Please don't quote, I'll DD, but I'm losing my mind right now and am hoping to get some advice. I mostly lurk here but I know you all have good thoughts around work related manners.
Here's the situation: I supervise an employee (x) who is about 30 years older than me. We had a rocky start in terms of him resenting me and not responding well to my feedback, but for the past two years we've had what I thought was a very good working relationship. For background, he's married with two kids in college, I've got a 6 year old daughter and am separated from my H, although I haven't talked about it much at work.
Last week X told me he had RSVPd for him and his wife to go to a networking picnic for a professional association and said his wife couldn't come and asked if I would go with him. This is a professional association I had just joined, so I said sure, id come and bring DD (kids were free).
DD and I go to the picnic, we eat, talk a bit to the other people there, she plays on the playground, etc.
X suggests we take DD on a walk around the park; I agree, and off we go.
Then once we get away from people anytime DD turns her head he starts touching me. I was completely shocked and did not respond appropriately with a loud no. I pulled away but kept acting normal because my daughter was there and I didn't want her to notice anything was wrong. He tried to kiss me multiple times. I got us back to my car and left as soon as possible.
WTF do I do now? I know I fkd up by not being clear that his actions weren't appreciated at all. I feel sick about it, I keep throwing up.
How am I going to go to work tomorrow? How am I going to work with him? Wtf do I do? I can't stop crying, I'm his boss! But he's older than me, and I feel violated and disgusting and gross and I also feel like it's my fault and I wish I could go back in time and not go to the picnic and make this go away, but I can't. And I just don't know wtf to do.
Can it even be harassment if I'm his boss? Is there any way to fix this? How do I make it go away?
Post by lauren170 on Sept 28, 2014 18:39:57 GMT -5
It is not your fault - at all. Does your company have HR? Start there if they do. If not, can you go to your boss? I would think firing would be the best course of action. You're his boss, you can do that. It will be hard to fire - but easier than dealing with this longer than you have to. So sorry and big hugs!
Here's my stress about HR. We have a director of HR, but she is my peer and we have the same boss. Our team has a total of 6 people in it- the COO oversees us all, her assistant, then HR director and me (finance), then we each oversee one person (I oversee X).
So if I tell her I have to tell my boss and then pretty much they have to talk to legal council, right? So it will become a big mess. But I don't really have any options otherwise, do I? I don't want to lose my job. Fml. My head keeps spinning. How did this happen?
In terms of continuing supervising him, if it could all go away and tomorrow we just pretended it had never happened, maybe.
But that isn't possible, is it? Because if I tell him that he crossed lines and can never do that again, that will always be there and it will be hostile again like it was in the beginning? That's where I am landing now but I just can't face it.
I'm still struggling with moving my separation to divorce...thinking about this becoming another legal thing makes me just want to disappear. Because clearly I'm not capable of interacting with people in the world lol,
So if I tell her I have to tell my boss and then pretty much they have to talk to legal council, right? So it will become a big mess. But I don't really have any options otherwise, do I? I don't want to lose my job. Fml. My head keeps spinning. How did this happen?
None of this is your fault, so you have no reason to be embarrassed for making a "fuss" about this.
I am so sorry you are in this situation. I think you are right that you can't pretend it never happened. I tried to do that and it backfired on me. It ended up effecting me for years after. We were both employees no supervisory relationship.
Please do what is best for yourself and do not stress about the legal ramifications. If you want to chat please pm me.
Hmm. I would talk to HR, but I am not sure this is fireable since it didn't happen at work. Assuming he's behaved appropriately toward you when actually in the workplace and performing his job, I don't see this as something he can or even should lose his job over. It sounds like he is interested in you and you don't share those feelings. For whatever reason it sounds like thought you might be receptive toward his advances (not saying you did anything wrong, just that his motives may not have been harassment but rather just misplaced affection).
I think it might be good for HR to know about it, but I honestly would try talking to him (after you've spoken with HR so they know you are not harassing him). Make it clear that you only want a professional relationship and that it can't happen again. Then see how things go. It will be awkward, but if you both behave professionally moving forward it doesn't have to mean him losing his job.
IMO it sounds more like a misunderstanding than harassment. Hopefully you can clear it up without further trauma. I'm sorry you have to deal with this.
Post by tripleshot on Sept 28, 2014 19:33:52 GMT -5
You need to go to HR first thing in the morning and document it. Any kind of wait will not look good. You did nothing wrong. Head up, stay strong, and document, document, document.
Hmm. I would talk to HR, but I am not sure this is fireable since it didn't happen at work. Assuming he's behaved appropriately toward you when actually in the workplace and performing his job, I don't see this as something he can or even should lose his job over. It sounds like he is interested in you and you don't share those feelings. For whatever reason it sounds like thought you might be receptive toward his advances (not saying you did anything wrong, just that his motives may not have been harassment but rather just misplaced affection).
I think it might be good for HR to know about it, but I honestly would try talking to him (after you've spoken with HR so they know you are not harassing him). Make it clear that you only want a professional relationship and that it can't happen again. Then see how things go. It will be awkward, but if you both behave professionally moving forward it doesn't have to mean him losing his job.
IMO it sounds more like a misunderstanding than harassment. Hopefully you can clear it up without further trauma. I'm sorry you have to deal with this.
I see this and I get it. I don't want him to lose his job but how can I keep working with him? Should I just accept that now I need to get a new job?
While this didn't happen at work, in my mind (before all this happened) it was a work-related event in the sense that it was a professional association and he asked me to go with him during our weekly check-in meetings.
Clearly I somehow misled him which is why I feel like this is my fault. But before this event I had probably had a total of 1 hour of discussion over three years where we talked about non-work things. And those things weren't personal; more along the lines of mowing lawns and how to keep deer away.
I just can't figure out where I went wrong. How do I go back in time?
Why couldn't he have used words rather than being so forward physically? Maybe I would have been clearer if it could have been words.
Post by jerseyjaybird on Sept 28, 2014 19:36:31 GMT -5
I'm so sorry----this is not your fault. I do agree that you need to document this with HR. If it turns into a "big mess" . . . well, he created that mess, not you.
ETA: It REALLY doesn't sound as if you led him on. At all, ever. And even if you did, his actions were irresponsible and 100% his doing, not yours.
Post by litebright on Sept 28, 2014 19:58:24 GMT -5
If you don't report it, I'm afraid it's likely to happen again. It seems obvious to me that this was NOT spur of the moment: this guy manipulated you into a vulnerable situation under the guise of work. I would place bets that his wife never actually heard about the event or that she was welcome, so he could ask you. Then he asks you to go off alone with only your child -- at a professional networking event?
He clearly has no issue with pushing himself on you. I would worry that if this is a guy with a long-held grudge about the power balance between you, that this is how it's coming out because he feels like you're vulnerable since you're in the process of divorce and it may only get worse from here. Please, be very careful and proactive. Report this to HR and if they aren't helpful enough, consider filing a police report -- you were touched and grabbed and he attempted to kiss you, that is sexual assault! Even if it doesn't result in charges, maybe being interviewed by a police officer will shake this guy up and create a paper trail.
I am so pissed reading that this asshole assaulted you in front of your kid. Not your fault! Not legal advice but I don't even know if I would wait until tomorrow... I'd think about sending an email to HR and your boss tonight documenting what happened (probably with more specificity than you've typed here with regard to what he actually did, how many attempts, etc.). I think in your shoes I would ask to have someone else supervising him until they hopefully can him. I'm so sorry you are in this position.
2. Ask to speak with him (get HR's recommendation on where/when/who else should be present) and explain that you think there may have been a misunderstanding, but that you are not, and never have been, interested in anything other than a professional relationship, but you hope that what happened won't affect the workplace environment. HR can help you with exactly what to say.
3. You DO NOT need to quit your job over this. You did nothing wrong. As to whether or not you can continue to supervise him, it's really up to you. If it were me, I think I'd give it a try, and see how it goes. If it gets weird, keep HR in the loop and end the professional association. It's possible that he feels embarrassed that he got the wrong idea, and just wants to forget about the whole thing. It's also possible that he will act like an ass toward you from now on, and try to hold this over your head in some way, which is why you MUST disclose this to HR. Again, YOU did nothing wrong.
ETA: Obviously you were there and I wasn't. If you feel like this was assault and not just a misunderstanding, then I would end the professional relationship NOW and consider filing a police report. If this guy goes around feeling up women, then chances are he's a creep who has done this many times before and will do it again.
Hmm. I would talk to HR, but I am not sure this is fireable since it didn't happen at work. Assuming he's behaved appropriately toward you when actually in the workplace and performing his job, I don't see this as something he can or even should lose his job over. It sounds like he is interested in you and you don't share those feelings. For whatever reason it sounds like thought you might be receptive toward his advances (not saying you did anything wrong, just that his motives may not have been harassment but rather just misplaced affection).
I think it might be good for HR to know about it, but I honestly would try talking to him (after you've spoken with HR so they know you are not harassing him). Make it clear that you only want a professional relationship and that it can't happen again. Then see how things go. It will be awkward, but if you both behave professionally moving forward it doesn't have to mean him losing his job.
IMO it sounds more like a misunderstanding than harassment. Hopefully you can clear it up without further trauma. I'm sorry you have to deal with this.
... While this didn't happen at work, in my mind (before all this happened) it was a work-related event in the sense that it was a professional association and he asked me to go with him during our weekly check-in meetings.
...
HR can certainly help you sort out whether this was officially work-related. My sense is that it was. I mean, if a colleague tried to kiss me at a professional event on the weekend I would absolutely go straight to HR. And if he tried several times after I had said no (verbally or by drawing away)? That's not just an unwelcome advance. That's seriously inappropriate.
I think no matter whether you plan to continue trying to work with him or not the fact that you are his supervisor makes it more important that you document officially through HR. If there is a paper trail that he came on to you from the start, he's less likely to get away with trying to claim it was you coming on to him somewhere down the line when he doesn't get what he wants.
ETA - sorry, I deleted most of your comment because I remembered you had asked for no DD. let me know if you want me to delete the relevant part I was responding to. But also, if you're comfortable leaving this up until tomorrow I know there are some ladies in HR in this forum who might be able to give you better advice.
IMO it sounds more like a misunderstanding than harassment. Hopefully you can clear it up without further trauma. I'm sorry you have to deal with this.
How is it a misunderstanding if she said no during a work networking event and he kept going in multiple times? That's fucked up.
OP, don't feel like it's your fault. I'd definitely talk to HR about it since this was just more than he tried to kiss you one time and the apologized after you said no. I hope they are helpful and there is a solution.
Post by FishChicks on Sept 28, 2014 20:47:08 GMT -5
Please be fair to yourself, and be a good role model for other women when it comes to this situation: be very clear that you did not "lead him on." Period. Attending a professional event with another professional should never be construed as leading someone on. What you're dealing with is awful, and you have my total sympathy, but trying to take the blame for this sets you back and perpetuates the BS idea that somehow the woman is always to blame.
I agree with others: email HR now. This is an issue that will have career implications for you both. Handle it promptly. Will your future working relationship with X be less pleasant than it has been? Yes. Is that a good thing? Yes, clearly. He couldn't set appropriate boundaries with a pleasant relationship. I would recommend you see if HR has any guidance, but document it TODAY, and barring any input from HR, have a sit down with him first thing Monday morning.
Since it was clearly unwelcome, there is no workplace where his behavior is acceptable and he needs to understand that. As his boss, you need to have the courage to make that clear and continue to demand work-appropriate behavior from him. That means that you need to set the expectation of ongoing cordial relationships with him, and then hold him to that expectation if he tries to be a jackass. (That's the technical HR term, btw. )
Good luck with this. You aren't at fault, and you do have the ability to handle this!
I wish I worked in a bigger office. The small department makes it so much worse. "HR" is my overworked coworker, and there isn't any option where X and I could keep working together but I didn't supervise him. We are the two people who handle all of the finance & accounting issues for our org. There is no way we could both work there and not together.
I just keep shutting my eyes and feeling like I'm in a dream. I feel totally blindsided and see no way out. Why did he do this?
Tonight my daughter was complaining about the little boy in her class who kisses her and she doesn't like it and I hear my voice telling her that her body is hers and hers alone and she needs to tell him no, and I feel like the biggest hypocrite in the world because I didn't yell no and slap him and run away, But how could I have done that today?
She's clearly oblivious except for asking me if I'd been crying today so at least I've managed to do one thing right maybe lol
Post by Velvetshady on Sept 28, 2014 21:16:36 GMT -5
There is no situation where what he did was appropriate. Period. This is absolutely not your fault in any way. At all.
Him getting fired is not the worst case scenario. What happens if you don't got to HR first thing in the morning and report your side immediately and ask that he no longer report to you--at a minimum--and that he be "counseled" that sexual assault of any level is NEVER FUCKING APPROPRIATE--coworker, friend, or not--or one of two things could happen: 1) he continues and gets more insistent (at what point will you finally call the cops on him? What level of assault will it take?)or 2) he decides to go on the legal offensive and accuses YOU of being the one doing this to him.
This is not something you just deal with and hope blows over. You did nothing wrong, he did. Shut it down now. You are guilty of nothing here, don't let yourself continue to be his victim.
IMO it sounds more like a misunderstanding than harassment. Hopefully you can clear it up without further trauma. I'm sorry you have to deal with this.
How is it a misunderstanding if she said no during a work networking event and he kept going in multiple times? That's fucked up.
OP, don't feel like it's your fault. I'd definitely talk to HR about it since this was just more than he tried to kiss you one time and the apologized after you said no. I hope they are helpful and there is a solution.
I guess I didn't read that part of the OP like this. I thought she said he more or less was trying to kiss her and she wasn't real clear about saying no and since her kid was there, they were getting interrupted vs her shutting him down and him continuing to be pushy on her. If I read it incorrectly, that's a different story. I was more picturing a guy who was trying to initiate something romantic vs him being forceful.
How is it a misunderstanding if she said no during a work networking event and he kept going in multiple times? That's fucked up.
OP, don't feel like it's your fault. I'd definitely talk to HR about it since this was just more than he tried to kiss you one time and the apologized after you said no. I hope they are helpful and there is a solution.
I guess I didn't read that part of the OP like this. I thought she said he more or less was trying to kiss her and she wasn't real clear about saying no and since her kid was there, they were getting interrupted vs her shutting him down and him continuing to be pushy on her. If I read it incorrectly, that's a different story. I was more picturing a guy who was trying to initiate something romantic vs him being forceful.
OP said no, pulled away and he tried to kiss her multiple times. It doesn't have to be "forceful" like pinning her to the ground for it to be harassment and inappropriate.
Post by vanillacourage on Sept 28, 2014 21:34:29 GMT -5
This is not your fault.
You did not "somehow mislead him". If this guy was interested in you romantically he should have asked you to coffee or on a date. Trying to grope you and kiss you multiple times at a work event while your daughter is present makes him a disgusting creep.
I would email HR and the CEO or whoever the ultimate leadership in the company is, letting them know that there was a serious breach of professional conduct and that you need to meet with them first-thing in the morning to discuss. Fill them in. Your goal outcome is that a meeting should take place, with you present but HR or leadership leading it, telling the guy that X, Y and Z were absolutely inappropriate and if there is even a hint of a second offense, he will be immediately terminated. DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT. Follow up on your meeting with HR tomorrow with an email back to them - "as per our meeting, it is my understanding that A, B and C will happen as a result of <description here> events of this weekend."
OP said no, pulled away and he tried to kiss her multiple times. It doesn't have to be "forceful" like pinning her to the ground for it to be harassment and inappropriate.
Looks to me from the OP that she pulled away but acted normal - doesn't say she ever said no. Not that that excuses his behavior, but this could be a guy trying to kiss someone he likes (I know he's married and whatever else) as opposed to an assault. He might not have known it was unwanted.
She said "I didn't respond appropriately and said a loud no."
I never said anything about this being an assault. I said that this doesn't sound like a misunderstanding (due to the no and the multiple attempts after she pulled away) and is completely inappropriate at a work related event.
I honestly can't believe that anyone thinks it's ok for a dude to keep trying to kiss a woman after she's said no and pulled away.
OP said no, pulled away and he tried to kiss her multiple times. It doesn't have to be "forceful" like pinning her to the ground for it to be harassment and inappropriate.
Looks to me from the OP that she pulled away but acted normal - doesn't say she ever said no. Not that that excuses his behavior, but this could be a guy trying to kiss someone he likes (I know he's married and whatever else) as opposed to an assault. He might not have known it was unwanted.
Him attempting to kiss her at a work event is inappropriate. While her daughter is there - more so. Going in for a second shot after being rebuffed the first time - this guy knew exactly what he was doing.
I guess I didn't read that part of the OP like this. I thought she said he more or less was trying to kiss her and she wasn't real clear about saying no and since her kid was there, they were getting interrupted vs her shutting him down and him continuing to be pushy on her. If I read it incorrectly, that's a different story. I was more picturing a guy who was trying to initiate something romantic vs him being forceful.
OP said no, pulled away and he tried to kiss her multiple times. It doesn't have to be "forceful" like pinning her to the ground for it to be harassment and inappropriate.
She said she did NOT say no and that she felt she messed up by not being clear he was acting inappropriate. That's what my advice was based on. If she wasn't clear, it could have been a misunderstanding that at this point could be cleared up without anyone losing their job. If I misread the OP then I am sorry for misunderstanding myself
I agree it was inappropriate regardless. I'm just not sure that since this is not a work event and since she does not feel she clearly told him to back off, that there is much HR can do beyond documenting and watching the situation. I am about 90% sure my old HR department would not have done anything other than make a note of it. I think at this point he needs to be told in no uncertain terms that this is not to happen again, and if he keeps it up or starts acting like an ass then firing or other punishment would be correct. Firing him for this particular situation right now sounds like a potential legal risk for the organization.
All that said, OP, don't blame yourself. It doesn't sound like you did anything wrong or led him to behave like this.
I don't feel like he assaulted me...I wish I had screamed no and slapped him and run away. But instead I pulled away and kept holding my daughters hands and toys and carrying her and anything I could think of to keep myself entwined in her and away from him. Every time she turned her head or ran away is when he would come in and try to kiss or grabbed my bottom. I absolutely was not clear and direct and I know this and that's a big part of why I feel so hateful toward myself and so confused about what to do now. I was shocked and felt awkward and scared and uncomfortable and was very cognizant of my daughter there with me and what she was experiencing and the face I was putting on for her. At the detriment to how I should have acted,
I should have been direct and clear and said so in words after the first physical advance. And I didn't, I just moved away and avoided, multiple times. I know he did something wrong but I made it worse by not being clear,