What happens when a baby "self soothes"

[rugbywife]

I got to here:

What if they don’t cry because nobody comes, what if they become a SIDS statistic as a result?

And stopped reading. The author can F*ck right off.

[turtlegirl]

Sept 22, 2014 19:04:15 GMT -5 rugbywife said:

I got to here:

What if they don’t cry because nobody comes, what if they become a SIDS statistic as a result?

And stopped reading. The author can F*ck right off.

Yep. The author clearly doesn't know what SIDS means.

Sleep training for lyfe!

[rugbywife]

And let me clarify why that line pisses me off so much…the whole THING with SIDS is that nobody knows why it happens. Her linking self soothing techniques with SIDS is just a fear tactic and is NOT based in any science. LORD KNOWS, if there was any research to suggest it made a significant difference in SIDS cases then there would be literature, research and lots of advisories out on the topic, you know, like bumpers and blankets, etc…

She just wants to take something that every.parent.fears and use it as a tool to make her point. That is irresponsible from a so called 'expert'.

[Deleted]

What if a giant python has slithered into the baby's crib and is slowly squeezing it to death? What if your house is built on an Indian burial mound and the baby has stopped crying because it's possessed? What if an owl came through the window in the night and is carrying the baby to Hogwarts without parental permission?

Better not sleep train.

[winemaker06]

I'm curious to read other portions of the site to see what they think the alternative is.
E.g. If my kid resists sleep and I let them cry for 5 minutes while I go to the bathroom and refill my drink, I'm damaging him?

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do as an alternative. Only let him sleep on me forever, to hell with any of my needs? No thanks, I need sanity too. I'm still very torn on CIO or sleep training in general, but this article is definitely a bit too harsh.

[Brie]

Bitch crazy.

Look, nobody ever talks about the dangers of the opposite. Sleep deprived mom leaves baby in hot car. Sleep deprived mom falls asleep at the wheel. Shaken babies. PPD/PPA/PPP. Babies whose growth and development is negatively impacted from lack of sleep. Etc etc.

At what point does anyone give two fucks about mom's health and well being? Oh right, never, because we turn into perfect martyrs when we have kids. Great.

[rugbywife]

Funny story. We were talking sleep training with the ILs…about how we were going to start at 5months, check in, etc…MIL was all like "What are you talking about? We just put you down G, if you cried, you cried…we slept, you cried, you seem fine now, no?". Lol.

[redheadk]

Sept 22, 2014 19:13:43 GMT -5 tryingtobehappy said:

Yes mentioning SIDS is eye roll worthy. But I could not help think there is some truth in the fact that babies don't know when parents will respond and when they will. So they might not cry when they need something, eg milk or a diaper change.

I know this is a popular debate topic. And I was so over this in old bump days. But it came to haunt me again with my second kid. Haha

We sleep trained and I 100% stand behind my decision. DD was not getting anywhere close to enough sleep a day and it was having serious repercussions on her health.

We did not, however, nightwean until 14 months. Trust, she still cried out in the night when she was hungry or needed something between the time we sleep trained until she started STTN on her own. 

[havarti]

"What if they have vomitted, or slipped down under their blankets? What if they don’t cry because nobody comes, what if they become a SIDS statistic as a result?"

A. Why would there be blankets in the crib?
B. This is why I used a video monitor, so I would know exactly what was going on.
C. At some point in all the reading I did about sleep (maybe it was in Ferber's book?) I read that; at least some of the studies done on children who appeared calm from the outside, but still had elevated levels of cortisol; were done on children who already had sleep issues. (Wish I could remember where I got that from.)
D. My friend who was an adamant bedshare-er is still bedsharing with her three year old who doesn't STTN. Her husband moved out of the bedroom a year ago. I happily bedshared in the beginning, but long term? Nope, not for me.

[ktw]

Sept 22, 2014 19:18:15 GMT -5 @this said:

Sept 22, 2014 19:16:46 GMT -5 Brie said:

Bitch crazy.

Look, nobody ever talks about the dangers of the opposite. Sleep deprived mom leaves baby in hot car. Sleep deprived mom falls asleep at the wheel. Shaken babies. PPD/PPA/PPP. Babies whose growth and development is negatively impacted from lack of sleep. Etc etc.

At what point does anyone give two fucks about mom's health and well being? Oh right, never, because we turn into perfect martyrs when we have kids. Great.

Preach, sisterfriend.

Yes! I refuse to read this BS, but by the time we STed G, my H and I were at our wits end. He missed three important cannot-be-missed days at work and spent our daughter's first Christmas in bed because the combination of not sleeping and commuting 3 hours a day earned him strep throat followed immediately by another virus. He just could not get well without being able to rest. I was run ragged from trying to do all of the wake ups (every 45-90 mins, all night long). 

All 3 of us were so much happier once she was getting the sleep she needed. That's when things really clicked into place and we found our groove as a family. I cannot regret that, no matter how bad her crying made me feel. 

[Deleted]

Dd2 cried longer and harder in her car seat daily than she ever did during her 3 nights of sleep training. Ban car seats! They cause irreparable psychological harm!

[Marmee]

Sept 22, 2014 19:16:46 GMT -5 Brie said:

Bitch crazy.

Look, nobody ever talks about the dangers of the opposite. Sleep deprived mom leaves baby in hot car. Sleep deprived mom falls asleep at the wheel. Shaken babies. PPD/PPA/PPP. Babies whose growth and development is negatively impacted from lack of sleep. Etc etc.

At what point does anyone give two fucks about mom's health and well being? Oh right, never, because we turn into perfect martyrs when we have kids. Great.

Yes, I had to do something because it was very bad having not STTN for 3yrs straight (because I never ST DD1 & she was still waking when I had another baby 2.5yrs later). Then DD4 was missing developmental milestones waking every 1.5hrs at 10mo old. I hate havin to ST & honestly it goes against my instinct but unfortunately my kids do not ever naturally learn to STTN. I had to in order to survive pretty literally & I refuse to feel guilty about it now...just like having inductions pre-full term. Maybe ideally I wouldn't have had to go there but it was in the best interest of us. My babies cried hard & a lot when I ST (between 8-11mo) I wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy. I cannot tell you how lucky people are that have babies that just "fuss" or just magically STTN one day.

[Deleted]

Sept 22, 2014 19:16:46 GMT -5 Brie said:

Bitch crazy.

Look, nobody ever talks about the dangers of the opposite. Sleep deprived mom leaves baby in hot car. Sleep deprived mom falls asleep at the wheel. Shaken babies. PPD/PPA/PPP. Babies whose growth and development is negatively impacted from lack of sleep. Etc etc.

At what point does anyone give two fucks about mom's health and well being? Oh right, never, because we turn into perfect martyrs when we have kids. Great.

Exactly. Well said.

[rugbywife]

Sept 22, 2014 19:32:27 GMT -5 @vicmo said:

The thing I found with sleep training was that ds cried for like 20 minutes for what, 3 nights? It wasn't like I doomed him to a month of 4 hours per night of crying. And he immediately started sleeping in longer stretches - sleep has to be better than lying awake fussing and crying. We were still room sharing so I have a very fucking good idea of how he reacted to the training.

This is my only concern, dd is not stopping the crying for a bit each night, and at naps. But it isn't usually that much. Still, sometimes I worry that we are 'doing it wrong'

[thebreakfastclub]

So I take it no one has pre-ordered her new sleep book?

[ssmjlm]

Sept 22, 2014 19:49:15 GMT -5 rugbywife said:

Sept 22, 2014 19:32:27 GMT -5 @vicmo said:

The thing I found with sleep training was that ds cried for like 20 minutes for what, 3 nights? It wasn't like I doomed him to a month of 4 hours per night of crying. And he immediately started sleeping in longer stretches - sleep has to be better than lying awake fussing and crying. We were still room sharing so I have a very fucking good idea of how he reacted to the training.

This is my only concern, dd is not stopping the crying for a bit each night, and at naps. But it isn't usually that much. Still, sometimes I worry that we are 'doing it wrong'

E cried on and off for MONTHS.  We started ST at 5.5m when we felt comfortable, but it was torture b/c some nights she went down great, others she would cry for upwards of 30 mins.

We didn't attempt naps until 7.5m.  Most books will tell you night and naps aren't connected, so training for one, may not work for another.

Sleep deprivation is real.  I can remember during one rough week telling a younger coworker who was engaged to wait on kids b/c they suck the energy out of you and I felt like I would never sleep again.


ETA: Jinx @vicmo!

[rugbywife]

@vicmo and ssmjlm, never an hour. This evening it was about 30 minutes, last night she didn't cry at all, like was just out like a light.

[Deleted]

Obviously this blog post is all sorts of hysterical and assumes all STers are selfish monsters and that is definitely not true. But on the other hand, there are a lot of parents out there (or grandparents) who believe if a child is waking up at all past 3 months that the child is "manipulative" etc. I think there is some danger in this attitude. Luckily I never had to make any hard STing decisions but I know when B was waking up pretty frequently between months 7-9 he actually did need me to respond to him and letting him CIO would not have been developmentally appropriate for my child.

[water*drop]

Sept 22, 2014 19:26:55 GMT -5 havarti said:

C. At some point in all the reading I did about sleep (maybe it was in Ferber's book?) I read that; at least some of the studies done on children who appeared calm from the outside, but still had elevated levels of cortisol; were done on children who already had sleep issues. (Wish I could remember where I got that from.)

This is correct, at least for the study this crazy lady referenced. I don't know if it's in Ferber's book, but I'm reading the study right now. From their methods section:

"Typically, mothers are referred to the program by their midwives, doctors, or other medical-based practitioners following reported difficulties either with infants' sleep routine and ability to self-settle or expressed concerns regarding infants' feeding and physical growth."

They also acknowledge that this may have skewed their results because the mothers may have tried many methods of sleep training (essentially sending mixed signals to the infant by sometimes responding quickly, sometimes not responding at all, etc) AND say that their study duration wasn't long enough to say that the synchronicity between the mother and infant wouldn't have been restored later (i.e., maybe this is a temporary disruption that isn't really a big deal) AND that there are other things that could have affected cortisol levels in both the mothers and infants. It's more of a "hey, we should look into this kind of stuff" study than a "this is definitely what's happening" study.

[ktw]

Sept 22, 2014 19:49:15 GMT -5 rugbywife said:

Sept 22, 2014 19:32:27 GMT -5 @vicmo said:

The thing I found with sleep training was that ds cried for like 20 minutes for what, 3 nights? It wasn't like I doomed him to a month of 4 hours per night of crying. And he immediately started sleeping in longer stretches - sleep has to be better than lying awake fussing and crying. We were still room sharing so I have a very fucking good idea of how he reacted to the training.

This is my only concern, dd is not stopping the crying for a bit each night, and at naps. But it isn't usually that much. Still, sometimes I worry that we are 'doing it wrong'

My DD is 13.5 months and she still cries every.single.time I put her in her crib. Every nap/night there's the immediate obligatory "look up at mommy with the most pitiful look and tears starting to fall as if to say 'how can you do this to me'" initial cry before I even make it out of her room. How long she cries goes in spurts. The last couple of nights, it was less than 2 minutes (glorious!). Sometimes, she goes for 5 or 10 minutes. If she hits 20 minutes and is still really crying, we usually reassess. If we think it could be teeth or something, we give her medicine, rock her again, and put her back in the crib. Her second round of crying is always short lived, like she understands we mean business and she really needs to go to sleep.

[formerlyllizzyb]

I am not even reading that.

[redheadk]

This lady is like the Megan Heimer of sleep training.

[alexis]

She says that children can't self soothe until their brains are fully developed. Earlier she says that some parts of our brains are developing into our 20s, so I need to soothe my kids to sleep until they're in there 20s? Man... that's rough.

I call BS on her claim that holding and cuddling a child will neccessarily comfort them. DD was a great sleeper until about 8 months old. Then she really started fighting sleep. All of our cuddling and rocking and bouncing and patting just seemed to wind her up more and make her cry harder. We just could not seem to comfort her. Three nights of CIO after a month of that and she was back to being a great sleeper.

[stealthmom]

Sept 22, 2014 19:26:55 GMT -5 havarti said:

"What if they have vomitted, or slipped down under their blankets? What if they don’t cry because nobody comes, what if they become a SIDS statistic as a result?"

A. Why would there be blankets in the crib?
B. This is why I used a video monitor, so I would know exactly what was going on.
C. At some point in all the reading I did about sleep (maybe it was in Ferber's book?) I read that; at least some of the studies done on children who appeared calm from the outside, but still had elevated levels of cortisol; were done on children who already had sleep issues. (Wish I could remember where I got that from.)
D. My friend who was an adamant bedshare-er is still bedsharing with her three year old who doesn't STTN. Her husband moved out of the bedroom a year ago. I happily bedshared in the beginning, but long term? Nope, not for me.

wait. What does your friend bed sharing have to do with anything?

[Deleted]

My DS DID slip under the fitted sheet after we did CIO. He was pinned under there screaming hysterically. I couldn't tell what was going on from the video monitor but I knew the screaming was different & ran in to free him. A baby in true distress will cry for his caregiver even after CIO. DS still cries maaaaaammmmaaaa when he wakes up with boogers.

[iamgrace]

The article is silly.

I am very anti-CIO based on my own experiences, and yes, I guess I do believe the hype about crying for extended periods of time being bad for babies.

Anyway, I tried CIO with Henry. It went on for at least a month. During that month I watched my normally calm, good natured kid come to first dread bedtime, then start screaming through bath. when he started crying through dinner time I said enough. This is not the relationship I want with my kid. It was an absolute nightmare. He is 3 now, sleeps all night in his own bed so we did something right, but CIO doesn't happen in our house.

Again, this was just MY OWN experience.

[Deleted]

What does this lady suggest I do with my baby..ha.
I was just chatting with another GBCN-er last night and my kid is the suck at sleep.
Will go down fine but at 7 months old is up every 2 hours all night.
I'm not anti-CIO but it's not for me. I let the kid cry for 10 minutes while I took a shower the other night and it took an hour to settle him.
In the MOTN he is sometimes hungry, sometimes not.
He wants nothing to do with being rocked or cuddled after the first wake up and that just works him up more.
It's a tossup as where to put him so he'll fall asleep again (back in crib, on the boppy, in the swing).

What does the O Wise One have to say to that?

Either way this article is dumb. Babies are all different. Every parent has a different version of "Do what you gotta do." I don't think CIO causes lasting harm by any means but at the same time I can definitely say it's not for every baby. And the SIDS risk is so off base I can't even.....

[iamgrace]

Sept 23, 2014 7:40:40 GMT -5 @this said:

Sept 23, 2014 5:46:00 GMT -5 iamgrace said:

I am very anti-CIO based on my own experiences, and yes, I guess I do believe the hype about crying for extended periods of time being bad for babies.

Based on what besides your own experience? I mean, for every baby that CIO didn't work for we could come up with just as many, if not more, well-adjusted toddlers/kids who did CIO and are fine.

Do whatever works for you, CIO or don't, but I don't think blanket statements like the above are fair. And this is aside from what Brie said about taking the parents' mental health and well-being into consideration.

well,everyone needs to do what they need to do. CIO made everyone in my house stressed and unhappy, so...

If it works other parents, and I know it does, that's fine.

We worked at it for a month. It never got better, it just continued to get worse.

Crying for extended periods of time can't be good for them. I know it's a flameful opinion.

[karinothing]

I think this woman is ridiculous. That being said, I think that while her points are extreme there is a little bit of sense behind them. I think it is possible for a child to throw up during the CIO period. I think that using a video monitor and/or checking in on the child when they fall asleep is a good practice.

[Brie]

Sept 23, 2014 8:07:52 GMT -5 iamgrace said:

Sept 23, 2014 7:40:40 GMT -5 @this said:

Based on what besides your own experience? I mean, for every baby that CIO didn't work for we could come up with just as many, if not more, well-adjusted toddlers/kids who did CIO and are fine.

Do whatever works for you, CIO or don't, but I don't think blanket statements like the above are fair. And this is aside from what Brie said about taking the parents' mental health and well-being into consideration.

well,everyone needs to do what they need to do. CIO made everyone in my house stressed and unhappy, so...

If it works other parents, and I know it does, that's fine.

We worked at it for a month. It never got better, it just continued to get worse.

Crying for extended periods of time can't be good for them. I know it's a flameful opinion.

Yeah, I think if I'd tried it for a month and it got worse I'd stop too.  But, please know that for a lot of kids, it's not like that and it doesn't really venture into "extended periods" territory.  We had one night of 45 minutes of crying (and we went in to check/reassure him every few minutes), one night of 20 minutes (again, with checks), one night of 5 minutes, and that was it.  I continued to nurse him once MOTN for several months after we sleep trained.