I'm sorry I didn't mean to be confusing or make people confused about facts. Clearly I'm confused myself and can't think straight. Which is obviously problematic for me doing anything.
Post by vanillacourage on Sept 28, 2014 21:42:12 GMT -5
Your daughter is six and she was close enough during all of this for you to hold her hands?!? Ok, I would want his job for this. I'm not kidding.
ETA - please don't feel bad for not screaming or slapping him. That would have actually made the situation even more complicated, because then if you pursued action against him he could claim that YOU assaulted HIM. You handled it correctly - now you need ice water flowing through your veins to cut him off at the fucking knees. What an asshole. I'm so sorry this happened to you.
I don't feel like he assaulted me...I wish I had screamed no and slapped him and run away. But instead I pulled away and kept holding my daughters hands and toys and carrying her and anything I could think of to keep myself entwined in her and away from him. Every time she turned her head or ran away is when he would come in and try to kiss or grabbed my bottom. I absolutely was not clear and direct and I know this and that's a big part of why I feel so hateful toward myself and so confused about what to do now. I was shocked and felt awkward and scared and uncomfortable and was very cognizant of my daughter there with me and what she was experiencing and the face I was putting on for her. At the detriment to how I should have acted,
I should have been direct and clear and said so in words after the first physical advance. And I didn't, I just moved away and avoided, multiple times. I know he did something wrong but I made it worse by not being clear,
I really think pulling away was enough. You did and he kept trying to grope and kiss you at a work event. This needs to be addressed. Nothing here is your fault.
I don't feel like he assaulted me...I wish I had screamed no and slapped him and run away. But instead I pulled away and kept holding my daughters hands and toys and carrying her and anything I could think of to keep myself entwined in her and away from him. Every time she turned her head or ran away is when he would come in and try to kiss or grabbed my bottom. I absolutely was not clear and direct and I know this and that's a big part of why I feel so hateful toward myself and so confused about what to do now. I was shocked and felt awkward and scared and uncomfortable and was very cognizant of my daughter there with me and what she was experiencing and the face I was putting on for her. At the detriment to how I should have acted,
I should have been direct and clear and said so in words after the first physical advance. And I didn't, I just moved away and avoided, multiple times. I know he did something wrong but I made it worse by not being clear,
Please stop blaming yourself. Even if you didn't run away yelling and screaming you didn't reciprocate and he acted inappropriately at a work related networking event.
I don't feel like he assaulted me...I wish I had screamed no and slapped him and run away. But instead I pulled away and kept holding my daughters hands and toys and carrying her and anything I could think of to keep myself entwined in her and away from him. Every time she turned her head or ran away is when he would come in and try to kiss or grabbed my bottom. I absolutely was not clear and direct and I know this and that's a big part of why I feel so hateful toward myself and so confused about what to do now. I was shocked and felt awkward and scared and uncomfortable and was very cognizant of my daughter there with me and what she was experiencing and the face I was putting on for her. At the detriment to how I should have acted,
I should have been direct and clear and said so in words after the first physical advance. And I didn't, I just moved away and avoided, multiple times. I know he did something wrong but I made it worse by not being clear,
If a stranger grabbed your ass multiple times in a park, what would you think it was? Because it would be considered an assault.
Again--YOU DID NOTHING WRONG. He is counting on you thinking your did something wrong and not reporting it or doing anything about it. Probably worked that way for him before in his life. He knows what he did was wrong--if he didn't know, he wouldn't have been trying to hid it from your daughter and others at the event, don't be another person that he victimizes.
OP said no, pulled away and he tried to kiss her multiple times. It doesn't have to be "forceful" like pinning her to the ground for it to be harassment and inappropriate.
She said she did NOT say no and that she felt she messed up by not being clear he was acting inappropriate. That's what my advice was based on. If she wasn't clear, it could have been a misunderstanding that at this point could be cleared up without anyone losing their job. If I misread the OP then I am sorry for misunderstanding myself
I agree it was inappropriate regardless. I'm just not sure that since this is not a work event and since she does not feel she clearly told him to back off, that there is much HR can do beyond documenting and watching the situation. I am about 90% sure my old HR department would not have done anything other than make a note of it. I think at this point he needs to be told in no uncertain terms that this is not to happen again, and if he keeps it up or starts acting like an ass then firing or other punishment would be correct. Firing him for this particular situation right now sounds like a potential legal risk for the organization.
All that said, OP, don't blame yourself. It doesn't sound like you did anything wrong or led him to behave like this.
And this is why I'm afraid of doing anything. How can I work with him, though? There is no situation where both of us still work there and don't interact all day long. If he is angry at me he can fuck me over by screwing things up at work. Easily. So as soon as I confront him or tell anyone that's the possible road I'm down, So if he deserves his job then how can I stay in mine?
I'm 32 years old and I've never had a guy attempt to be this physical without any sort of dating first. I barely know him, other than he is married, around 60 years old, and has two grown sons, he's never given me any sort of bad vibe before this all happened today,
She said she did NOT say no and that she felt she messed up by not being clear he was acting inappropriate. That's what my advice was based on. If she wasn't clear, it could have been a misunderstanding that at this point could be cleared up without anyone losing their job. If I misread the OP then I am sorry for misunderstanding myself
I agree it was inappropriate regardless. I'm just not sure that since this is not a work event and since she does not feel she clearly told him to back off, that there is much HR can do beyond documenting and watching the situation. I am about 90% sure my old HR department would not have done anything other than make a note of it. I think at this point he needs to be told in no uncertain terms that this is not to happen again, and if he keeps it up or starts acting like an ass then firing or other punishment would be correct. Firing him for this particular situation right now sounds like a potential legal risk for the organization.
All that said, OP, don't blame yourself. It doesn't sound like you did anything wrong or led him to behave like this.
And this is why I'm afraid of doing anything. How can I work with him, though? There is no situation where both of us still work there and don't interact all day long. If he is angry at me he can fuck me over by screwing things up at work. Easily. So as soon as I confront him or tell anyone that's the possible road I'm down, So if he deserves his job then how can I stay in mine?
I'm 32 years old and I've never had a guy attempt to be this physical without any sort of dating first. I barely know him, other than he is married, around 60 years old, and has two grown sons, he's never given me any sort of bad vibe before this all happened today,
That's why my advice is to talk to HR so that this gets on record, then talk to him. HR can be involved in that conversation if need be. That conversation should end this behavior and he should go back to acting like a normal professional. You are right that he may not do that - and THAT is when his job will be/should be at risk. And if he does fuck you over or treat you poorly, make sure it's reported and document and he will lose his job. I don't think he can be fired for one offense that happened outside of work, but he absolutely can be fired for ongoing issues at work.
ETA: The fact that he was grabbing at you does make me a little less sure about my stance her. I read the original post as more of a romantic advance thing, grabbing you multiple times gets a little more harassing IMO. I still am not sure what - if anything - HR can do about his job, but make sure they understand this was part of the interaction.
I keep coming back to this thread because I'm seeing red on your behalf. I like Velvetshady's question about if a stranger tried to kiss you multiple times and grabbed your ass, what would you call it? There is no way things are ever going to be the same with this man, who went way over the line. That's why you have to protect yourself by documenting through HR.
A co-worker going in for a kiss while you two are having coffee, then being apologetic when you pull away and never doing anything again...that what a misunderstanding looks like. A coworker making multiple attempts and actually grabbing your butt while at a professional networking event with your daughter where he knows you'll be afraid to make a scene, that's predatory. I would bet a lot of money you're not the first person he's pulled this on.
Honestly, if you're still unsure about going to HR (which you shouldn't be), I would recommend at least talking to a counselor (do you have an Employee Assistance Program?) tomorrow to try to get to the bottom of why you keep blaming yourself for this. It's fine that you want to protect your daughter, but you know what you wanted to tell her when she was complaining about that boy trying to kiss her. If you really want her to learn that, you need to learn to internalize that you, too, have a right to protect yourself.
Post by vanillacourage on Sept 28, 2014 21:59:25 GMT -5
Ok. I get that you're upset. Stop thinking six moves down the road - get through tomorrow. Your goal is for the company to come down STRONGLY on your side. Keep things 1000% professional and know that if your company throws you under the bus and you experience negative repercussions after reporting sexual harassment then you may very well have legal remedy. Which is why again, DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT.
Post by sunshineluv on Sept 28, 2014 22:05:35 GMT -5
The fact he groped you makes it a whole different level of inappropriate. When I first read this, I thought he leaned in for a kiss a few times, which is bad, but actually touching you, on your butt, makes it way worse. If this was some guy you were actually on a date with that would be wrong. I am sorry he did this to you.
I should have been direct and clear and said so in words after the first physical advance. And I didn't, I just moved away and avoided, multiple times. I know he did something wrong but I made it worse by not being clear,
If a stranger grabbed your ass multiple times in a park, what would you think it was? Because it would be considered an assault.
Again--YOU DID NOTHING WRONG. He is counting on you thinking your did something wrong and not reporting it or doing anything about it. Probably worked that way for him before in his life. He knows what he did was wrong--if he didn't know, he wouldn't have been trying to hid it from your daughter and others at the event, don't be another person that he victimizes.
I agree, if a stranger did this to you I would imagine that you would have called 911 and it would have been on the local news about some creeper who assaulted a woman. You absolutely do not have to be "direct and clear and say so in words" to tell a man that what they're doing is completely inappropriate.
Personally, I would 1) call the local police to report this assault and 2) notify HR first thing tomorrow morning.
You did nothing wrong, please stop thinking about "well what if I did this...or did that..." because it isn't going to change what happened. Please report this!!!!
Post by dexteroni on Sept 28, 2014 23:48:30 GMT -5
I'm so sorry this happened to you. It is in no way your fault, nor did you make it worse by not saying no or yelling. The fact that you think that breaks my heart.
I agree that you need to go to HR first thing tomorrow with this. I wouldn't even speak to your employee or look him in the eye until after you've spoken to HR. The fact that your HR person is on your level is irrelevant. Do you think HR is only there to help people subordinate to them? Of course not.
And I say this with love, but maybe slightly tough love - you absolutely canNOT go to HR with this "this is my fault, I led him on, I made it worse" attitude. Absolutely not. You need to be clearheaded and explain that he repeatedly assaulted you, because that's what he did. Tell HR how he attempted to kiss and fondle you repeatedly, even after you pulled away. And that he did it with your daughter present, which put you in an even more difficult situation, because you couldn't risk traumatizing her. That doesn't make any part of this your fault - that makes it even shittier of him to have done this.
I would want him fired, honestly. You deserve your job, and you didn't do anything wrong. The person who assaults a coworker is the one who doesn't deserve to be there. You're his boss. You need to stop giving him all the power. All of the wrongdoing came from him, so if anyone needs to go, it's him. And if he makes things difficult at work by screwing things up, then he needs to be fired for that. But really, he should be fired for what he did to you today.
((((hugs)))) Hang in there. Summon your strength. Get pissed off about this! You need to be strong, confident, livid, and calling for his head. The shock is making you question everything, but you know what's right and wrong, and what needs to be done. You can do this.
Post by WinterWine on Sept 28, 2014 23:52:55 GMT -5
I'm sending you a giant hug!! Hang in there, this is 100% completely not our fault! You did absolutely nothing wrong. You have gotten some excellent advice from pp. I would write out a list of events, starting with his invitation to join him at the event, all the way through your interactions. That will help you to remember what happened, when and will be useful to police/HR. Like pp, I would recommend filing a police report tonight, emailing your boss and HR about the inappropriate event tonight, and follow-up with an in person meeting with them tomorrow. I would have 0 interaction with your employee until you have spoken to your boss and HR, this will help limit any other actions on his part.
Hang in there and keep your chin up. This is an incredibly situation, but you will get though this. We are here for you every step of the way!!
I'm just going to repeat everything dexteroni said.
This is in NO WAY your fault. He is a man, he is physically larger and used that to his advantage. You had your child with you and he used that to his advantage. You are going through a divorce and are therefore vulnerable (no H to come after him right now) and he used that to his advantage.
He is a significantly older and married man who works for you. There is absolutely no reason that you should have to tell him his advances are not welcome. He is twice your age, he is married. He is your subordinate (and as a male twice your age is probably not happy about it and used his physical size to harass and intimidate you to "bring you to his level" since he is a subordinate.)
There is absolutely no reason to feel guilty. What you should hopefully feel when you wake up is ANGRY about this. You are talking about leaving a job because he harassed you. A job that pays your bills, feeds you and your child, and provides security (at a very insecure time for you from the sound of it.) You are just as entitled to your job as he is to his, so you need to get the "I don't deserve it as much" because you do. You MORE than deserve your job. You are qualified enough to be his superior, at a much younger age. So, don't let his intimidation succeed in driving you out.
Contact HR. You are his boss. For now, take a breath, take the advice of all the PP who told you to take a minute to write everything down, current event and any past events and see HR FIRST THING in the morning. The company needs to be on notice. And he should be the one to go, not you. Let your anger serve its purpose. Don't let him bully you (which is what he tried in the beginning) and don't let him drive you out; stand your ground, as the boss and as the person who has no reason to back down. You need the job to take care of yourself and your child. He is the one completely, 100% in the wrong and if he needed the job he never should have been inappropriate (bordering criminal) if he meant to keep it.
I'm disgusted that anyone would call this a misunderstanding. This dirtbag plotted to put the OP in a situation where she was vulnerable and assaulted her in front of her child. He knew when she pulled away and focused on her daughter that his actions were unwanted, and he continued to assault her!
He's a bully and an asshole, and he should be fired.
What an asshole! Please don't think that this is any way your fault! You were taken advantage of and what he did was seriously fucked up.
I know you don't want to make a big stink over this. I get this. No one wants to have their professional life in such upheaval. But you deserve respect as a person and this guy showed you none. Go to HR.
I'm sorry that you have to deal with this because you don't deserve it.
And this is why I'm afraid of doing anything. How can I work with him, though? There is no situation where both of us still work there and don't interact all day long. If he is angry at me he can fuck me over by screwing things up at work. Easily. So as soon as I confront him or tell anyone that's the possible road I'm down, So if he deserves his job then how can I stay in mine?
I'm 32 years old and I've never had a guy attempt to be this physical without any sort of dating first. I barely know him, other than he is married, around 60 years old, and has two grown sons, he's never given me any sort of bad vibe before this all happened today,
That's why my advice is to talk to HR so that this gets on record, then talk to him. HR can be involved in that conversation if need be. That conversation should end this behavior and he should go back to acting like a normal professional. You are right that he may not do that - and THAT is when his job will be/should be at risk. And if he does fuck you over or treat you poorly, make sure it's reported and document and he will lose his job. I don't think he can be fired for one offense that happened outside of work, but he absolutely can be fired for ongoing issues at work.
ETA: The fact that he was grabbing at you does make me a little less sure about my stance her.
Ok it was clear to me from the beginning that his behavior was inappropriate, but how can you still think it's a misunderstanding when OP explained further that he was grabbing her ass multiple times after she pulled away?
I have no clue if he can be fired or if this fits in the legal definition of sexual harassment but I know for a fact that he acted inappropriately and this was no misunderstanding.
I'm not going to change my mind on that, but can you explain your side about how this might have been ok?
What a dick. You aren't putting his job in jeopardy, he did that when he harassed you. He did this, he should suffer the consequences.
If this happened to your daughter, what advice would you give her?
This was the thought I fell asleep to last night. Not only what advice would you give her, but what would you want her to actually do? What would make you proud she did? Do that yourself.
Really, you need to stop worrying about him, and focus on yourself.
Post by heyrebekah on Sept 29, 2014 9:31:55 GMT -5
Even if you WERE on a date, you still don't go from zero to grabass during a wholesome family picnic/professional event. What he did was completely inappropriate, and he knew it. Sure he could argue "Oh, I just misunderstood." But trust, he didn't misunderstand anything and you didn't do anything to lead him on or confuse him. I hope you are talking to HR right now. Good luck.
Is he trying to fuck you over at work? The first one to document...I would have HR stand next you while you meet with him at the office to tell him his advances were not appropriate and were unsolicited. End of story.
That's why my advice is to talk to HR so that this gets on record, then talk to him. HR can be involved in that conversation if need be. That conversation should end this behavior and he should go back to acting like a normal professional. You are right that he may not do that - and THAT is when his job will be/should be at risk. And if he does fuck you over or treat you poorly, make sure it's reported and document and he will lose his job. I don't think he can be fired for one offense that happened outside of work, but he absolutely can be fired for ongoing issues at work.
ETA: The fact that he was grabbing at you does make me a little less sure about my stance her.
Ok it was clear to me from the beginning that his behavior was inappropriate, but how can you still think it's a misunderstanding when OP explained further that he was grabbing her ass multiple times after she pulled away?
I have no clue if he can be fired or if this fits in the legal definition of sexual harassment but I know for a fact that he acted inappropriately and this was no misunderstanding.
I'm not going to change my mind on that, but can you explain your side about how this might have been ok?
Ok, I think I'm looking at this more from an HR perspective than a personal one. No, it's not ok for him to do this. I don't think I said it was a misunderstanding in my later posts after she had provided more explanation. The first post honestly did initially read to me like they were hanging out at this event and he tried to put the moves on her, she was with her kid so his attempts to kiss her were potentially interrupted vs her clearly pulling away because she was not interested. With the further information about him grabbing her butt, it seems like less of a misunderstanding and more of him behaving like a jerk.
That said - whether his behavior was ok or not, it still may not be something that would be considered sexual harassment in the workplace. For one, this did not take place in the workplace or at a work sponsored event (this is an organization they both independently belong to and attend on their own time, right? Not something their employer sends them to during the workday?). I don't know that HR can or should police what happens outside of work between employees who spend time together by their own choice. HR has an obligation to listen to both sides of the story - both the OP and the guy who did this - and I'm willing to bet the guy is going to either deny it happening or say he had romantic interest in her and his motives were not to harass or hurt her. So then I'm not sure what HR should do - if they fire someone for a he said/she said situation that happened outside of the workplace/off the clock, that opens them up to legal issues.
If the OP does not feel she was threatened or assaulted (which she says multiple times she did not) then I think the best course of action is to document that this happened and see what happens next. If he behaves professionally in the workplace, I understand it is uncomfortable for the OP to continue working with him but I think HR's hands might be tied because they really only can (and should) evaluate how employees behave in the workplace. Yes, it sucks. If I were OP's friend I'd have a totally different view on things than if I were OP's HR rep. HR is there to protect both the employee AND the organization and this situation is not straightforward enough that I would think HR would be able to outright fire this guy. If he behaved this way AT WORK it would be another story.
All that being said, I don't work for HR at their organization nor do I actually even work in employee relations, and different HR departments are going to have slightly different ways of handling things. So. I could be totally off. I am about 90% sure in the HR department I am most familiar with, HR would document and monitor this situation but could not do much at this point to actually act on it. Frankly I've been aware of more extreme situations where people kept their jobs because it was too risky to fire someone without more solid evidence of something happening/ongoing issues that were documented. So the OPs best course of action would be to tell HR, talk to the employee to ensure he is clear that she's not interested and that further advances are not welcome, and then just try to do the best she can to move forward working with this guy. It's a shitty situation to be put in.
Post by jennistarr1 on Sept 29, 2014 10:37:04 GMT -5
I think your actions CLEARLY said NO.
I like Vanillacourage's suggestion, arrange a meeting with HR where you clearly outline how his actions were inappropriate and how to proceed going forward.
Ok, I think I'm looking at this more from an HR perspective than a personal one. No, it's not ok for him to do this. I don't think I said it was a misunderstanding in my later posts after she had provided more explanation. The first post honestly did initially read to me like they were hanging out at this event and he tried to put the moves on her, she was with her kid so his attempts to kiss her were potentially interrupted vs her clearly pulling away because she was not interested. With the further information about him grabbing her butt, it seems like less of a misunderstanding and more of him behaving like a jerk.
That said - whether his behavior was ok or not, it still may not be something that would be considered sexual harassment in the workplace. For one, this did not take place in the workplace or at a work sponsored event (this is an organization they both independently belong to and attend on their own time, right? Not something their employer sends them to during the workday?). I don't know that HR can or should police what happens outside of work between employees who spend time together by their own choice. HR has an obligation to listen to both sides of the story - both the OP and the guy who did this - and I'm willing to bet the guy is going to either deny it happening or say he had romantic interest in her and his motives were not to harass or hurt her. So then I'm not sure what HR should do - if they fire someone for a he said/she said situation that happened outside of the workplace/off the clock, that opens them up to legal issues.
If the OP does not feel she was threatened or assaulted (which she says multiple times she did not) then I think the best course of action is to document that this happened and see what happens next. If he behaves professionally in the workplace, I understand it is uncomfortable for the OP to continue working with him but I think HR's hands might be tied because they really only can (and should) evaluate how employees behave in the workplace. Yes, it sucks. If I were OP's friend I'd have a totally different view on things than if I were OP's HR rep. HR is there to protect both the employee AND the organization and this situation is not straightforward enough that I would think HR would be able to outright fire this guy. If he behaved this way AT WORK it would be another story.
All that being said, I don't work for HR at their organization nor do I actually even work in employee relations, and different HR departments are going to have slightly different ways of handling things. So. I could be totally off. I am about 90% sure in the HR department I am most familiar with, HR would document and monitor this situation but could not do much at this point to actually act on it. Frankly I've been aware of more extreme situations where people kept their jobs because it was too risky to fire someone without more solid evidence of something happening/ongoing issues that were documented. So the OPs best course of action would be to tell HR, talk to the employee to ensure he is clear that she's not interested and that further advances are not welcome, and then just try to do the best she can to move forward working with this guy. It's a shitty situation to be put in.
He grabbed her ass. In what world is that typical "hitting on"?
Where did I say that? Where did I even say it was ok? And you bolded what I assume he would tell HR, not what I think happened.
I think people are (rightly) heated about this topic but you have to look at what is actually going to happen in the real world vs what you might want to happen. Frankly, I don't think it's ok that he grabbed her ass or that he did any of this at all. But I also don't think it's ok for employers to fire people for things they are told happen without having any actual evidence, especially if they happen outside of the workplace. Think of it like a mini legal system. That's why I keep saying that she should let HR know about this so if things keep happening, they can continue to document evidence that he's behaving in a way that is deserving of firing.
I mean to be honest - as much as it sucks for this OP or anyone in her situation, I am kind of glad that there are systems in place to prevent one employee from being able to accuse another of something that happened (especially outside of work) and have it result in job loss. Imagine if one of my coworkers didn't like me and could go to HR and make up something I did on the weekend and then I'm out of a job. That's why documentation is important. So there IS evidence of wrongdoing and you can fire someone properly.
I'm sorry I haven't been clear that I don't think he is behaving appropriately and I don't think the OP has done anything wrong. I just think that getting her further riled up and upset about how he should be fired isn't very useful to this situation. Actionable steps on how she can actually handle things within what's likely to happen are probably going to get her further in being able to move forward with a resolution.
@buckybells I was coming from the side of: she tells HR what happened. He tells HR that 'no, I was romantically interested and my motives were not to harass her or hurt her.' I'm not sure who can look at what she said happened (ass grabbing) and think oh yeah, he was just trying to hit on her not harass her. I understand the he said she said part. But if they take her claim seriously (which they should) then I'm not sure he'll 'get away' with saying that his intent was not to harass or hurt.
Yeah, that is a good point. IDK I guess it's all how both sides explain it. I hope that if the OP does make the complaint, she is very specific about what happened and how it happened, and doesn't assume blame like she did in the eariler parts of this thread. Even though that's unfortunately embarassing to talk about, I think her case is much stronger with the specifics and much harder for him to talk his way out of.
Grabbing someone's ass could be a way to hit on them. Maybe not the way many of us would like to be hit on, but not unquestionably intentionally hurtful.
Does not compute.
OP, I will echo the many who have told you to go to HR, even if she's overworked. Lay out, in writing, exactly what happened. Formulate a plan of action. This may be a matter of 1) telling him that HR knows what went on at this professional event, 2) he is "on notice" that there are others who know about this and will be keeping an eye on the situation, and 3) you will never work alone with him, inside or outside of the office.