The 80's were not a good time. It's easy to get nostalgic and shit over Skip Its and 'wholesome' sitcoms but no lol.
The 80's were also the era where my mama told people her children were Hispanic, not white because people liked that better than thinking black ladies were laying down with white men so, yeah
That's what my brothers' mama used to say. Everyone just presumed we didn't belong to my father or were adopted.
Is that true? The stuff I've read about fundamental Christian homeschoolers and the Homeschool Legal Defense Association has lead me to believe that you can deny them entry and not speak with no consequece.
Sure you can. The same way you can refuse to show your cop ID or let them search your car without a warrant. Technically, you could do these things. Technically, you shouldn't be penalized. But how that goes for you depends on similar factors to how it goes for people at a routine traffic stop. Except CPS investigators don't shoot people.
From what I understand, even from HSLDA (my mom used to be a member), you can deny them entry at that point. But eventually, they will be visiting. You merely deny them the first instance so you can have time to speak to a lawyer and arrange the visit on your terms and be prepared for what to say.
If CPS ever comes to my door wanting to see my house or talk to my kid, I'm telling them to come back with a warrant (which they can't get). I hate that people think they have to cooperate. I've had clients take drug screens, turn over medical records, and do all kinds of stuff just because a CPS case manager told them to and they think they have to do anything asked. Hellll, no.
CPS has a very high burden of proof to take a kid from the home. It's not as high as a criminal case (beyond a reasonable doubt), but it's pretty darn close (clear and convincing evidence). They have to show by clear and convincing evidence that there is a lack of proper parental care and control AND that they made efforts to prevent removing a kid from the home AND that the child can't be protected while keeping a child in the home. CPS often acts like bullies and try to give the impression that they are so powerful, but they are not. They can't just show up at your door and go through your drawers and take your kids over something stupid. And when they try to do something nuts (because there are plenty of 22 year old idealistic case managers with no real life experience who use their middle class standards as a ruler by which everyone should live by), their lawyers reign them in because they can lose federal funding by not adhering to these strict federal requirements.
In some situations, it may be quicker and easier to just cooperate to clear things up, but if CPS comes to a person all bent out of shape over something stupid and 100% unwarranted, they certainly can tell them to F off.
I do also wonder if there is more to the story here. I've been involved in a number of cases and situations where disgruntled parents went to the media or posted all kinds of accusations against CPS, judges, and CPS lawyers on blogs, flyers, etc. The thing that sucks is the information in a CPS investigation is confidential, so these people have mud slung at them and have to remain silent. When I've read some of the crazy things parents have publicized on cases I've been involved in, I have soooo wanted to be able to air the other side of the story, because the parents are leaving out some huge facts that were genuine causes of concern. So I always take stories from a parent's perspective with a grain of salt, knowing there is another side to the story.
I don't let my daughter play alone outside in the front. Just the back yard. I am more ok with it at my mom's house because it is a quiter culdesac.
She was just getting to the age where our neighbor and she would play across our front yards (ages 7 and 8) and the neighbors moved, dammit.
I wouldn't call CPA on someone, unless it is after dark and their kid looks like he or she has no plans to return home. Then I would be worried.
Eta I still wouldn't call CPs before just encouraging the kid to go home unless it became a regular event. And THEN I would express concern directly to the neighbor first and see if there is anything sketchy going on like the parent is drunk or high or something. If they aren't, then I would just glance out at the kid now and then...
This is soooo incredibly not true (and I'm an attorney who spent two years representing CPS and six years representing parents who had kids removed by CPS).
But CPS sure as shit likes to make it seem as if they will though. They can be very heavy handed with the intimidation when you show up. There's a lot of "well, this can be over quickly if you let us come in," or "you can let us in now or later because we'll be back," and my favorite, "We can remove your children from the home for the night if necessary."
And by necessary, they mean don't comply with what they are asking. It's up to you to decide if what they're asking is reasonable. Do you want to test them? I mean you're a lawyer, you know what they can or cannot do. The average person whose doorstep they show up on does not.
Yes, this is definitely all true. You posted this when I was typing up my long rant. I get fired up about this. I HATED representing CPS. Absolutely hated. They think they have so much power, and they give off that impression to the families they contact and work with, when in reality there are checks and balances in place to make sure they do not have too much power. But people typically don't realize this - especially the population that CPS most often investigates (low income people who often are not very educated).
Is that true? The stuff I've read about fundamental Christian homeschoolers and the Homeschool Legal Defense Association has lead me to believe that you can deny them entry and not speak with no consequece.
This is soooo incredibly not true (and I'm an attorney who spent two years representing CPS and six years representing parents who had kids removed by CPS).
This is soooo incredibly not true (and I'm an attorney who spent two years representing CPS and six years representing parents who had kids removed by CPS).
It was what was told to my friends by the cops that accompanied the CPS person. Might not be true, but the cops even searched her underwear drawers when her kid had a head injury from daycare. The other time was a friend who had a messy divorce and a DH who kept calling CPS and cops claiming his x was wasted with kids around, so a lot of random cop visits asking if she would takes voluntary breathalyzer in her own house. Both times their attrnys advised to just do anything CPS and cops asked. But I was not present either time.
It's different when cops are involved. Usually they are not. Typically, CPS gets a report from someone like a neighbor or teacher, and it's something like I noticed a bruise on Johnny, or he always shows up to school hungry and in dirty clothes, or I saw him playing in the yard unsupervised. If the report is something of concern, then a social worker will investigate. If a report is REALLY serious, like dad is beating the shit out of this four year old, or I saw terrible scald marks on this child, or little Suzie told me her dad is having sex with her, then these are so serious they will rise to the level of potential criminal charges. Then CPS and law enforcement may investigate together. Law enforcement can try to get a warrant to search a house, so if you turn them away, they may be able to come back with a warrant. CPS can't get search warrants (at least not in my state, and I'd be shocked if they could in others).
The divorced/single mom stories are insane. People are such assholes. What's crazy to me is that my mom and dad got divorced in the 80s, and we grew up in a very, very Catholic community (everyone I knew was Catholic for the most part). Anyway, nothing like that ever happened, and no one ever made us feel like we were less nor were we (or my mom) excluded. You'd think you'd get some of that from Catholics, considering. It was totally NBD, even though I was one of the very few in my k-8 school with divorced parents. There were more when I was in high school, because it was a bigger school.
This whole story is insane, too. People are such jackholes. A lot of the kids in our neighborhood play outside with older siblings or without adult supervision. At times, it really annoys me because things get out of hand and no one is disciplining the kids who are out of control. Most of the kids are old enough to be outside on our cul de sac alone, though. A few years ago, I think they weren't, but people let them anyway. I just silently judged, though, and didn't call the cops...despite fantasizing about doing so especially when the kids were being uber jerks.
<abbr>This is why I'm very thankful for HSLDA. I would have never known that I could deny entry to CPS until they told me in the literature they provided upon membership. They advise that you shut the door on them and call them for legal advice before doing anything.
This is something I worry about daily as a homeschooler. I have four kids age seven and under who are often out and about on school days and yes *GASP* often playing in the yard by themselves while I watch them from the kitchen window. The thought that some nosy Nellie could call the police and send a truancy officer to my doorstep or CPS to force my children to undergo some interrogation that implies their parents are doing something wrong makes me irate. People need to mind their own business. </abbr>
Sure you can. The same way you can refuse to show your cop ID or let them search your car without a warrant. Technically, you could do these things. Technically, you shouldn't be penalized. But how that goes for you depends on similar factors to how it goes for people at a routine traffic stop. Except CPS investigators don't shoot people.
From what I understand, even from HSLDA (my mom used to be a member), you can deny them entry at that point. But eventually, they will be visiting. You merely deny them the first instance so you can have time to speak to a lawyer and arrange the visit on your terms and be prepared for what to say.
If CPS ever comes to my door wanting to see my house or talk to my kid, I'm telling them to come back with a warrant (which they can't get). I hate that people think they have to cooperate. I've had clients take drug screens, turn over medical records, and do all kinds of stuff just because a CPS case manager told them to and they think they have to do anything asked. Hellll, no.
CPS has a very high burden of proof to take a kid from the home. It's not as high as a criminal case (beyond a reasonable doubt), but it's pretty darn close (clear and convincing evidence). They have to show by clear and convincing evidence that there is a lack of proper parental care and control AND that they made efforts to prevent removing a kid from the home AND that the child can't be protected while keeping a child in the home. CPS often acts like bullies and try to give the impression that they are so powerful, but they are not. They can't just show up at your door and go through your drawers and take your kids over something stupid. And when they try to do something nuts (because there are plenty of 22 year old idealistic case managers with no real life experience who use their middle class standards as a ruler by which everyone should live by), their lawyers reign them in because they can lose federal funding by not adhering to these strict federal requirements.
In some situations, it may be quicker and easier to just cooperate to clear things up, but if CPS comes to a person all bent out of shape over something stupid and 100% unwarranted, they certainly can tell them to F off.
I do also wonder if there is more to the story here. I've been involved in a number of cases and situations where disgruntled parents went to the media or posted all kinds of accusations against CPS, judges, and CPS lawyers on blogs, flyers, etc. The thing that sucks is the information in a CPS investigation is confidential, so these people have mud slung at them and have to remain silent. When I've read some of the crazy things parents have publicized on cases I've been involved in, I have soooo wanted to be able to air the other side of the story, because the parents are leaving out some huge facts that were genuine causes of concern. So I always take stories from a parent's perspective with a grain of salt, knowing there is another side to the story.
Not all CPS workers are bullies. I was a CPS worker for 10 years.I never checked in peoples's drawers or went through their stuff. I also always waited to be invited in, unless it was a police matter and they accompanied me.
My girls were placed with me by CPS. I let them play outside with friends, in the street, and in the field across the street from our house. They're pretty free-ranging within a two block area. I keep an eye on them (intermittently) and they get yelled at if I have to go hunting for them because they're not at the friend's house where they're supposed to be, but they're outside playing with each other or with friends. If one comes home without the other, there is major trouble.
While we were dealing with a (great) CPS worker, GAL and attorney, they only visited the house generally with advance notice, only checked what ws open and visible and were generally very respectful of the girls' mother's (my daughter's) household.
Even dealing with CPS for the years that I did, I have fears of getting calls or being visited by them. But I refuse to keep the girls under lock-and-key because of it. That's no way to raise a child.
Given the stats on abused children in this country, they have better things to do. Also, there's something developmentally important about kids learning to play independently (with some level of parental monitoring, of course).
YES!
I let my kids (ages 5.5 and 3.5) play outside alone. I am inside, I can hear them and I check on them. CPS in Philadelphia has more important things to investigate than my kids learning some independence and how to take appropriate "risks".
"Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.”
Considering my 10 year old is outside right now and I'm not sure where, I don't have much good to add. Are they fucking kidding?!? That neighbor would be hearing it from me.
I wouldn't let my kid play outside in the front alone at six without supervision. And if I saw a six year old outside alone with no one around I would sure as shit ask him if he was ok. I wouldn't call CPS (most likely) but I would think the parents were dumbasses.
Asking if the kid is OK = within the normal bounds of concern.
Calling CPS = attention whore level of snatchiness when there seems to be no other evidence that said child is neglected or abused.
Taking the child and bringing him back to his home = borderline kidnapping.
If everything went down exactly like this woman says it did, then the only thing I question is this kid's mom not teaching him stranger danger and that if someone he doesn't know approaches him, he needs to run like hell all the way home.
<abbr>This is why I'm very thankful for HSLDA. I would have never known that I could deny entry to CPS until they told me in the literature they provided upon membership. They advise that you shut the door on them and call them for legal advice before doing anything.
This is something I worry about daily as a homeschooler. I have four kids age seven and under who are often out and about on school days and yes *GASP* often playing in the yard by themselves while I watch them from the kitchen window. The thought that some nosy Nellie could call the police and send a truancy officer to my doorstep or CPS to force my children to undergo some interrogation that implies their parents are doing something wrong makes me irate. People need to mind their own business. </abbr>
I wouldn't let my kid play outside in the front alone at six without supervision. And if I saw a six year old outside alone with no one around I would sure as shit ask him if he was ok. I wouldn't call CPS (most likely) but I would think the parents were dumbasses.
Seriously? I let my 6 year old ride around the block on her scooter all the time when I'm inside. First and second-graders walk home alone from schools all the time. I never considered myself the really free-range type at all.
What are we afraid of here (general question directed at everyone)? Pedos? Injuries?
Post by cookiemdough on Sept 23, 2014 1:18:51 GMT -5
I am actually more concerned that he went with a stranger. So while I don't have a problem with the mom letting him play, she probably needs to reinforce some rules around it.
Post by mrsukyankee on Sept 23, 2014 2:26:50 GMT -5
We have kids playing all over our neighborhood here in London - on the street kicking the ball, riding bikes. In LONDON. A big scary city. OMG. Call the cops. Seriously, it's one reason we chose this neighborhood - cause kids can play with their friends and no one bitches. (We thought we were going to have kids so it would fit...oh, well). I hate that the healthy and safety from the States is coming over here more and more. I hope this shit doesn't.
<abbr>This is why I'm very thankful for HSLDA. I would have never known that I could deny entry to CPS until they told me in the literature they provided upon membership. They advise that you shut the door on them and call them for legal advice before doing anything.
This is something I worry about daily as a homeschooler. I have four kids age seven and under who are often out and about on school days and yes *GASP* often playing in the yard by themselves while I watch them from the kitchen window. The thought that some nosy Nellie could call the police and send a truancy officer to my doorstep or CPS to force my children to undergo some interrogation that implies their parents are doing something wrong makes me irate. People need to mind their own business. </abbr>
I wouldn't let my kid play outside in the front alone at six without supervision. And if I saw a six year old outside alone with no one around I would sure as shit ask him if he was ok. I wouldn't call CPS (most likely) but I would think the parents were dumbasses.
Seriously? I let my 6 year old ride around the block on her scooter all the time when I'm inside. First and second-graders walk home alone from schools all the time. I never considered myself the really free-range type at all.
What are we afraid of here (general question directed at everyone)? Pedos? Injuries?
I am going to go out on a limb and say some of this is possibly regional? I live in Florida in a relatively safe city and great neighborhood and there is no way in hell my 5 and 3 year olds would play out front alone and won't be for a while. In our locked, fenced in backyard, sure. My inlaws live in a Mayberry like place in PA. Big yards, common woods to explore, not much through traffic and like no crime rate. I can see letting them do this there a bit younger...although not 3! Yes fearful of all of the above
We have no fence. My older kids (5.5 and 3) play in our yard periodically by themselves. I'm always in and out of the house, cleaning out the car, sweeping the front porch, organizing in the front room with the blinds open, etc. It's not like I'm inside sleeping. But they know they'll get in huge trouble if they leave our yard etc. We live in a quiet older neighborhood with small lots. All of the neighbors know us very well. I feel comfortable with this level of supervision. There are plenty of six, seven, eight-year-old kids riding their bikes around our neighborhood and going to the little neighborhood park unaccompanied by adults.
Who are these "helpful" neighbors who are so hysterical over children's safety? They must be old ladies who sit
Nah, my 75 year old neighbors wouldn't care if my kids were playing outside. Unless they saw them running in the street or doing something dangerous.
We live on a very short (4 homes) quiet dead end street. The kids at the very end play in the street all the time in front of their house and I haven't called CPS yet.
In fact, I was over last night to their house. Child left scooter in the road and dad found it. To teach responsibility -- no scooter for a week along with no riding your bike in the road for the week. That's right, punishment is no playing in the street this week.
I feel like if this is the direction the U.S. is going to go, then states need to start making laws as to what age children can be outside by themselves and what distance.
Post by irishbride2 on Sept 24, 2014 4:49:06 GMT -5
I'm I live in FL and kids play outside alone all the time!
The main reason we picked our neighborhood was because of all the kids and the fact that the culture of neighborhood is for all of them to run around together.
Post by EllieArroway on Sept 24, 2014 8:40:22 GMT -5
There are kids running around my neighborhood alone from the time school gets out until dark almost every day. They are all between the ages of maybe 6 and 12. My kids are still too young but they will be doing that soon too. We live in a great neighborhood with quiet streets, sidewalks, a park, etc. We moved here so that our kids could have a neighborhood to roam. I can't imagine someone calling CPS over it. Every house in the neighborhood would be under investigation.
I feel like if this is the direction the U.S. is going to go, then states need to start making laws as to what age children can be outside by themselves and what distance.
In Maryland, children under 8 must be supervised and you need to be 13 to watch children under 8.