I think that's a human rights violation. Trapping healthy people in an outbreak zone, I mean. I am wondering why we don't refuse to fly commercial planes TO Ebola affected areas, though.
Hold me. And dumb question (or logic). Why haven't we banned flights / passengers from West Africa?
This is what I asked last night in the other thread. The US is so fucking lax about customs security and enforcement. You would think a disease like this would be enough for us to step it up. Apparently not. This is what I find the most disturbing of anything- the fact that our country won't go through basic security measures to protect citizens.
I think that's a human rights violation. Trapping healthy people in an outbreak zone, I mean. I am wondering why we don't refuse to fly commercial planes TO Ebola affected areas, though.
It should be both. Flights should be halted to infected areas and a ban should be put in place for any non-citizens trying to come in. If it is a citizen, there should be a quarantine hold or something in place. Communicable diseases are not a joke. I don't understand why they wouldn't take this more seriously.
Eta: I don't *know* anything for certain, but I would be willing to bet Australia and New Zealand have measures in place for this. Those countries actually care about their border security.
Hold me. And dumb question (or logic). Why haven't we banned flights / passengers from West Africa?
You cannot ban flights / passengers to and from West Africa. They desperately need the help of people on the outside to help contain this. You can't bar US citizens from editing and entering their own country. Now, there are some airlines that are not flying to and from the affected countries, but Nairobi is a hub and it's easy, albeit exhausting, to travel to any country in Africa from there.
I cannot repeat this enough. This is not a cause for concern for the US as a whole.
You really piss me off on this issue regularly, I feel like.
There are very few direct flights from W. Africa to the States. 95% of them go through Europe. I would hope that the health ministries have screenings in place as people deplane (similar to pandemic flu protcols) and he just slipped through due to incubation periods. It would be insanely difficult, both logistically and politically, for CDC to do anything to planes coming from Europe. And, yes, quarantining entire flights is completely inappropriate.
Hold me. And dumb question (or logic). Why haven't we banned flights / passengers from West Africa?
You cannot ban flights / passengers to and from West Africa. They desperately need the help of people on the outside to help contain this. You can't bar US citizens from editing and entering their own country. Now, there are some airlines that are not flying to and from the affected countries, but Nairobi is a hub and it's easy, albeit exhausting, to travel to any country in Africa from there.
I cannot repeat this enough. This is not a cause for concern for the US as a whole.
You really piss me off on this issue regularly, I feel like.
My biggest concern at this point is that diseases can morph in how they are passed from person to person. Currently, this isn't an airborne risk, so there's significantly less risk in general that a healthy person would be infected. But, what happens if the disease evolves? I realize this doesn't happen overnight, but pandemics are a real thing. If it were that easy to contain, west Africa wouldn't be in the position they currently are. Banning flights may not be the answer, but it would seem that we have almost zero security measures in place for travelers coming in and out of these areas. Shouldn't that be something we focus on through border security and customs to help ensure that healthy people aren't being infected and sick ones are receiving treatment in a confined area?
To be clear, I'm not advocating for a ban at all. I'm just not sure what the solution is, or if there is one. I want aid workers to be able to get there. We've got troops that are going to be going as well. I'd hate to shut it down....
So the latest (according to the Today Show) is Duncan went to a hospital in Dallas on Sunday. The hospital turned him away with abx despite him telling the hospital he traveled from WestA. His cousin had to call the CDC out of concern.
I'm just flabbergasted at the lack of common sense there.
I'm paranoid about Ebola but I wouldn't say I'm petrified or anything. But who wouldn't be slightly concerned?
DR Oz thinks there is a good chance that (as flu season comes on) that it presents so similarity to Ebola that doctors won't be able to discern the difference. That really gave me some HUGE pause.
If it were that easy to contain, west Africa wouldn't be in the position they currently are.
You really cannot compare the health systems in west Africa to the health systems in place in America.
No, of course. I completely understand that. But the course of action here has been a little crazy. He presented himself and was turned away. What is that about? If we choose not to take risk seriously, both through border security and our health systems, then we aren't doing what we are capable of to help contain this.
I don't think there should be a full ban or anything, but there's a reason diseases spread. We really should be working harder to find ways of protecting anyone coming into the country from an infected area (via Europe or anywhere else), and that means increased security measures throughout.
Hold me. And dumb question (or logic). Why haven't we banned flights / passengers from West Africa?
You cannot ban flights / passengers to and from West Africa. They desperately need the help of people on the outside to help contain this. You can't bar US citizens from editing and entering their own country. Now, there are some airlines that are not flying to and from the affected countries, but Nairobi is a hub and it's easy, albeit exhausting, to travel to any country in Africa from there.
I cannot repeat this enough. This is not a cause for concern for the US as a whole. .
I'm with you on this, and I really think the media is doing a huge disservice to the public by blasting it the way that they are (shocking, I know).
Hold me. And dumb question (or logic). Why haven't we banned flights / passengers from West Africa?
This is what I asked last night in the other thread. The US is so fucking lax about customs security and enforcement. You would think a disease like this would be enough for us to step it up. Apparently not. This is what I find the most disturbing of anything- the fact that our country won't go through basic security measures to protect citizens.
What? I am side eyeing hard right now.
When was the last time you went through customs and immigration in a US airport? Last time I did so they totally grilled a family that had a piece of fruit for their toddler.
I haven't been to Oz or NZ but I've been to plenty of other places and I've never encountered customs or immigration as strict as in the US. And I'm a US citizen! I'm sure I don't even see the half of it.
This is what I asked last night in the other thread. The US is so fucking lax about customs security and enforcement. You would think a disease like this would be enough for us to step it up. Apparently not. This is what I find the most disturbing of anything- the fact that our country won't go through basic security measures to protect citizens.
What? I am side eyeing hard right now.
When was the last time you went through customs and immigration in a US airport? Last time I did so they totally grilled a family that had a piece of fruit for their toddler.
I haven't been to Oz or NZ but I've been to plenty of other places and I've never encountered customs or immigration as strict as in the US. And I'm a US citizen! I'm sure I don't even see the half of it.
Well, I went through from New Zealand in 2011 and I literally was not asked a single question. We had cheese, wine, and a couple other food items (all declared). I asked the customs officer if they wanted to inspect anything and he said no and waved me through. And compared to those counties we truly are much more relaxed about customs enforcement.
Eta: that wasn't clear. I went through customs in LA after returning from NZ.
You cannot ban flights / passengers to and from West Africa. They desperately need the help of people on the outside to help contain this. You can't bar US citizens from editing and entering their own country. Now, there are some airlines that are not flying to and from the affected countries, but Nairobi is a hub and it's easy, albeit exhausting, to travel to any country in Africa from there.
I cannot repeat this enough. This is not a cause for concern for the US as a whole.
You really piss me off on this issue regularly, I feel like.
My biggest concern at this point is that diseases can morph in how they are passed from person to person. Currently, this isn't an airborne risk, so there's significantly less risk in general that a healthy person would be infected. But, what happens if the disease evolves? I realize this doesn't happen overnight, but pandemics are a real thing. If it were that easy to contain, west Africa wouldn't be in the position they currently are. Banning flights may not be the answer, but it would seem that we have almost zero security measures in place for travelers coming in and out of these areas. Shouldn't that be something we focus on through border security and customs to help ensure that healthy people aren't being infected and sick ones are receiving treatment in a confined area?
Lack of health systems and cultural practices are the reason that it hasn't been as contained as well. Can't compare that to the U.S. at all.
People obsessing about this going airborne are misdirecting fear. Yes, diseases change, but has anyone freaked over HIV/AIDS potentially going airborne in the last 30 years?!
When was the last time you went through customs and immigration in a US airport? Last time I did so they totally grilled a family that had a piece of fruit for their toddler.
I haven't been to Oz or NZ but I've been to plenty of other places and I've never encountered customs or immigration as strict as in the US. And I'm a US citizen! I'm sure I don't even see the half of it.
Well, I went through from New Zealand in 2011 and I literally was not asked a single question. We had cheese, wine, and a couple other food items (all declared). I asked the customs officer if they wanted to inspect anything and he said no and waved me through. And compared to those counties we truly are much more relaxed about customs enforcement.
No. You are just wrong, sorry. Them not questioning your declared food items one time doesn't mean the US is super lax and anything goes. Try flying into MIA sometime. Better yet, try flying into MIA with brown skin. US customs and immigration is the bane of everyone else's existence.
Worrying about Ebola becoming airborne is essentially like worrying that cockroach waste will become poisonous. Is it possible due to a rapid reproduction rate and steady stream of opportunities for mutation? Sure. It's it likely in any capacity? No.
Mutation is not an active process. It isn't driven by need. It's completely random, passive. When a mutation HAPPENS to be advantageous to an organism it is literally a happy accident.
Post by W.T.Faulkner on Oct 2, 2014 7:15:02 GMT -5
While I understand that ebola is terrifying, I don't think enough faith is being placed in the sophistication of our health system and isolation plans. We are not going to get to the point where this will be considered an outbreak; I just can't see it happening.
LOL at Dr. Oz, too. He's like the Wikipedia of medical knowledge, except with less valuable information.
Well, I went through from New Zealand in 2011 and I literally was not asked a single question. We had cheese, wine, and a couple other food items (all declared). I asked the customs officer if they wanted to inspect anything and he said no and waved me through. And compared to those counties we truly are much more relaxed about customs enforcement.
No. You are just wrong, sorry. Them not questioning your declared food items one time doesn't mean the US is super lax and anything goes. Try flying into MIA sometime. Better yet, try flying into MIA with brown skin. US customs and immigration is the bane of everyone else's existence.
Interesting that Dr Oz thinks the flu presents with vomiting, abdominal pain, and diarrhea. Interesting indeed.
Honestly, I just reviewed my hospitals Ebola plan and it is quite clear that there wouldn't be a mix up. We would look at patients with any of the main symptoms (yes there are few that overlap with flu) however there are further criteria:
Exposure to one or more of the following risk factors within 21 days before onset of symptoms:
A) high risk: direct contact with bodily fluids of someone with confirmed Ebola
B) low risk: travel to area of active Ebola transmission, casual contact (close proximity) with ebola patient.
I mean, I didn't really need to type this all out to prove how idiotic his statement was.
ETA: grammar and punctuation are hard while battling the keyboard with sausage fingers. Please be kind.
Thank you underwaterrhymes. I can't even begin to rationally respond to some of this.
-arrived on a flight from an Ebola effected country (1 case) 21 days ago and I would burn shit down if you got your way and didn't let me into my own fucking country.
Fortunately for some of those folks, I'm in meetings for most of the day
I was just going to say Atlanta has many flights from West Africa which land at the same time as the Brazil flights( ask me how I know) and we haven't had any issues.
You cannot ban flights / passengers to and from West Africa. They desperately need the help of people on the outside to help contain this. You can't bar US citizens from editing and entering their own country. Now, there are some airlines that are not flying to and from the affected countries, but Nairobi is a hub and it's easy, albeit exhausting, to travel to any country in Africa from there.
I cannot repeat this enough. This is not a cause for concern for the US as a whole.
You really piss me off on this issue regularly, I feel like.
My biggest concern at this point is that diseases can morph in how they are passed from person to person. Currently, this isn't an airborne risk, so there's significantly less risk in general that a healthy person would be infected. But, what happens if the disease evolves? I realize this doesn't happen overnight, but pandemics are a real thing. If it were that easy to contain, west Africa wouldn't be in the position they currently are. Banning flights may not be the answer, but it would seem that we have almost zero security measures in place for travelers coming in and out of these areas. Shouldn't that be something we focus on through border security and customs to help ensure that healthy people aren't being infected and sick ones are receiving treatment in a confined area?
This is not an airborne illness, nor are we in any danger of it imminently becoming one.
I'm not a scientist, so I cannot explain how and why mutation happens. However, we have a number of people on this board who are better versed than I am on this topic who can.
I do, however, work in international development and public health.
It's important to point out that not all of West Africa has been hit as hard as Liberia, Sierra Leone, and Guinea. (Only Senegal and Nigeria have seen cases as well, and they've managed to prevent it from spreading.) Liberia and Sierra Leone have been hardest hit.
You should also understand that this outbreak is different because usually Ebola outbreaks originate in more rural areas. In this case, the outbreak originated in a border area of Guinea, got out of control quickly, and spread across borders. This is highly unusual - it's generally pretty contained to one area - and is why things are so grim this time around.
Also of importance, the symptoms of Ebola mimic many other diseases - including malaria - that are prevalent throughout these countries. So people commonly mistake it for other illnesses. People frequently visit witch doctors for "cures" and often misunderstand how Ebola is spread, as well as how it must be treated and precautionary measures that are necessary to prevent others from getting it. There is also the disbelief that the disease actually exists, largely due to my next point.
These countries have valid and strong reasons for mistrusting both the government and foreigners given their suffering at the hands of both throughout the years. They are seeing people come in what amounts to giant space suits and take away their loved ones. They are unable to care for them or to touch them or to even speak with them. And then, when their loved ones die, they cannot venerate the body because this is one of the way the disease spreads. However, it's a huge part of their culture to do this. So people are hiding the fact that they are ill and caring for their loved ones in secret.
Please do understand the capacity of these countries. They lack many of the resources we take for granted. They did not and do not have enough medical professionals or beds or medicine to handle this on their own. They still have women developing fistulas during labor and people suffering from malaria and typhoid and hepatitis and AIDS. These illnesses did not go away. They are, simply put, overwhelmed.
Finally, the international medical and public health communities were urging other countries' governments (including the US) to take this more seriously far sooner than they did. Had we stepped in with government aid sooner, they might not be in this situation today.
THAT is why we are not in any danger of things getting to that point here.
And LOfuckingL at Dr. Oz claiming this has similar symptoms to the flu. Way to spread fear and appear like a dumbass at the same time, dude.
To be fair, early symptoms of ebola are sudden onset of fever, fatigue, muscle pain, headache, and sore throat. So yes, those are easily confused with other illnesses and easy to dismiss as no big deal.
So something I have been curious about, was why this patient wasn't screaming from the rooftops that he was coming from Liberia when admitted in the ER. Was there a language barrier? Or maybe he was really sick and just wasn't functioning enough to continue to alert people? Obviously there is a ton of blame for the hospital, but I am suprised that the patient wasn't OMGGGGG EBOLA I HAZ ITTTTTT.
There are very few direct flights from W. Africa to the States. 95% of them go through Europe. I would hope that the health ministries have screenings in place as people deplane (similar to pandemic flu protcols) and he just slipped through due to incubation periods. It would be insanely difficult, both logistically and politically, for CDC to do anything to planes coming from Europe. And, yes, quarantining entire flights is completely inappropriate.
This is the part that scares me. Even if you're not showing symptoms yet, shouldn't it have been asked, or relevant information to provide, that he cared for an Ebola victim four days prior, with direct hands-on care, and that (some reports indicate) a family member who was also present then also fell ill? I just can't understand how this type of information doesn't keep you off a plane out of the country. Then again, I'm guessing that if any of that info was provided to the Texas ER the first time, he would not have been sent home. So perhaps the traveler / patient isn't truthful either ... all the more reason the prescreening should be more stringent than just symptomatology. I agree you can't just quarantine a country but I think the air travel scenario needs to get tightened up for sure.
I think people who are at risk for Ebola and showing signs of illness are probably terrified and willing/hoping to accept a lesser diagnosis from health professionals. I wouldn't charge them with dishonestly; more like denial.