domestic violence in gay relationships

[ijack]

I was watching a little blurb on CNN about Emma Watson's speech and how you go about convincing people that women aren't less than men and it got me thinking about DV in gay relationships. Admittedly I haven't done any research on this and my thoughts are probably really rambley, but are there less instances of DV in same sex relationships because you have 2 people of the same sex? I mean at least then you don't have the automatic "women are less than men" that some people believe. Do you think that this plays an issue at all in domestic violence and abusive relationships (do they call emotional abuse "domestic violence"?)?

[gretchenindisguise]

Domestic violence happens in every kind of relationship, gay ones as well. I can pull up some articles if you want.

[ijack]

I'd love to read up on it. Does it happen any less in same sex relationships?

[Scout'sHonor]

This is purely from gossip, but I thought this was reason Johnny Weir is divorcing.

[heyjude]

I thought DV was very high in same sex male relationships?

[sugarglider]

There are often still gender roles within same-sex relationships, so I doubt there's a significant difference.

[heyjude]

Sept 22, 2014 14:00:39 GMT -5 AutumnRose25 said:

DV/emotional abuse doesn't only happen to women.

I think it's time to stop focusing on it as a "women vs. men" issue and address it for what it is, and EVERYONE issue.

I disagree. It can happen to men too but mostly it happens to women. I just read some article where adding a "men get hurt too" argument muddies the reality of the problem.

[ijack]

Sept 22, 2014 14:00:39 GMT -5 AutumnRose25 said:

DV/emotional abuse doesn't only happen to women.

I think it's time to stop focusing on it as a "women vs. men" issue and address it for what it is, and EVERYONE issue.

I never said it only happened to women. My mind just wandered from the issue that people think women are less than men and some DV happens because a man wants to exhibit power over someone else.

[heyjude]

Sept 22, 2014 14:00:39 GMT -5 AutumnRose25 said:

DV/emotional abuse doesn't only happen to women.

I think it's time to stop focusing on it as a "women vs. men" issue and address it for what it is, and EVERYONE issue.

Here:
www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/09/11/ray_rice_and_janay_rice_do_not_share_the_blame_at_all.html



THE XX FACTOR
WHAT WOMEN REALLY THINK
SEPT. 11 2014 4:13 PM
Ray Rice Defenders Have Found Their Argument: He’s a Victim Too
By Amanda Marcotte

Women sometimes hit. But domestic violence is almost entirely perpetrated by men.
Photo by Ronald Martinez/Getty Images

The release of the video of Ray Rice knocking out his then-girlfriend Janay Palmer in an elevator was notable mainly because it decimated all attempts by the NFL, the Ravens, and Ray Rice apologists to argue that Palmer and Rice shared the blame. But some are bravely forging ahead, pushing the claim that men are the real victims here and suggesting there's no reason to think there's any sort of gendered component to domestic violence.


AMANDA MARCOTTE
Amanda Marcotte is a Brooklyn-based writer and DoubleX contributor. She also writes regularly for the Daily Beast, AlterNet, and USA Today. Follow her on Twitter.
"Some might even say, watching that video, that Ray Rice is the bigger victim of domestic violence here," A.J. Delgado, a National Review writer, said on Sean Hannity's radio show earlier this week, even though Hannity—usually a dependable anti-feminist—pointed out, mere moments before, that Rice could have killed Palmer with that blow to the head.

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On Hannity's Fox News TV show, contributor Tamara Holder also pushed the line that Ray Rice is the real victim here. "I think it’s interesting that the anti-testicular police are coming out and just taking this guy’s balls and ripping them off and not paying attention to the fact that there is a family here,” she argued. “That there were decisions to be made behind closed doors. That also, Miss Rice, formerly Miss Palmer, she played a role in it."

On another Fox News show, Outnumbered, male guest David Webb also flirted with drawing a false equivalence. "Violence, frankly, between men and women shouldn't happen in either direction," he said. "Not everyone in the NFL, there's a lot of good guys in the NFL. Most of them don't go out and beat their wives—or, frankly, to the wives out there or girlfriends, don't hit your husbands." When host Kennedy pointed out that most victims of domestic violence are women, Webb insisted on talking about it as if it was a gender-neutral topic.

The reason Ray Rice nearly got away with a light punishment in the first place is because he drew this same false equivalence between the teeny swat Palmer tossed at him during their fight and the knockout punch he gave her in the elevator. It is true that plenty of women hit men. But, as this situation has demonstrated, there's a real problem with simply counting up the times people touch each other in anger, and calling it even. No one should hit anyone, but we shouldn't let that understanding obscure the massive difference between a smaller, weaker person pushing a bigger, stronger person during an argument and the systemic campaign of abuse and control that so often marks male violence against women.

The National Institute of Justice has an excellent one-pager explaining the difference. While "National Family Violence Survey (NFVS) found nearly equal rates of assault" the site reads, "collecting various types of counts from men and women does not yield an accurate understanding of battering and serious injury occurring from intimate partner violence." Focusing on the strict number of pushes and swats "does not measure control, coercion, or the motives for conflict tactics; it also leaves out sexual assault and violence by ex-spouses or partners and does not determine who initiated the violence."

If you take a more holistic approach, it becomes crystal clear that domestic violence is very much a male problem. "A review of the research found that violence is instrumental in maintaining control and that more than 90 percent of 'systematic, persistent, and injurious' violence is perpetrated by men," the National Institute of Justice concludes.

On Thursday's episode of Slate’s The Gist, former prosecutor Christopher Mallios of AEquitas, a prosecutor's resource on violence against women, explained to host Mike Pesca how common it is for victims of domestic violence to hit or push in ways that get recorded by crime statistics, but should not be understood in the same way as serious domestic violence. "Many victims of domestic violence use violence against their abuser to either fight back, retaliate, protect themselves, sometimes in anticipation of violence when they know what’s coming because of a certain look or the use of certain words," he argued. "They immediately start getting into a defensive mode and actually use violence themselves."

It’s worth listening to the whole interview, but here’s one especially relevant clip:


Asked by Pesca why both Rice and Palmer were charged in the incident, Mallios explained:

We always caution police officers not to make dual arrests. It’s a big mistake, because it’s their job to determine who is the predominant aggressor. And that predominant aggressor analysis is so important for the first responders to do. It’s difficult to do after the fact, it’s difficult for prosecutors to do. But if someone is the victim of a crime, if someone’s a victim of battering, ongoing, systematic abuse and control, and now they’re beaten again and they use violence against their abuser, and they are turned into a defendant in a criminal case, that’s almost like using the criminal justice system to re-victimize that victim. It should never happen.
But it does, and perhaps part of why it does is because of this belief that all hitting is the same. We know from the Janay Palmer/Ray Rice incident that it is not. She swats at him while trying to walk away. He follows her, beats her down, acts shockingly cold-blooded as he man-handles her unconscious body and ignores her distressed crying when she comes to. There's just no equivalence there, unless you're a commentator actively trying to distract people from the realities of domestic violence.

Because of this vast gulf in male and female experiences of domestic violence, unsurprisingly the impact also varies dramatically. On Tuesday, Catherine Cloutier of the Boston Globe published an examination of how much more seriously women's lives are impacted by intimate partner violence. The CDC surveyed around 14,000 people to determine the impact of domestic violence on their lives. Men and women were somewhat similar in rates of having endured some kind of assault, at 27.5 percent for men and 29.7 percent for women. But looking beyond counting individual touches, a different picture emerges. Twenty-four percent of female victims report feeling fearful, compared to 7 percent of men. One in five female victims suffer from PTSD symptoms, whereas only 1 in 20 male victims do. Only 3 percent of male victims suffer physical injury, but over 13 percent of female victims do. Twice as many female victims as male victims missed work because of domestic violence.

The disparity is likely the result of male abuse simply being way more violent and chronic than female abuse. Asking people if they've been hit once is relevant, of course, but in measuring the realities of domestic violence, the more important question is if you're being hit frequently, being terrorized by violence on a regular basis, being stalked and controlled, or being threatened with your life if you try to leave. Yes, no one should hit anyone else. But that statement is the beginning of the conversation about the problem of domestic violence, not the end of it.

[wawa]

IME, DV in gay relationships is often muddier because you don't have a clear physical power imbalance a lot of the time. sometimes you do obviously, but it's less of a given than in a hetero relationship.

Like if they've both been the aggressor in the past and they both give as good as they get when there is an incidence of violence...then what do you do with that? Not that it's not wrong - obviously - just muddy.

[gretchenindisguise]

A few quick resources:

hr.umich.edu/stopabuse/about/same-sex.html

hwcstan.squarespace.com/lgbt/2010/5/28/ten-myths-regarding-domestic-violence-in-same-sex-relationsh.html

[heyjude]

Sept 22, 2014 14:10:01 GMT -5 AutumnRose25 said:

Sept 22, 2014 14:03:33 GMT -5 heyjude said:

I disagree. It can happen to men too but mostly it happens to women. I just read some article where adding a "men get hurt too" argument muddies the reality of the problem.

Men are less likely to be honest about or report it because of the stigma that it makes them 'weak' or is something that 'happens to women'.

I think discounting that it can and does happen to anyone, regardless of sex devalues many people's experiences and does not truly address the full issue.

No one is discounting that anyone can be a victim. But waving your hands and calling it an "everyone issue" and ignoring the gender aspect of it, in your words, "does not truly address the full issue" either.

[heyjude]

Sept 22, 2014 14:10:01 GMT -5 AutumnRose25 said:

Sept 22, 2014 14:03:33 GMT -5 heyjude said:

I disagree. It can happen to men too but mostly it happens to women. I just read some article where adding a "men get hurt too" argument muddies the reality of the problem.

Men are less likely to be honest about or report it because of the stigma that it makes them 'weak' or is something that 'happens to women'.

I think discounting that it can and does happen to anyone, regardless of sex devalues many people's experiences and does not truly address the full issue.

eta- and come on!There is a huge difference between people trying to excuse Rice's behavior or make him the victim and acknowledging that it is a situation that is faced by many people regardless of sex. Surely you can separate the idiots in that article from real life?

You didn't read the whole article.


Eta: or maybe you only read the headline and missed this:

www.nij.gov/topics/crime/intimate-partner-violence/Pages/measuring.aspx

[gretchenindisguise]

And I know it's wiki - but it actually has good information.

I think when people think of domestic violence, they think of intimate terrorism. It's more of the classic type of DV, but what newer research has shown is that it's less common than previously thought (which is thought to be because the research was being primarily done through domestic violence shelters, which have unnaturally higher incidences of this type of dv). Situational couple violence is actually the most common, and it's perpetrated fairly equally between men and women.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intimate_partner_violence

[heyjude]

Sept 22, 2014 14:19:19 GMT -5 gretchenindisguise said:

And I know it's wiki - but it actually has good information.

I think when people think of domestic violence, they think of intimate terrorism. It's more of the classic type of DV, but what newer research has shown is that it's less common than previously thought (which is thought to be because the research was being primarily done through domestic violence shelters, which have unnaturally higher incidences of this type of dv). Situational couple violence is actually the most common, and it's perpetrated fairly equally between men and women.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intimate_partner_violence

Ha. Well it's not wiki, but it is the justice dept.

www.nij.gov/topics/crime/intimate-partner-violence/Pages/measuring.aspx

[gretchenindisguise]

Sept 22, 2014 14:21:28 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Sept 22, 2014 14:19:19 GMT -5 gretchenindisguise said:

And I know it's wiki - but it actually has good information.

I think when people think of domestic violence, they think of intimate terrorism. It's more of the classic type of DV, but what newer research has shown is that it's less common than previously thought (which is thought to be because the research was being primarily done through domestic violence shelters, which have unnaturally higher incidences of this type of dv). Situational couple violence is actually the most common, and it's perpetrated fairly equally between men and women.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intimate_partner_violence

Ha. Well it's not wiki, but it is the justice dept.

www.nij.gov/topics/crime/intimate-partner-violence/Pages/measuring.aspx

We don't disagree.

With the exception that I think the data in your link is focused on the intimate terrorism type of DV (which I hope people aren't seeing me as minimizing) and that there are other types of DV at play that have very different characteristics.

Here's a link to a book that you can read the intro pages on from google books:
books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=alLur9raDCwC&oi=fnd&pg=PP1&dq=intimate+terrorism+situational+couple+violence&ots=ou4jti-F87&sig=i2gxI_vhMSOPE4IMy7wOF8EboIY#v=onepage&q=intimate%20terrorism%20situational%20couple%20violence&f=false

[heyjude]

Sept 22, 2014 14:31:49 GMT -5 gretchenindisguise said:

Sept 22, 2014 14:21:28 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Ha. Well it's not wiki, but it is the justice dept.

www.nij.gov/topics/crime/intimate-partner-violence/Pages/measuring.aspx

We don't disagree.

With the exception that I think the data in your link is focused on the intimate terrorism type of DV (which I hope people aren't seeing me as minimizing) and that there are other types of DV at play that have very different characteristics.

Here's a link to a book that you can read the intro pages on from google books:
books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=alLur9raDCwC&oi=fnd&pg=PP1&dq=intimate+terrorism+situational+couple+violence&ots=ou4jti-F87&sig=i2gxI_vhMSOPE4IMy7wOF8EboIY#v=onepage&q=intimate%20terrorism%20situational%20couple%20violence&f=false

Yes there are different types but the poster above wants to treat it all the same because men and women are victimized equally. Which is absolutely false.

[pixy0stix]

On this board, full of women, I think it's ok to talk about it as a man/woman issue. We're all smart and don't need to be reminded every.single.time. that it's not only a man/woman issue. Trust, you're not the first person to roll up with that. Nor can ANY article be posted without someone raising the flag in the comments section. But you know what? I can care about a whole range and shades of nuance to a problem without being shamed for not bringing up every single facet of a huge problem.

[gretchenindisguise]

And a good recent article discussing the different types and issues with researching the topic:

www.personal.psu.edu/mpj/2014%20VAW%20Johnson%20Leone%20Xu.pdf

[heyjude]

It's like coming into a Ferguson thread with a random article of a white person getting shot by cops as a way to, I guess, negate the problem of cops shooting up black kids, and then saying "this isn't a racial problem; it's an everyone problem!!" Yes. Okay. Go away.

[gretchenindisguise]

And the reason I'm pointing out the difference in types is because I think it really behooves the conversation to be specific when discussing the topic. The more specific people can be when referencing it, the better, because they are such different beasts.

[heyjude]

Sept 22, 2014 14:46:07 GMT -5 AutumnRose25 said:

Sept 22, 2014 14:38:52 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Yes there are different types but the poster above wants to treat it all the same because men and women are victimized equally. Which is absolutely false.

When did I say they are victimized equally? At least stick to what I actually said.

Now you are just being cagey.

[pixy0stix]

Sept 22, 2014 14:49:56 GMT -5 gretchenindisguise said:

And the reason I'm pointing out the difference in types is because I think it really behooves the conversation to be specific when discussing the topic. The more specific people can be when referencing it, the better, because they are such different beasts.

I think I can speak for hj in that we don't have an issue with your references.

[gretchenindisguise]

Sept 22, 2014 14:46:57 GMT -5 heyjude said:

It's like coming into a Ferguson thread with a random article of a white person getting shot by cops as a way to, I guess, negate the problem of cops shooting up black kids, and then saying "this isn't a racial problem; it's an everyone problem!!" Yes. Okay. Go away.

Right, and if you said, "you know - what we're really focusing on here is the intimate terrorism type of dv, not situational couple violence. I know both exist, but they're different. If you want to talk about situational couple violence, we can talk about that in a different thread" - you'd be all good. They are different. But both exist.

[heyjude]

Sept 22, 2014 14:57:30 GMT -5 AutumnRose25 said:

Sept 22, 2014 14:46:57 GMT -5 heyjude said:

It's like coming into a Ferguson thread with a random article of a white person getting shot by cops as a way to, I guess, negate the problem of cops shooting up black kids, and then saying "this isn't a racial problem; it's an everyone problem!!" Yes. Okay. Go away.

Oh FFS.

The OP was bringing up DV in same-sex relationships, of which many are men, no?

So unless we are only talking about lesbian couples, I don't think framing the issue to include both male and female victims is irrelevant.

There is a ton of literature about DV between male couples, and it is a problem that many DV discussions exclude these couples because it tends to be framed as a problem within heterosexual couples with female victims only for the most part.

My commentary wasn't referring to the OP. It was referring to your comment:

Sept 22, 2014 14:00:39 GMT -5 AutumnRose25 said:

I think it's time to stop focusing on it as a "women vs. men" issue and address it for what it is, and EVERYONE issue.

Which I don't agree that approach. And neither does the DOJ.

[sandsonik]

Sept 22, 2014 14:10:01 GMT -5 AutumnRose25 said:

Sept 22, 2014 14:03:33 GMT -5 heyjude said:

I disagree. It can happen to men too but mostly it happens to women. I just read some article where adding a "men get hurt too" argument muddies the reality of the problem.

Men are less likely to be honest about or report it because of the stigma that it makes them 'weak' or is something that 'happens to women'.

I think discounting that it can and does happen to anyone, regardless of sex devalues many people's experiences and does not truly address the full issue.

eta- and come on!There is a huge difference between people trying to excuse Rice's behavior or make him the victim and acknowledging that it is a situation that is faced by many people regardless of sex. Surely you can separate the idiots in that article from real life?

I don't really see a need to classify domestic violence separately from "regular" violence.  It seems to suggest it's lesser or should be dealt with differently.

IMO, and obviously I'm not a lawyer, assault is assault and should be charged as such.  And if the evidence is there, the charges shouldn't be dropped if the aggrieved party decides not to pursue it, and that should be the case for every sort of crime, IMO.  Deciding to let someone off the hook does no favors for future victims, whether it be assault, robbery or fraud.

That's how it will be when I'm queen!

[Deleted]

Sept 22, 2014 22:32:06 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

Sept 22, 2014 14:10:01 GMT -5 AutumnRose25 said:

Men are less likely to be honest about or report it because of the stigma that it makes them 'weak' or is something that 'happens to women'.

I think discounting that it can and does happen to anyone, regardless of sex devalues many people's experiences and does not truly address the full issue.

eta- and come on!There is a huge difference between people trying to excuse Rice's behavior or make him the victim and acknowledging that it is a situation that is faced by many people regardless of sex. Surely you can separate the idiots in that article from real life?

I don't really see a need to classify domestic violence separately from "regular" violence.  It seems to suggest it's lesser or should be dealt with differently.

IMO, and obviously I'm not a lawyer, assault is assault and should be charged as such.  And if the evidence is there, the charges shouldn't be dropped if the aggrieved party decides not to pursue it, and that should be the case for every sort of crime, IMO.  Deciding to let someone off the hook does no favors for future victims, whether it be assault, robbery or fraud.

That's how it will be when I'm queen!

And in your world, victims of domestic violence will continued to be victimized over and over again because your assault is assault approach would have victims brought into court and treated the same as their abusive partner.

As to the topic at hand, absolutely people in gay relationships can find themselves in abusive relationships. The same cycle is present often with the added isolation that can come along with being gay. Some have been abandoned by their families, their friends, can feel like outsiders to those who know them and end up in relationships with an unequal power balance that has nothing to do with their gender. 

And to the secondary topic, I am totally with posters who say that while it can happen to men, especially men in gay relationships, it is by and large a female problem. Just like rape, by and large is a female problem. We absolutely need resources for both genders but I think in terms of a problem that's fed by social and cultural expectations as well as ignored and sometimes even condoned, that's an overwhelmingly female issue. I don't think it's harmful to say so nor does doing so discount male victims.