But you can buy your way into those things. It's not like if you're born to a poor or middle class family but manage to become a successful surgeon who makes $600k per year that you're forever middle class.
If you're in the top 2% of earners and have a SoHo loft whose rent cost more than the majority of Americans' annual income, you're not middle class just because your parents aren't Vanderbilts.
There are many, many private clubs & circles that you cannot buy your way into, no matter how much money you have. Or you can buy your way in, but in order to do that, you have to act a certain way, have made the right friends, and attended the right type of schools to prove yourself.
Regardless, this is always such an interesting discussion. How many classes are there in this country? Is it just working class - middle class - upper class? Or more? I would suggest that there are many striations within the upper class, just as there are divisions within the middle class.
Ok, but the existence of a handful of organizations that you can't buy your way into doesn't mean that one can't be upper class unless you're born into a pre-designated upper class family.
My hypothetical $600k/year income surgeon isn't middle class just because she isn't eligible for admission to DAR.
But you can buy your way into those things. It's not like if you're born to a poor or middle class family but manage to become a successful surgeon who makes $600k per year that you're forever middle class.
If you're in the top 2% of earners and have a SoHo loft whose rent cost more than the majority of Americans' annual income, you're not middle class just because your parents aren't Vanderbilts.
There are many, many private clubs & circles that you cannot buy your way into, no matter how much money you have. Or you can buy your way in, but in order to do that, you have to act a certain way, have made the right friends, and attended the right type of schools to prove yourself.
Regardless, this is always such an interesting discussion. How many classes are there in this country? Is it just working class - middle class - upper class? Or more? I would suggest that there are many striations within the upper class, just as there are divisions within the middle class.
I would also suggest there are many divisons within the upper class.
There's certainly a high-earning, elite-educated professional class that is distinct from the middle.
Way to put words in my mouth. Where did I say I wasn't wealthy? Upper class has very particular meaning, and most Americans -- including most wealthy Americans -- fall on the vast, vast spectrum that is the American middle class.
Unless we're counting the middle class as only the median 20% of any particular county, which would be stupid.
Except this isn't the United Kingdom or India where "class" is something that has to do with breeding. In the U.S. uniquely, we often conflate class and income because we value the self-made man and wanted to create a classless society. Trying to say you're not "upper class" in the British sense of the word is just a pointless discussion.
I am 100% sure there is a Kennedy brat "earning" less than I do in a year, but they would still be considered "higher class" than me (or v or any of us on here). Claim that isn't true in today's America all you want, but it is.
I may be in the top 10% of annual income in my rural county, but that does not make me in the same "class" as people down the road that own the large horse farms that are their 3rd/4th vacation homes and who have last names you all would recognize from your American history/business/politics courses.
Using the indicators above:
Wealth: Right now--slightly in the negative. If the next attempt at drilling a new well doesn't yield water and we have to walk away from the house= ~-$500K total "wealth", so hmmm, probably "poor" to "lower working or middle class" there
Annual income: top 10% of our county, much lower for the counties/cities we actually work in vs live in, but yeah higher than the average American
Education: both have B.S. degrees--so in the middle class range there
Occupation: both have white collar, non-managerial roles--so firmly middle class there
Membership in a specific subculture or social network: We have a couple of friends that are lower upper class-like, but the bulk range from lower middle class to middle class. Wine is probably our only "upper class" subculture but we're even on the lower end of wine lovers and don't have a social network related to that
So to say we're not middle class because one of five indicators puts us above the average is wrong. It might put us into the upper middle class range (and that is where I'd consider us), but there is no way it puts us in the "Upper Class".
Is is true that in Amercia, breeding doesn't necessarily equal class. My DH has the chance to be Upper Class even though he was born poor to working class parents (hell, the house he lived in the first years of his life still had an outhouse). But he definitely isn't there yet. The difference with the American Class system is that he *could* make it there, where as in India/Britain, he couldn't just do to his recent linage (even though he actually is a far off descendant of old, pre-independence upper class family).
So what we've learned here is that some of us think that "upper class" is something with special meaning that goes beyond simply earning more than most people. Some of us define it differently. So you say tomato and I say tomato. No need for a death match.
Also, absolutely NO-ONE is saying that the surgeon earning $600,000/year is struggling or middle income or isn't wealthy.
So what we've learned here is that some of us think that "upper class" is something with special meaning that goes beyond simply earning more than most people. Some of us define it differently. So you say tomato and I say tomato. No need for a death match.
Also, absolutely NO-ONE is saying that the surgeon earning $600,000/year is struggling or middle income or isn't wealthy.
But Moooommmmmmmm, I have real work I don't feel like doing...
Honestly, I just have an issue with annual income=class and that probably is related to me growing up in countries still operating on closer-to-British-Colonial Class systems.
There's certainly a high-earning, elite-educated professional class that is distinct from the middle.
This is interesting. In my job, I am a peon supporting a very-high-level individual. He is only associated with our organization bc he is in semi-retirement; he has a very elite pedigree.
He recently made some disparaging remarks about our Executive Director, who makes upwards of $400K a year, for her humble educational background. (Her masters is from a state school; his undergrad, MD and PhD are all from Ivies)
While I would consider both to be upper class, I don't think he considers her to be on his level, for reasons that go beyond merely her current title/stature and salary.
Post by WinterWine on Sept 15, 2014 11:33:20 GMT -5
No, we are not middle class. Our HHI is around 2.5x the top of the range for our county. I'd be kidding myself if I thought we were middle class. We aren't swimming in money. However we have chosen to live in the most expensive neighborhood in the county bc it has the best schools, we have chosen to max retirement and investments , and we choose to take vacations abroad. As pp said, the fact that we have the ability to make these choices by definition, means that we are not middle class.
That being said, we both drive 10 year old cars and live a more frugal lifestyle than out neighbors- however they are not middle class.
I'm having a hard time reading my results through my monocle. I'll have to get the butler to let me know where I fall once he returns with my midmorning champagne and caviar.
I think the class discussion is funny because although someone like V may not be "upper class" by what we think of sometimes (wealthy family, membership in those clubs, etc) I think it would be silly to argue that she and I are in the same class. I make a fraction of what she does, live in a dumpy rental in Iowa, and maybe can take 1 budget vacation per year. To say we're both middle class misses the mark. By this calculator I actually am solidly middle class, and my lifestyle fits my definition of middle class. IDK what class I'd say V is, but we're not the same. Not even close!
I think the class discussion is funny because although someone like V may not be "upper class" by what we think of sometimes (wealthy family, membership in those clubs, etc) I think it would be silly to argue that she and I are in the same class. I make a fraction of what she does, live in a dumpy rental in Iowa, and maybe can take 1 budget vacation per year. To say we're both middle class misses the mark. By this calculator I actually am solidly middle class, and my lifestyle fits my definition of middle class. IDK what class I'd say V is, but we're not the same. Not even close!
But to me, that's just how America works. In my view, there is a fairly large poor population, and a minuscule upper class of household names/Forbes listers/etc. and their progeny, and everyone else falls somewhere in the very, very large middle class. That isn't to say that there aren't HUGE differences between the lower middle class and the upper middle class (or even the middle middle class and the lower or upper middles or the upper middles and the upper upper middles), and that there aren't plenty of wealthy upper middles -- but in my view, they're all parts of the middle class to which the vast majority of Americans belong.
Post by karinothing on Sept 15, 2014 12:06:50 GMT -5
I do not feel upper class at all, but I know we are. I know we are because I can afford 20% into retirement, a mortgage, and nearly 2K a month in daycare costs. I simply do not feel upper class because my money is being spent elsewhere and it is hard to see the tangible results of it. I am sure once we are done with daycare and I can actually afford to take vacations or buy stuff just for fun, I will feel upper class.
I think the class discussion is funny because although someone like V may not be "upper class" by what we think of sometimes (wealthy family, membership in those clubs, etc) I think it would be silly to argue that she and I are in the same class. I make a fraction of what she does, live in a dumpy rental in Iowa, and maybe can take 1 budget vacation per year. To say we're both middle class misses the mark. By this calculator I actually am solidly middle class, and my lifestyle fits my definition of middle class. IDK what class I'd say V is, but we're not the same. Not even close!
But to me, that's just how America works. In my view, there is a fairly large poor population, and a minuscule upper class of household names/Forbes listers/etc. and their progeny, and everyone else falls somewhere in the very, very large middle class. That isn't to say that there aren't HUGE differences between the lower middle class and the upper middle class (or even the middle middle class and the lower or upper middles or the upper middles and the upper upper middles), and that there aren't plenty of wealthy upper middles -- but in my view, they're all parts of the middle class to which the vast majority of Americans belong.
Why do you think poor and middle classes are large groups, but upper class is minuscule? I'm missing that logic. It seems to me that as a most basic definition, lower class would be a third, middle class a third, and upper class a third. This debate always seems pointless to me because it always becomes about how people FEEL, rather than where they stand in relation to the rest of the country.
But to me, that's just how America works. In my view, there is a fairly large poor population, and a minuscule upper class of household names/Forbes listers/etc. and their progeny, and everyone else falls somewhere in the very, very large middle class. That isn't to say that there aren't HUGE differences between the lower middle class and the upper middle class (or even the middle middle class and the lower or upper middles or the upper middles and the upper upper middles), and that there aren't plenty of wealthy upper middles -- but in my view, they're all parts of the middle class to which the vast majority of Americans belong.
Why do you think poor and middle classes are large groups, but upper class is minuscule? I'm missing that logic. It seems to me that as a most basic definition, lower class would be a third, middle class a third, and upper class a third. This debate always seems pointless to me because it always becomes about how people FEEL, rather than where they stand in relation to the rest of the country.
Because to me (and I'm certainly not alone in this), "upper class" is an incredibly rarefied title of the American aristocracy/elite. I see that as something that applies to the maybe top .01% of the population. But really, we're just arguing semantics here. I have a different definition of upper class than some of the rest of you do.
That doesn't mean that I don't think that I don't think it is silly to be like "I make a lot of money but I feel average because have you seen my daycare costs?" or "I make a lot of money but I must be poor because you should see the houses that some of the other people in this town live in." I don't think how you feel changes how you compare to America at large. I just think that you can be pretty damn rich (far, far, far into the top third of income in America) without falling into what to me is the rarefied upper class. That's it.
In a world where we really were splitting society in thirds and the top third was "upper class" rather than "upper middle class" or whatever I would clearly be upper class. I just see "upper class" as something that's a little different.
What would be required for people to feel that they are upper class?
In my area of the country? Maybe being able to tell a Congressperson's secretary your name and have your call immediately put through to them. Receiving invites to White House events and not having to sneak in la The Salahis. Attending polo matches because you have a horse/jockey actually playing in it. Being considered worthy of having your picture included and be named in the caption in an article about a benefit. (FYI: The Salahis live(d) in my county, they are/were considered wannabe Upper Classers around here, not really Upper Class.)
See how none of those really have to do with annual income?
Post by joshlyman on Sept 15, 2014 12:29:16 GMT -5
We make slightly more than the range for our county, but like others have said, the income disparity in our county is huge between cities. If it was done by city I have no doubt we would fall in the middle if not lower end of the range.
But to me, that's just how America works. In my view, there is a fairly large poor population, and a minuscule upper class of household names/Forbes listers/etc. and their progeny, and everyone else falls somewhere in the very, very large middle class. That isn't to say that there aren't HUGE differences between the lower middle class and the upper middle class (or even the middle middle class and the lower or upper middles or the upper middles and the upper upper middles), and that there aren't plenty of wealthy upper middles -- but in my view, they're all parts of the middle class to which the vast majority of Americans belong.
Why do you think poor and middle classes are large groups, but upper class is minuscule? I'm missing that logic. It seems to me that as a most basic definition, lower class would be a third, middle class a third, and upper class a third. This debate always seems pointless to me because it always becomes about how people FEEL, rather than where they stand in relation to the rest of the country.
Because her HHI puts her in the top 2% of earners but she "feels" middle class. The population with a higher HHI than her is quite small. Thus the only way to claim her feelings are consistent with facts is to decide the facts say the upper class is minuscule to non-existent.
Why do you think poor and middle classes are large groups, but upper class is minuscule? I'm missing that logic. It seems to me that as a most basic definition, lower class would be a third, middle class a third, and upper class a third. This debate always seems pointless to me because it always becomes about how people FEEL, rather than where they stand in relation to the rest of the country.
Because to me (and I'm certainly not alone in this), "upper class" is an incredibly rarefied title of the American aristocracy/elite. I see that as something that applies to the maybe top .01% of the population. But really, we're just arguing semantics here. I have a different definition of upper class than some of the rest of you do.
That doesn't mean that I don't think that I don't think it is silly to be like "I make a lot of money but I feel average because have you seen my daycare costs?" or "I make a lot of money but I must be poor because you should see the houses that some of the other people in this town live in." I don't think how you feel changes how you compare to America at large. I just think that you can be pretty damn rich (far, far, far into the top third of income in America) without falling into what to me is the rarefied upper class. That's it.
In a world where we really were splitting society in thirds and the top third was "upper class" rather than "upper middle class" or whatever I would clearly be upper class. I just see "upper class" as something that's a little different.
It really is semantics. It makes no sense because it only goes one way. No one is calling the Kardashians lower class because they have no class, KWIM? By your logic, they too would be middle class. You can't be middle class if you're at the top. There's too much subjectivity in your definition, IMO. I hear what you're saying, but I think it's pointless to confuse an economic issue with social issues. If you're bringing in half a million a year, how is it relevant that you can't join a snooty golf course? Most of us are looking at this as straight economics.
Why do you think poor and middle classes are large groups, but upper class is minuscule? I'm missing that logic. It seems to me that as a most basic definition, lower class would be a third, middle class a third, and upper class a third. This debate always seems pointless to me because it always becomes about how people FEEL, rather than where they stand in relation to the rest of the country.
Because her HHI puts her in the top 2% of earners but she "feels" middle class. The population with a higher HHI than her is quite small. Thus the only way to claim her feelings are consistent with facts is to decide the facts say the upper class is minuscule to non-existent.
Again, putting words in my mouth. I have said nothing about how I "feel" except to say that duh, I am wealthy. I know and feel that we make a whole lot more money than most, and that we live a privileged existence. I just think that there's a very tiny group that falls into the "upper class" that I would bet none of us on this board will ever fall into. That's what upper class is to me. Which means that, in my view, most 1%ers (and everyone below) falls into upper middle, middle, lower middle, or poor.
But hey, if I said that the sky is blue, you'd probably tell me I'm wrong and try to make me out as a monster for thinking that, so...
Because her HHI puts her in the top 2% of earners but she "feels" middle class. The population with a higher HHI than her is quite small. Thus the only way to claim her feelings are consistent with facts is to decide the facts say the upper class is minuscule to non-existent.
Again, putting words in my mouth. I have said nothing about how I "feel" except to say that duh, I am wealthy. I know and feel that we make a whole lot more money than most, and that we live a privileged existence. I just think that there's a very tiny group that falls into the "upper class" that I would bet none of us on this board will ever fall into. That's what upper class is to me. Which means that, in my view, most 1%ers (and everyone below) falls into upper middle, middle, lower middle, or poor.
But hey, if I said that the sky is blue, you'd probably tell me I'm wrong and try to make me out as a monster for thinking that, so...
Saying you think there is some upper class in this country that nobody here belongs to, with no actual data to define this upper class, is not much different than saying you feel middle class. Your criteria for what would make you upper class seems to be similar to that of obscenity.