So if income alone determines class such that professionals with high incomes are all upper class regardless of social attributes, does that mean that someone from an upper class background who stands to inherit $$$$ is suddenly middle class if she chooses to work at a low-paying job and thus has a middle class income?
I know a few people who currently have middle class incomes (generally at jobs like assistant curator at an art museum or assistant editor at a decorating or food magazine) but still lead what I would consider upper class lives. They have degrees from elite private colleges and houses in rich neighborhoods, all paid for in full by their parents. They host fancy catered affairs in their homes where white gloved waiters in tuxedos pass drinks on silver trays. They have fabulous designer wardrobes and take amazing international trips, all funded by their parents. They have junior executive memberships to the country club, also paid for by their parents. They attend a large number of balls. Are those people seriously middle class because their trust distributions don't kick in for another 5 years and they have to wait for their parents to die before claiming their 8 figure inheritances? I have a really hard time believing that.
@linzercookie I'm not saying we don't have money. That's not the point. I guess I've always seen class as a more social entity than an economic one. We can afford to join a country club. But we don't (primarily) because I don't think I'd feel comfortable there. I'd feel out of place. I'm that rube who invariably overtips service people like waiters, bellboys, valets, etc. because a.) I used to wait tables and know how much it sucks and b.) I feel really, really awkward asking someone else to do something for me that I'm perfectly capable of doing myself (such as carrying my luggage or cleaning my house). I feel awkward in super nice hotel lobbies, like I don't really belong there. I realize this sounds odd and kind of neurotic but you'd know what I'm talking about if you grew up the way I did (my mother was a waitress and my father a mechanic for many years before he eventually joined the local FD and we moved up the SES ladder). There were years when we actually relied on my dad's hunter friends for food in the winter. Your background has a lot to do with your social class.
It's not crazy to think that in three generations, your family could have gone from eating the food they hunted to being part of eating clubs at Princeton. That lifestyle is there for your kids' taking. That's the great part of America! Class is not destiny.
Although some people may try to argue otherwise, we do not have a defined aristocracy in the U.S. and we never did. That's why we don't have titles and why our elite institutions have at least some degree of affirmative action. We've always valued the self-made man.
No one would dare say that Larry Page or Barack Obama aren't members of the elite because of their pedigree. Even those vaunted families we keep mentioning as "proof" of an aristocracy got that way because of money -- their business success (ETA: and their philanthropy) -- not their noble bloodlines.
I don't know how well I think this works for HCOL. It says our HHI is 4x middle class for our county. But in our neighborhood, you couldn't rent on what it calls the median. County? Maybe. But there are some really low income areas that I think skew the results quite a bit.
Post by cjeanette on Sept 15, 2014 21:11:41 GMT -5
I sent this CNN link to H and was telling him I was surprised how low the middle class income range was. He called me out of touch. I so need to direct him to this thread. Lol
We are pretty much in the center of middle class for our county right now, but that's because DH is unemployed. When DH is finally employed, we will be well over.
Apparently my H is less out of touch than me. I asked him if he thought we were middle class and first he asked, "by income or by spending?" but then he said, "by income we are definitely not middle class." I admitted that I came around to the same conclusion today, and told him I had learned that we were ~95%-ers. He asked me how I felt about my childhood after this revelation. Now I'm having a crisis of identity. I admit I am not too comfortable with the term "upper class."
Good Lord, I'm surprised nuggetbrain hasn't rolled in here with her basic bitch gif yet.
All that bullshit nonsense is why I stopped posting on here. If V is fucking middle class then I'm white.
"I don't FEEL upper class because, you know, my neighbors are all uber wealthy." Heifer, PLEASE go sat down. I might not feel fat but that doesn't mean my scale is fucking lying to me. NUMBERS DON'T LIE, LADIES. YOU ARE NOT MIDDLE CLASS.
We need more of this perspective on here.
I don't *feel* upper class but I can certainly acknowledge that our income puts us above middle class, and we don't even make as much as many of the big dogs here. There is definitely a skewed perspective on MM.
Hrm. I found the range listed to be really narrow (I checked a few counties where we have lived over the years). But, that makes sense based on the follow up comments that it is focusing on the middle fifth percentile of income.
I think DH and I are coming to terms with the thinking that by many folks definitions, we'd be upper class. *blink* It feels weird to say that, but our annual income is relatively high by darn near every gauge I can come up with. If we were no longer DINKs, it would drop quickly to a fairly median range, but while we're both working, both as what would likely be called "professions", it's up there. Yes, we have to work for a living, but we're not exactly pinching pennies out of necessity. It's less of an adjustment for me (grew up in middle to upper-middle family), but it's a big one for DH (grew up dirt poor).
By social gauges, we may even be considered upper-middle, or upper, even though we don't really move in rarified circles of the like that people here are discussing. We're miles from that, but to an objective observer, they may well call our professions "upper". I don't know.
No clue if folks would find this all laughable or not.
This is America, not Great Britain. The social niche or whatever you think you have isn't a thing. In America, class is about money. Plain and simple. We don't have aristocracy or landed gentry. Your lifestyle creep that makes you not "feel" middle class doesn't matter. Your student loans don't matter. If you make above the amount of money in that bracket, you are wealthy.
Class is about more than just money though. The NYT had a fabulous piece we looked at on MM that had a slider where you could input education, profession and income. Class is a combination of factors and I think income is a big part of it but not all.
I'll admit I'm upper class. I think v is too. I think saying that upper class is only the 1% or .01% is crazy. I'm more like the 10% in terms of income but I think my educational background, coming from a long line of college educated family members, etc all goes into it.
Post by bohemianmango on Sept 15, 2014 22:11:45 GMT -5
Pssst...has anyone pointed this out from the CNN calculator page yet?
"Notes: Figures are from the U.S. Census Bureau’s 2010-2012 American Community Survey in 2013 dollars. They reflect the household income of the middle fifth of residents in each county. Counties with populations greater than 20,000 are included."
All of a sudden, this argument over middle classness (my own made-up word) seems so passé.
Good Lord, I'm surprised nuggetbrain hasn't rolled in here with her basic bitch gif yet.
All that bullshit nonsense is why I stopped posting on here. If V is fucking middle class then I'm white.
"I don't FEEL upper class because, you know, my neighbors are all uber wealthy." Heifer, PLEASE go sat down. I might not feel fat but that doesn't mean my scale is fucking lying to me. NUMBERS DON'T LIE, LADIES. YOU ARE NOT MIDDLE CLASS.
LOL.
I don't even have six hunnit and fiddy dollas in my checking account. What do those numbers say about me?
This is America, not Great Britain. The social niche or whatever you think you have isn't a thing. In America, class is about money. Plain and simple. We don't have aristocracy or landed gentry. Your lifestyle creep that makes you not "feel" middle class doesn't matter. Your student loans don't matter. If you make above the amount of money in that bracket, you are wealthy.
Class is about more than just money though. The NYT had a fabulous piece we looked at on MM that had a slider where you could input education, profession and income. Class is a combination of factors and I think income is a big part of it but not all.
I'll admit I'm upper class. I think v is too. I think saying that upper class is only the 1% or .01% is crazy. I'm more like the 10% in terms of income but I think my educational background, coming from a long line of college educated family members, etc all goes into it.
I used the 1% because that is what the three class models used by sociologists had as the top class (or I assume they use--my last sociology class was long before these three were published). I actually did provide source material to support what I have said here (although it *was* wikipedia...), I didn't just pull that out of my ass.
Really, my issue here is that the original link is not about "class", it's about average annual income per county. We can (and will) argue what constitutes different levels of class, but class does not equal just annual income.
And I am currently solidly Upper Middle Class. There have been times, in certain places, where I was in an Upper Class family and there is no way anyone will convince me that my current life is close to that. But then, we're only MM Rich but not LoveTrains, V, or lcap Rich
Warren Buffet lives in a five bedroom house he bought in 1958 for $35,000? Does that mean he is middle class cause he doesn't live the upper class lifestyle?
Oppss... He just bought a new Caddy, I guess now crossed the line into upper class.
Anyone else curious about the data they are collecting with this widget? I want to know how many people think they are middle class who really are not. I mean, aside from everyone on MM.
So my rambling point I guess, is that we can argue semantics ("Am I still middle class if I qualify to contribute to a Roth IRA?!"), but that's mostly what it is. Semantics. Keep on arguing whether a $25k raise takes you out of the middle class, but the people who actually control our country, like the Koch brothers, are laughing all the way to the bank. Bread and circuses.
Post by hopenotlost on Sept 16, 2014 8:46:04 GMT -5
We are lower than middle class, but we are better off than some of the "richy" families in our town. We don't have a lot of bills, just small credit cards that we pay off each month to help our credit scores, and our minivan payment. Oh and our SLs. But we pay everything on time each month, put 10% or more into savings, and our girls have everything they need and a lot of what they want.
Would I like more money? Sure. But it would go straight to savings, because I have been broke off my ass before, and I don't like that feeling.
So if income alone determines class such that professionals with high incomes are all upper class regardless of social attributes, does that mean that someone from an upper class background who stands to inherit $$$$ is suddenly middle class if she chooses to work at a low-paying job and thus has a middle class income?
I know a few people who currently have middle class incomes (generally at jobs like assistant curator at an art museum or assistant editor at a decorating or food magazine) but still lead what I would consider upper class lives. They have degrees from elite private colleges and houses in rich neighborhoods, all paid for in full by their parents. They host fancy catered affairs in their homes where white gloved waiters in tuxedos pass drinks on silver trays. They have fabulous designer wardrobes and take amazing international trips, all funded by their parents. They have junior executive memberships to the country club, also paid for by their parents. They attend a large number of balls. Are those people seriously middle class because their trust distributions don't kick in for another 5 years and they have to wait for their parents to die before claiming their 8 figure inheritances? I have a really hard time believing that.
No, because they have other money available. I don't think income has to just mean salary. Or maybe income is the wrong word to use. For most of us, our income determines what is available to us, but if people have so much money and so many things at their disposal despite their salary, they are still upper class.
You can continue on with your magical math all you want but numbers actually do mean something. $150k IS THAT MUCH DIFFERENT THAN $75k. I mean, I can't even with this nonsense. As somebody who is solidly middle class - REAL middle class, not "struggling to put two kids through private school and live in Manhattan and go to Disney every year and fully fund retirement and college funds" - doubling my income would fucking blow.my.mind. Making six times what I make, per your previous example of $300k basically being just like $50k? Get the fuck out. For real.
I discussed this not too long ago.
Whether you use 75K or 150K as your examples, the numbers are somewhat arbitrary. I think they chose $75K as a number because in most places this allows for people to pay their bills and gives a little room for saving (obviously this amount would vary in different areas,). So let's say, $X allows you to pay all of your bills and allow for some savings, would $2X make you that much happier?
I can answer this question for myself, because in recent years our HHI has tripled. The extra money definitely allows me to live more extravagantly than I ever did before, but I am I happier than I was when I was making less money? No, I'm not.
Furthermore, is my happiness level that much greater than when I grew up (my dad an electrician and my mom a part time waitress?)? No it's not.
To me, that's the point of the statement. Yeah doubling your income is going to allow you to afford more things, but if you've reached the level at which your needs and some savings are covered, doubling your income is not going to double your happiness.
Good Lord, I'm surprised nuggetbrain hasn't rolled in here with her basic bitch gif yet.
All that bullshit nonsense is why I stopped posting on here. If V is fucking middle class then I'm white.
"I don't FEEL upper class because, you know, my neighbors are all uber wealthy." Heifer, PLEASE go sat down. I might not feel fat but that doesn't mean my scale is fucking lying to me. NUMBERS DON'T LIE, LADIES. YOU ARE NOT MIDDLE CLASS.
Ding ding ding, we have a winner.
Seriously people - you don't figure out your "class" (CLEARLY 100% based on HHI in the CNN poll, so the rest of this thread is just bullshit) by what is left over after you pay for your huge mortgage, all your bills, full time daycare for three kids, a couple of nice cars, your modest vacations, and maxing out your goddamn retirement and savings. Those expenses are CHOICES that you make because you have the financial flexibility to make them.
WHAT THE FUCK.
News flash: lots of actual middle class Americans, based on that CNN poll, can't afford to do even half of that shit.
(This discussion is rage-inducing enough for me to come out of the recesses of lurkerdom.)
You can continue on with your magical math all you want but numbers actually do mean something. $150k IS THAT MUCH DIFFERENT THAN $75k. I mean, I can't even with this nonsense. As somebody who is solidly middle class - REAL middle class, not "struggling to put two kids through private school and live in Manhattan and go to Disney every year and fully fund retirement and college funds" - doubling my income would fucking blow.my.mind. Making six times what I make, per your previous example of $300k basically being just like $50k? Get the fuck out. For real.
Well, yeah duh, because, like, taxes, and daycare.
Warren Buffet lives in a five bedroom house he bought in 1958 for $35,000? Does that mean he is middle class cause he doesn't live the upper class lifestyle?
Oppss... He just bought a new Caddy, I guess now crossed the line into upper class.
No, because again "Most definitions of class structure group people according to wealth, income, education, type of occupation, and membership in a specific subculture or social network."
The only of those that possibly has to do with actual current spending is the last.
I mean, I'm not an expert on the finances of the Kennedy or Bush families. But I'm going to say that RFK's grandson who gets a job at 35k out of college is not middle class, but that's due to his overall assets. If your family has several "compounds," you are not middle class. If you have a trust fund that means you dont really have to work, you are not middle class, regardless of your current salary.
If you make 500k a year, you are not middle class. Hell H and I make less than half of that and I would never classify ourselves as middle class.
Like LHC said, there is a difference between social class and economic class but honestly, it's probably not as wide a divide as many here are making it out to be.
What exactly is that difference? Can you link to a source? Because the ones I've found defining "class" in America all mix the two and are far more heavily influenced by the economic factors vs the social--and those are even sociology models, not economic ones.
I also read an article a few years ago about a couple with nice professional jobs. One was a dentist and one was something else high end. And they made $400k/year, which is approaching the 1%. But they lived paycheck to paycheck because they had two young kids in private school. They lived in a 1 bedroom apartment in Manhattan and couldn't afford something bigger near their offices.
And then, of course, someone posted the article last week about how living in a HCOL area IS a lifestyle choice, and one that people with more money are able to choose to make. Living in the middle of Manhattan is a choice. Private school is a choice.* Paying for your kids to go to college is a choice. A nicer car is a choice, etc. Which I get, but even for people at that income bracket, it's like death by a thousand cuts. Okay, so you get a new job and you make $20k more than you did, so now you're in the 6 figure range! But you might pay slightly more in taxes. And decide to increase your life insurance. And maybe increase your retirement contributions. So you're slightly better off than your friend making $75k, but it doesn't REALLY feel like it from a lifestyle perspective.
I guess that was my point with our friend who's a plumber. We have houses that cost similar amounts. Our kids will go to the same school. They don't pay for childcare, but we'll be paying $1k per child per month for that. We are likely saving more towards retirement and savings in general, but that doesn't really change our current life, you know?
*We were actually just talking NYC real estate with a friend over the weekend who lives in Park Slope. He said if he wants to buy something that's similar to his current apartment, it would be $850k-$1.2 million, depending on finishes, etc. His brother lives in a community in NNJ and has at least 3 times as much space for less! This friend really wants to keep living in Brooklyn, though, so they will probably move to Park Slope South, which is cheaper and maybe like 20 blocks away when their kids are a few years older. So again, it's a lifestyle choice, but it's also crazy that people with this income (more than ours) are struggling just to buy a 2 bedroom condo/co-op.
Oh! And there was this Princeton study a year or two ago that said that people basically need $75k. After that, you might be a little more secure, but not much happier. $75k meets the basic needs and/or perceived needs (like one vacation a year) of the vast majority of Americans. So I don't want to discount people who make $30k/year and could technically be considered middle class but are really struggling with money, of course. But $75k? Not THAT much different than $150k, even though it is literally twice as much money.
Look, this is ridiculous. You can't honestly believe this, right?
$75k DOES NOT EQUAL $150k. I don't give a great goddamn what the Princeton study says about happiness, because that is not what we're discussing here. (Although I would honestly like to see you live on half of your income, and see how happy you are.) The plumber's lifestyle is not your lifestyle. Your immediate dismissal of retirement and savings illustrates just how deeply short-sighted your perspective is here. Because for the plumber, life is lived pretty much on the edge of catastrophe with no savings in the bank and no retirement savings. One medical nightmare, and he's completely bankrupt. And his assets, I dare say, are worth a shitload less than yours. Whereas you have savings, a cushion, retirement to look forward to; and he's looking at not being able to retire until he's dead.
I cannot even describe how fucking insulting your weird insistence on being "just like a plumber" is. You're not just like a plumber. You're a lot better off than the plumber, and the plumber would probably laugh his ass off if he heard this theory -- and then firebomb your fucking mailbox. lol.
I've lived on less than 1/5th of my current HHI before, thanks. So yeah, I know what it's like. It would be well under middle class for both my current county and the HCOL county I used to live in.
And like I said, I have a similar house to my neighbor, obviously, so our assets are... uh, similar in that case. Due to shitty choices like being in grad school ($$$$) until our late 20s, my husband and I actually don't have that many more assets than our house.
There are wealthy people who live on the edge of catastrophe due to living paycheck to paycheck and middle class people who don't.
I also read an article a few years ago about a couple with nice professional jobs. One was a dentist and one was something else high end. And they made $400k/year, which is approaching the 1%. But they lived paycheck to paycheck because they had two young kids in private school. They lived in a 1 bedroom apartment in Manhattan and couldn't afford something bigger near their offices.
And then, of course, someone posted the article last week about how living in a HCOL area IS a lifestyle choice, and one that people with more money are able to choose to make. Living in the middle of Manhattan is a choice. Private school is a choice.* Paying for your kids to go to college is a choice. A nicer car is a choice, etc. Which I get, but even for people at that income bracket, it's like death by a thousand cuts. Okay, so you get a new job and you make $20k more than you did, so now you're in the 6 figure range! But you might pay slightly more in taxes. And decide to increase your life insurance. And maybe increase your retirement contributions. So you're slightly better off than your friend making $75k, but it doesn't REALLY feel like it from a lifestyle perspective.
I guess that was my point with our friend who's a plumber. We have houses that cost similar amounts. Our kids will go to the same school. They don't pay for childcare, but we'll be paying $1k per child per month for that. We are likely saving more towards retirement and savings in general, but that doesn't really change our current life, you know?
*We were actually just talking NYC real estate with a friend over the weekend who lives in Park Slope. He said if he wants to buy something that's similar to his current apartment, it would be $850k-$1.2 million, depending on finishes, etc. His brother lives in a community in NNJ and has at least 3 times as much space for less! This friend really wants to keep living in Brooklyn, though, so they will probably move to Park Slope South, which is cheaper and maybe like 20 blocks away when their kids are a few years older. So again, it's a lifestyle choice, but it's also crazy that people with this income (more than ours) are struggling just to buy a 2 bedroom condo/co-op.
Oh! And there was this Princeton study a year or two ago that said that people basically need $75k. After that, you might be a little more secure, but not much happier. $75k meets the basic needs and/or perceived needs (like one vacation a year) of the vast majority of Americans. So I don't want to discount people who make $30k/year and could technically be considered middle class but are really struggling with money, of course. But $75k? Not THAT much different than $150k, even though it is literally twice as much money.
Look, this is ridiculous. You can't honestly believe this, right?
$75k DOES NOT EQUAL $150k. I don't give a great goddamn what the Princeton study says about happiness, because that is not what we're discussing here. (Although I would honestly like to see you live on half of your income, and see how happy you are.) The plumber's lifestyle is not your lifestyle. Your immediate dismissal of retirement and savings illustrates just how deeply short-sighted your perspective is here. Because for the plumber, life is lived pretty much on the edge of catastrophe with no savings in the bank and no retirement savings. One medical nightmare, and he's completely bankrupt. And his assets, I dare say, are worth a shitload less than yours. Whereas you have savings, a cushion, retirement to look forward to; and he's looking at not being able to retire until he's dead.
I cannot even describe how fucking insulting your weird insistence on being "just like a plumber" is. You're not just like a plumber. You're a lot better off than the plumber, and the plumber would probably laugh his ass off if he heard this theory -- and then firebomb your fucking mailbox. lol.
To the way above bolded - those people don't live "paycheck to paycheck" by a fucking long shot. They are choosing to spend their money in a very disproportionate way. That's their choice, but it's fucking pitiful for a couple making $400K to cry poor.
"Paycheck to paycheck" is buying toilet paper with change from under the seat of your car on Thursday because you get paid on Friday. It's buying, BY NECESSITY, just enough food to get from Friday to Thursday without (hopefully) going hungry. It's hoping you can pay the bills you absolutely have to that week from your paycheck and still have enough money for gas to get to work. And it certainly isn't "maxing out retirement and savings."
If your HHI is $400K and you have to use under-car-seat-change for toilet paper on a Thursday, you are doing it wrong.