.

Laughing at what is more than likely an effort to promote a business (that might not even be able to afford an editor for their ad) is asshole-ish.

...yes...this is clearly touching a sore spot with me tonight...

[nsl]

One time, yes. Back when I was getting my teaching certification I was taking an online class from a professor whose native language was Spanish. It was incredibly difficult to understand his assignments because his spelling and grammar were so error-ridden. I teach a lot of non-native English speakers, and I work really hard to evaluate their writing on the basis of their ideas while also working with them to improve errors that are related to language acquisition, but I had zero patience with a professor with a Ph.D. in the humanities from UCLA who had lived and taught continuously in the United States since before I was born, but whose writing would have caused him to fail the exit-level high school English exam my students are required to pass before graduation.

I seem to recall getting flamed to high heaven on the other site for complaining about one of his assignments back then. I may get similarly flamed for this post now. At some point, though, in a professional setting you do need to make sure that the people you're communicating with in writing can easily understand what you're trying to say. This goes double for those who are trying to teach something to other people.

[kirra]

Sept 1, 2014 17:20:23 GMT -5 SwimDeep said:

Sept 1, 2014 17:15:23 GMT -5 kirra said:

No.

But it's an advertising listing for their business. From a professional standpoint, I think it would have been a good idea to have someone proof it before publishing it.

Do I judge it? Not really. But if I'm choosing an office solely on published listings it makes me less likely to choose their business. If someone had recommended that office to me, it wouldn't stop me from using them.

I would be curious to see the area that their business is located in. I live near areas that are almost entirely non-English speaking. When I go to those areas, I don't have unrealistic expectations about the amount of English anyone might speak. I am polite and courteous, and I make every effort to communicate my questions, desires, or issues with patience and respect.

Laughing at what is more than likely an effort to promote a business (that might not even be able to afford an editor for their ad) is asshole-ish.

...yes...this is clearly touching a sore spot with me tonight...

I didn't laugh at it.

I do wonder where it was posted. Not even just physical location. If it's an official online business listing, I really think they should have had someone proof it. If it's just an online post somewhere like fb, I don't think it matters nearly as much.

And this post didn't require an editor. It required someone with close to native written level knowledge. Maybe it's just my area or the people I know, but most of the people I know who came to the US as adults know someone who can proof a short listing like that (although for many it might be a friend's teenage kid).

[Deleted]

Sept 1, 2014 16:45:01 GMT -5 cville said:

No. I don't.

Well, I mean, I guess I might if it was something basic (like a non-atypical plural or something). But things like misunderstood idioms, dropped or misplaced articles, words that have a different nuance than is intended by the speaker, etc., no problem.

Ha, so then you do judge

I'm not sure what you mean by something basic. I have a lot of non-native American English speaking friends and worked overseas and often times things that we would probably consider basic they mess up on in writing (both in business and casual settings).

[SwimDeep]

Sept 1, 2014 17:28:08 GMT -5 kirra said:

Sept 1, 2014 17:20:23 GMT -5 SwimDeep said:

I would be curious to see the area that their business is located in. I live near areas that are almost entirely non-English speaking. When I go to those areas, I don't have unrealistic expectations about the amount of English anyone might speak. I am polite and courteous, and I make every effort to communicate my questions, desires, or issues with patience and respect.

Laughing at what is more than likely an effort to promote a business (that might not even be able to afford an editor for their ad) is asshole-ish.

...yes...this is clearly touching a sore spot with me tonight...

I didn't laugh at it.

I do wonder where it was posted. Not even just physical location. If it's an official online business listing, I really think they should have had someone proof it. If it's just an online post somewhere like fb, I don't think it matters nearly as much.

And this post didn't require an editor. It required someone with close to native written level knowledge. Maybe it's just my area or the people I know, but most of the people I know who came to the US as adults know someone who can proof a short listing like that (although for many it might be a friend's teenage kid).

I'm sorry: I didn't mean to imply that you were laughing at it. The OP was laughing at it, and I got hot under the collar. I actually don't 'know' any of the non-English speaker I engage with beyond a customer/businessperson relationship, and I have a tendency to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. So when I see someone laughing at someone's apparent shortcomings in communication, I get steamed.

[SwimDeep]

Sept 1, 2014 17:20:45 GMT -5 nsl said:

One time, yes. Back when I was getting my teaching certification I was taking an online class from a professor whose native language was Spanish. It was incredibly difficult to understand his assignments because his spelling and grammar were so error-ridden. I teach a lot of non-native English speakers, and I work really hard to evaluate their writing on the basis of their ideas while also working with them to improve errors that are related to language acquisition, but I had zero patience with a professor with a Ph.D. in the humanities from UCLA who had lived and taught continuously in the United States since before I was born, but whose writing would have caused him to fail the exit-level high school English exam my students are required to pass before graduation.

I seem to recall getting flamed to high heaven on the other site for complaining about one of his assignments back then. I may get similarly flamed for this post now. At some point, though, in a professional setting you do need to make sure that the people you're communicating with in writing can easily understand what you're trying to say. This goes double for those who are trying to teach something to other people.

I think I remember this from way back when I was lurking... I agree with you! I studied under several professors who had PhDs and were practically above the need to communicate to the lesser individuals trying to learn from them.
So frustrating!

Maybe that's one of the reasons I'm so up in arms about those who struggle to speak a second language. I hated the way my professors treated me. Why on earth would I want to treat someone else like that?

[kirra]

Sept 1, 2014 17:33:00 GMT -5 @wandering said:

Sept 1, 2014 16:45:01 GMT -5 cville said:

No. I don't.

Well, I mean, I guess I might if it was something basic (like a non-atypical plural or something). But things like misunderstood idioms, dropped or misplaced articles, words that have a different nuance than is intended by the speaker, etc., no problem.

Ha, so then you do judge

I'm not sure what you mean by something basic. I have a lot of non-native American English speaking friends and worked overseas and often times things that we would probably consider basic they mess up on in writing (both in business and casual settings).

The concept of basic is really interesting.

My linguistics professor works with the university's foreign exchange students, and she said they focus on the things that make the biggest difference first, and that sometimes things native speakers consider easy and basic are harder to teach/learn than what we might consider intermediate or even advanced. I think (but could be wrong- it's been a while) one of her examples that was harder to teach than expected and put off a while was articles. She said almost any native speaker can understand a student's writing even if the articles are wrong, so they worked on things that impair communication first.

[Deleted]

Sept 1, 2014 17:40:25 GMT -5 kirra said:

Sept 1, 2014 17:33:00 GMT -5 @wandering said:

Ha, so then you do judge

I'm not sure what you mean by something basic. I have a lot of non-native American English speaking friends and worked overseas and often times things that we would probably consider basic they mess up on in writing (both in business and casual settings).

The concept of basic is really interesting.

My linguistics professor works with the university's foreign exchange students, and she said they focus on the things that make the biggest difference first, and that sometimes things native speakers consider easy and basic are harder to teach/learn than what we might consider intermediate or even advanced. I think (but could be wrong- it's been a while) one of her examples that was harder to teach than expected and put off a while was articles. She said almost any native speaker can understand a student's writing even if the articles are wrong, so they worked on things that impair communication first.

Yep!

I was actually just listening to a segment today on NPR about language. It was actually about speed dating and language.

But anyway, it basically said that we don't even list to words like "this, that, the" for example and just hone in on the subject words like "school, family, house" and those words evoke emotion so you pay attention.

It's particularly true when you're learning a new language because you just want to understand the overall meaning so oftentimes you don't even pick up on those "basic" words. I know I often times have a hard time putting sentences together in French because I know the basic pronouns, nouns and verbs in present and past tense, but get tripped up on all the connecting words. 

[caitlinbree]

Nope. I work with a number of people who are ESL, and basically all of our customers are ESL (I work in exports).

[joshlyman]

No, I can't even imagine how hard it is to learn a new language to the point you can work in a professional environment - I am not going to judge mistakes there.

Native speakers? Yes. So much.

[ECB]

No. But recently on a project I'm on - another dept put together a website for the project. They had a woman handle it whose first language is not English. So... it was written pretty horribly. I didn't judge HER for that. But I kind of questioned the logic behind giving her that task to handle.

My boss - who is an English major and HUGE on grammar - handed in his corrections to her and all is well. But it just seemed an odd choice at the outset.

Of course, they may have had her do it KNOWING my boss would fix it.

[EmilieMadison]

Sept 1, 2014 16:58:24 GMT -5 SwimDeep said:

Sept 1, 2014 16:54:49 GMT -5 lulu13 said:

I don't get judging grammar mistakes period. I don't tend to feel good about myself by making other people feel stupid. It comes of very arrogant to me.

Exactly! Unless it's your job to make sure a document conforms to a certain standard, or you're trying to help someone learn the nuances of the English language, it doesn't make any sense to point out the mistakes. We all use colloquialisms and jargon and dialect. It's NORMAL!

It is not normal, nor should it be acceptable, for a native English speaker to use improper grammar in a business setting when business is being conducted in English. 

[SwimDeep]

Sept 1, 2014 17:53:52 GMT -5 EmilieMadison said:

Sept 1, 2014 16:58:24 GMT -5 SwimDeep said:

Exactly! Unless it's your job to make sure a document conforms to a certain standard, or you're trying to help someone learn the nuances of the English language, it doesn't make any sense to point out the mistakes. We all use colloquialisms and jargon and dialect. It's NORMAL!

It is not normal, nor should it be acceptable, for a native English speaker to use improper grammar in a business setting when business is being conducted in English. 

I thought this conversation was specific to speakers of English as a second language...

I will absolutely judge native English speakers for poor grammar/spelling skills - especially in a business setting.