Help me decide about my aging car?

[Susie]

Our older car is a 2003 Jetta, with about 167k miles.  It's in ok condition, but has 3-4 rust spots, two of which are not in places that we can really do anything about, and a ding.  It looks like a car that's 167k miles old.  I had harbored hopes of driving it all the way to 200k, but since it is not our long haul car*, that's going to take forever.  The rust might become a problem first!

*It's not our long haul car mostly because the dogs and bikes fit better on the Subaru Forester. I regret that reality, because I kind of hate the Forester on long trips.  It makes TERRIBLE road noise on interstates (rumbles, whistles, it's awful).  

The Jetta is due for inspection this month, and I fully expect to have to put some money into it to pass.  I know it needs 4 new tires, plus I strongly suspect something in the exhaust system needs replacing.  I'm expecting $500+ for tires, plus [TBD] for whatever else.  It has a slow oil leak that we've so far declined to drop 4 figures to dx + fix.  

I'm trying to think in advance about how much I am willing to put into it, so when they call and say "it needs X, Y, and Z to pass inspection, do you want us to go ahead?" I know whether to say yes or "no, slap a fail sticker on there to give us another month to replace."

The MM decision will probably be to fix it and keep driving it.  If we spend $1k on it in October, we'll come out ahead vs. a car payment as long as that buys us ~3 more months with the car without more work.  (It probably will.)  OTOH, $1k is a fair amount of money to put into a car that you're not loving.  I know what I want when it eventually comes time to replace, and it's tempting me:  a TDI Jetta sportwagon.  The current Jetta has few frills.  No heated seats, driver's seat doesn't move up/down (which I hate), velour upholstery that I don't especially care for, no aux input for iPhone/iPod, still has a tape deck (and a temperamental 1 disc CD player).  It'd just be SO NICE to have a few more luxuries, and a quieter long haul car.  But it's also nice to be putting >$1k/mo toward extra SL principal right now.  The long term progress that car frugality buys us is huge.

How would you decide when to trade it in?  Despite my obvious superficial desire to replace, I am good with keeping it this month, as long as we have a plan for when we'll eventually pull the plug.  I just don't think I'm good with the 5 or so more years that I think the arbitrary 200k mile mark will take at the current rate.

[keweenawlove]

I had a similar situation to you 6-8 months ago. I have a no frills Cavalier (no power locks/windows, cruise control) and was "ready" for an upgrade. I loved not having a car payment though. The rust is what ultimately put me over the breaking point.

Mine probably started to show a few areas of rust in Spring '13 and once it started, it just got exponentially worse. In looking at used Cavaliers online, a lot showed the same pattern so it might be car specific but who knows. This winter it was really bad - doors started creaking when I opened them. I had 2 repairs done (the windshield and muffler) and both mechanics told me the undercarriage rust was starting to get really bad to the point that the frame safety was starting to get compromised.

That was enough to push me over the tipping point. I was able to get $1300 out of it running so that was a nice bonus and I'm sooooo happy with my "fancy" new Subaru (yay for cruise control on my 500 mile drive on Friday). I think driving it in upper MI winter for 6 years with 5-6 months of snow really hurt the rust issue. If you live in the area I'm thinking of you in (lots of snow), it might be worth having the frame checked out to help with your decision.

[Susie]

Oct 1, 2014 10:58:20 GMT -5 keweenawlove said:

If you live in the area I'm thinking of you in (lots of snow), it might be worth having the frame checked out to help with your decision.

That is a good point.  (Yes, lots of snow here.  More importantly, lots of salted roads in the winter.)

We have a couple rust spots on the trunk that are just cosmetic, but the rust spots that are more concerning are behind the front wheel wells, probably where the front wheels kick up salt and water all winter.  The rust is on two panels where they come together, near the front door hinges.  When it goes in, I will ask them to check the rust situation underneath.  If I found myself in the situation you were in, I agree that'd be a decisionmaker.

[Deleted]

How much do you have set aside for a downpayment? If you could put more than 10-15k down you'd have a tiny car payment for 3 years.

If you don't have that much, I'd repair as long as less than 1500$ and take next 6-12 months to build a down payment fund as close to 10k as possible. And, if hit with another repair during that period, Id probably cave and get the new Jetta.

I went from a 99 to a 09 Jetta and it was so luxurious! . I (heart) my newer one, but wish it was as small as the 99. They have gotten bigger over the years!

[hbomdiggity]

I would probably start pricing out and looking at inventory for the new car. I think that model is somewhat limited, right?

You will not lose your MM badge for trading in* a 11yo car. I wouldn't put more than a couple hundred over the new tires. The leaking oil doesn't concern me - older vws do this and it's not a big deal.

*tradein value will be minuscule. Maybe $500?

[gt7301b]

We were in your shoes 6 months ago and we replaced my 1999 Honda Civic with a 2014 Forester and I don't regret it at all. We love having one car that doesn't ride like a 10+ year old car, isn't in and out of the shop, and has all the ammenities. Although apparently anything with a lightening connector isn't supported in the 2014 version, GRRR.

I had put new tires on my car before we got rid of it, but when it needed another $1000 in repairs I called uncle and took the $1,500 Carmax offered and ran.

[lys]

DH is still driving his 2003 Subaru - which at this point has a fair amount of rust, but in great shape otherwise. With our UP snow, it comes with the territory and so we accept that.
If you do not fix the car to pass inspection, how does that impact resale value? Could you even sell it?

I would get new tires and fix what is required by the inspection. Then - at the end of Dec (last few days) purchase your next vehicle. Sell your VW yourself - you will get more for it than if you trade it in.

[Susie]

Oct 1, 2014 12:21:36 GMT -5 @shoegal said:

How much do you have set aside for a downpayment? If you could put more than 10-15k down you'd have a tiny car payment for 3 years.

If you don't have that much, I'd repair as long as less than 1500$ and take next 6-12 months to build a down payment fund as close to 10k as possible. And, if hit with another repair during that period, Id probably cave and get the new Jetta.

I went from a 99 to a 09 Jetta and it was so luxurious! . I (heart) my newer one, but wish it was as small as the 99. They have gotten bigger over the years!

We have made the conscious decision not to save specifically for a down payment for a car beyond our general savings account.  Car loans may be kind of MM-distasteful, but my feeling on debt is that I have a lot of it (mostly SLs) so my best bet is to just work with it as best as possible.  Hoarding cash to buy a car outright makes less sense when the opportunity cost is having an additional $20k or so worth of SLs that could've been paid off with that money, instead growing at 5% or so.  Our overall debt is better off using an example $20k to pay off the 4-5% SLs and borrowing $20k at a lower rate to buy a car.  With that in mind, I would plan to put, I don't know, maybe $5k down and do a 36 month term on a new car, probably whether it's now or later.

[BeagleMama]

Oct 1, 2014 12:26:49 GMT -5 hbomdiggity said:

I would probably start pricing out and looking at inventory for the new car. I think that model is somewhat limited, right?

You will not lose your MM badge for trading in* a 11yo car. I wouldn't put more than a couple hundred over the new tires. The leaking oil doesn't concern me - older vws do this and it's not a big deal.

*tradein value will be minuscule. Maybe $500?

Completely agree. I drove a 2001 Jetta until 2012 and it was d.o.n.e. but I still loved her!

Also, I agree with your point on not paying cash. I don't mind financing a car because our interest rate was so low, our cash does better elsewhere. Cars are not investments, they are a means to an end.

[Susie]

Oct 1, 2014 12:26:49 GMT -5 hbomdiggity said:

I would probably start pricing out and looking at inventory for the new car. I think that model is somewhat limited, right?

You will not lose your MM badge for trading in* a 11yo car. I wouldn't put more than a couple hundred over the new tires. The leaking oil doesn't concern me - older vws do this and it's not a big deal.

*tradein value will be minuscule. Maybe $500?

Yes, inventory is pretty limited on the TDI Sportwagens.  I agree about the oil as long as it doesn't get worse.  We keep a quart of oil in the trunk because occasionally we need to add some between changes.  I feel a little guilty about that, but it is what it is.  Our previous Jetta did that too in its old age.  (The current Jetta is my 3rd.) 

As for value, if we call it "fair" condition, which probably is fair, KBB values it at ~$1700 private party sale, ~$700-800 on trade in.  If we trade in to a VW dealer, we don't have to fix anything first.  Depending on how much needs fixing, we could come out ahead trading it in now, vs. fixing and selling (now or later).

[simpsongal]

I don't know how much you'll get for it based on your description. A dealer would probably offer ~$500, Carmax might offer more. It's cheaper to put money into it if it can keep going. Personally, I would put $2000 into it if you could get another year out of it. It suuucks to drive a POAS and keep dropping money on it. But take it from someone who never had a car payment before last year, that sucks too.

DH and I went through this with both of our cars in the past 1.5 years. Both cars were old, had low (yes, low) mileage, but become increasingly unreliable. Think random break downs, un-diagnosable problems, and 4 exhaust leaks on my car that wouldn't stay fixed. It sucks to buy 2 cars in such a tight timeframe. We paid cash for one and financed the other (w/DP and payments, we're almost $30K out of pocket in the past 1.5 years on cars, blech). I hate cars.

If you decide to get another car, consider donating your car. That's what we did w/DH's - they towed it away for free too. They'll either scrap it or manage to fix it up for a needy family. Plus it's a tax deduction.

[protozoa]

Oct 1, 2014 11:05:05 GMT -5 Susie said:

Oct 1, 2014 10:58:20 GMT -5 keweenawlove said:

If you live in the area I'm thinking of you in (lots of snow), it might be worth having the frame checked out to help with your decision.

That is a good point.  (Yes, lots of snow here.  More importantly, lots of salted roads in the winter.)

We have a couple rust spots on the trunk that are just cosmetic, but the rust spots that are more concerning are behind the front wheel wells, probably where the front wheels kick up salt and water all winter.  The rust is on two panels where they come together, near the front door hinges.  When it goes in, I will ask them to check the rust situation underneath.  If I found myself in the situation you were in, I agree that'd be a decisionmaker.

I was going to say the same - my answer depends on how much rust was on the underbody. When I ditched my last car (a 2001 that we junked in 2013) my friend flipped it over and it was rusted horribly underneath.

ETA - if you do get rid of it, make sure you check how much you can get for scrap before trading it in. You might be able to get more for scrap + catalytic converter than a dealership will give you.

[tealblue]

I would start looking since you said your inventory is limited on the car you want. Put a few hundred in to get you through until you find a new car. I agree about looking into donating it. You'd probably be able to get a decent charitable contribution deduction over $500 of the trade in value.

Also, if you are in a super snowy place, I would get rid before putting new tires on. I spent $600 or 700 on decent tires for my 2003 last year. It was a world of difference to have new tires! I'm planning on keeping the car one more winter to get a little more use out of my good tires.

[Susie]

Oct 1, 2014 15:39:39 GMT -5 tealblue said:

I would start looking since you said your inventory is limited on the car you want. Put a few hundred in to get you through until you find a new car. I agree about looking into donating it. You'd probably be able to get a decent charitable contribution deduction over $500 of the trade in value.

Also, if you are in a super snowy place, I would get rid before putting new tires on. I spent $600 or 700 on decent tires for my 2003 last year. It was a world of difference to have new tires! I'm planning on keeping the car one more winter to get a little more use out of my good tires.

I'm afraid those two things are probably inconsistent in this case.  I don't think we'll pass inspection this month with the minimal tread on the tires.  We either need to get rid of the car or put new tires on it.  

[DirtySouth]

That's a lot of miles for a VW, and a lot of money to put into a VW with a lot of miles. If this were a Honda or Toyota I'd probably say to get it to 200k, but in this situation I'd trade it in.

[tealblue]

Oct 1, 2014 15:56:24 GMT -5 Susie said:

Oct 1, 2014 15:39:39 GMT -5 tealblue said:

I would start looking since you said your inventory is limited on the car you want. Put a few hundred in to get you through until you find a new car. I agree about looking into donating it. You'd probably be able to get a decent charitable contribution deduction over $500 of the trade in value.

Also, if you are in a super snowy place, I would get rid before putting new tires on. I spent $600 or 700 on decent tires for my 2003 last year. It was a world of difference to have new tires! I'm planning on keeping the car one more winter to get a little more use out of my good tires.

I'm afraid those two things are probably inconsistent in this case.  I don't think we'll pass inspection this month with the minimal tread on the tires.  We either need to get rid of the car or put new tires on it.  

Oh that's a bummer. We don't have inspections here on vehicles. hope they have just enough to get you through. Hoping that you can find a new car you love quickly!

[M]

FYI, you can buy used tires for cheaper with more tread to pass inspection.

As far as replacing, my car loving non-MM side says nothing is worse than driving a car that you hate. And it sounds like you hate it because 167k really isn't that high in mileage...though I know nothing about Jettas, but if that's all it's supposed to last...damn. My almost 10 year old Accord is at 130k and I expect it to last another 130k for 10 more years. We also just re-inherited my dad's 1995 Honda Passport (been passed around the family, I already had it once lol)...still running strong! So that's my MM side...fix what you need fixed on it and suck it up until it dies on you.

So, my question is, can you afford $X payments for Y years? I feel like we need a Suze Orman 'Can I Afford It' segment here lol.

[msmerymac]

What's the KBB value? I wouldn't put $2k into it if it's only worth $1800.

When was the last time you had work done? I agree that the repairs should't equal close to what you would put into a car payment every month. So if you put $1k in now, that's about 3 months, but if in 3 months you need to put in another $1k, I would make the decision then to let it go.

I also once had a car that needed about $1500 in repairs, in the same year I had done $600 in repairs and $300 in repairs. And the car was worth $1500. I donated it.

[Susie]

Oct 1, 2014 17:26:48 GMT -5 M said:

So, my question is, can you afford $X payments for Y years? I feel like we need a Suze Orman 'Can I Afford It' segment here lol.

I was trying to preempt this in the OP when I mentioned we're currently putting a discretionary extra $1k/mo toward SLs.  As in, our budget has a very easy place to find a monthly car payment.

To be fair to the Jetta, it hasn't really needed much work lately.  We replaced rear brakes in 10/2013, and catalytic converter (that was a bigger one) in 12/2012.  I absolutely could buy a new set of tires this month, fix whatever needs fixing, and KOKO toward 200k miles.  The question is, do I WANT to?

[M]

Well it sounds like you really want a new car so I say go for it.

Actually I would wait and see how much the repairs are going to be then decide if you would rather put it into this car or get something new.

[WinterWine]

If you are set on the VW I would at least try to wait until November. They do their Sign then drive event tgen that typically has 0% financing on all models. Sounds like you are getting to the point where putting money in the Jetta no longer makes sense. I like to keep cars forever so know how challenging it can be to make the decision to upgrade.

[Deleted]

If you want a new car, buy one, clearly you can afford it.

FWIW, I look to replace a vehicle when the cost of repairs ($ and inconvenience) become frequent enough that it approaches a new car payment. I got rid of my 2000 Accord in 2011. It had 145k miles and had a string of electrical issues. The final straw was when the internal computer died. It was $1k + to replace and the string of previous issues left me no longer trusting the car.

[lolo]

We just bought a new car over the weekend for similar reasons as you. DH has a 2004 Audi and it needed $3k worth of repairs now with the clutch estimated to go in the next 1-3 years. We already put $1-2k into it last year to get it to this point. Basically, we were looking at putting at least a year's worth of car payments into a 10-year old car.

Like you, we have student loans (some at stupid percentages, like 8%+) and so it didn't make sense (to us) to sit on cash for a downpayment when we could be working on those loans. So instead we put enough on the downpayment for the car so that we wouldn't be underwater the second we left the lot and then will pay the minimum on the car loan and continue paying extra on the student loans.

I know MM is wary of car payments...but at .9% and 1.59%, our two car loans are actually allowing us to save more money in interest long term. Yes, they aren't flexible the way SLs are (with income-repayment and forbearance schemes) BUT we have enough of an e-fund saved to make several months of payments, and our parents could bail us out if we REALLY got in a bind. Or we could sell one of the cars.

Anyway, I feel you, and I would look to replace the car.

[sjh722]

Oct 1, 2014 19:26:06 GMT -5 WinterWine said:

If you are set on the VW I would at least try to wait until November. They do their Sign then drive event tgen that typically has 0% financing on all models. Sounds like you are getting to the point where putting money in the Jetta no longer makes sense. I like to keep cars forever so know how challenging it can be to make the decision to upgrade.

This isn't a bad thought. If you absolutely need new tires to pass inspection, ditto pp about used tires.

It is a minor inconvenience, but we have had really good luck selling stuff on CL. We sold my 2005 Pontiac G6 with 176,000 miles on it for $3,800 last month. I think the buyer had her heart set on a G6. The dealer trade-in offer a year ago was something like $1,300. I would at least try to list it; you may be surprised at the results. Giving up a few hours on Saturday afternoon for double the trade-in value is worth it to me. (It was probably an hour to clean it up, less than an hour of dealing with calls/emails, and one person came to test drive it and bought it, which took about an hour. That's a pretty good hourly rate.)

[aurora]

Oct 1, 2014 18:08:37 GMT -5 Susie said:

Oct 1, 2014 17:26:48 GMT -5 M said:

So, my question is, can you afford $X payments for Y years? I feel like we need a Suze Orman 'Can I Afford It' segment here lol.

I was trying to preempt this in the OP when I mentioned we're currently putting a discretionary extra $1k/mo toward SLs.  As in, our budget has a very easy place to find a monthly car payment.

To be fair to the Jetta, it hasn't really needed much work lately.  We replaced rear brakes in 10/2013, and catalytic converter (that was a bigger one) in 12/2012.  I absolutely could buy a new set of tires this month, fix whatever needs fixing, and KOKO toward 200k miles.  The question is, do I WANT to?

Just from reading this thread, it sounds like you don't want to keep your current car, and that's OK.

Two years ago, we sold our 12-year-old old Subaru Legacy not because it had any huge problems but because we wanted a new Outback.  We'd been saving for a new car for a long time and were able to buy it outright. 

Then a year ago, we had just had some major cash outlays when the transmission on our 2002 Tacoma bit the dust.  We technically could have afforded a new truck, but after doing some evaluation we decided we'd rather spend $4k on a new transmission and keep it for another 5 years then spend $30k+ to buy one.  So, I guess we've been on both sides of the decision, and I'm honestly happy in both cases.

[Deleted]

Hey Susie what about a new.to you 2011 or 2012? Food for thought. Could be a way to have ur cake and eat it too.

[WinterWine]

I'm with @shoegal in the car camp. I work in the automotive industry and would never buy a new car... It's just not my thing. If you are wanting a newer at but can't quite stomach the cost, used is great alternative- a 1-3 yr old car will have already hit the peak of its depreciation curve.

[Susie]

Oct 1, 2014 21:59:17 GMT -5 @shoegal said:

Hey Susie what about a new.to you 2011 or 2012? Food for thought. Could be a way to have ur cake and eat it too.

I would totally be down with that, if I could find what I want:  TDI Jetta Sportwagen, manual transmission, one of about half the colors, sunroof, no nav.  It's just not a frequent flier on the certified preowned list.

All of our past few cars have been either certified pre-owned or just pre-owned.

[mainelyfoolish]

I tend to be very frugal with cars, as a lot of people on MM are. But my DH has convinced me that it's ok, if you have the means, to replace your car before it completely falls into pieces. Very few people will judge you for replacing an eleven year old car. When making monetary decisions, don't forget to take into account your utility in getting a nicer car.

[Deleted]

Ditto previous posters whom have pointed out VW's 0% financing. We bought a new Jetta sportwagen in 2014 and have loooooved it!