I know this is wrong, but my first reaction was what kind of fucked up part of Ohio do these people live in where THAT kid would be ostracized for her race.
She looks what H and I refer to (TIC) as "ambiguously brown." Which is how H also looks and he is often mistaken for a Greek, Spaniard, half-South Asian and lots of other things he is not.
LOL Yes, ambiguously brown. Apparently, it's the fucked up part that accepts lesbians.
Also, look at that woman's hair. I know I ain't shit for this but you're telling me the neighborhood they live in is so fucking fancy that they don't like tinted people but they're a-okay with some Kate plus 8 striped badger shit she's got on her head?
I was expecting ladies like this
From what I've been told about the town they live in, it's not fancy but the exact opposite. Small town and fairly redneckish. A hairstyle like that would not even be looked at twice.
Okay, I'm going to put on my lawyer hat EVEN THOUGH I think this couple is fucked up in 99 different ways for saying anything about/suing anyone over that gorgeous child who didn't ask to be born, much less raised by people who wouldn't just be happy with her exactly how she is.
HOWEVER, I suspect this, like a wrongful birth action, is about nothing but using the only available legal vehicle to hold people who fucked up accountable. You can't have a case without damages, so they have to trump up a bunch of crap so that they're "damaged."
Do I think their time and efforts would've been better spent in loooongass negotiations with the sperm bank about accountability, working together to create procedures to prevent this in the future? YES. Do I think this is awful? YES. Would I take this case? FUCK NO. But I don't think that what they're saying for certain indicates that they won't provide a good home for their child and raise her with love and sensitivity--it doesn't speak well of that effort, but it's not necessarily diametrically opposed.
I know this is wrong, but my first reaction was what kind of fucked up part of Ohio do these people live in where THAT kid would be ostracized for her race.
She looks what H and I refer to (TIC) as "ambiguously brown." Which is how H also looks and he is often mistaken for a Greek, Spaniard, half-South Asian and lots of other things he is not.
I grew up within a 20-minute drive of Uniontown. It's a very white-bread sort of town (near a large-ish mennonite population), but to my knowledge they're not racist beyond the average. At least, I never got that impression.
But then, I went to school in a white-bread town that was considered as a racial "safe-haven" because our neighboring town was so racist there WERE flaming crosses - no joke. So perhaps (as an admittedly entitled/sheltered white teen) I didn't see the more subtle racisms b/c of the less subtle ones.
LOL Yes, ambiguously brown. Apparently, it's the fucked up part that accepts lesbians.
Also, look at that woman's hair. I know I ain't shit for this but you're telling me the neighborhood they live in is so fucking fancy that they don't like tinted people but they're a-okay with some Kate plus 8 striped badger shit she's got on her head?
I was expecting ladies like this
From what I've been told about the town they live in, it's not fancy but the exact opposite. Small town and fairly redneckish. A hairstyle like that would not even be looked at twice.
And holy hell, that kid is adorable.
Do you know what town it is? I went to school in that area of the state and am curious.
Cicero, I believe it's Uniontown. Which I fully admit I don't know much about, beyond how it's been described to me by a couple of college friends who lived there or near there.
Okay, I'm going to put on my lawyer hat EVEN THOUGH I think this couple is fucked up in 99 different ways for saying anything about/suing anyone over that gorgeous child who didn't ask to be born, much less raised by people who wouldn't just be happy with her exactly how she is.
HOWEVER, I suspect this, like a wrongful birth action, is about nothing but using the only available legal vehicle to hold people who fucked up accountable. You can't have a case without damages, so they have to trump up a bunch of crap so that they're "damaged."
Do I think their time and efforts would've been better spent in loooongass negotiations with the sperm bank about accountability, working together to create procedures to prevent this in the future? YES. Do I think this is awful? YES. Would I take this case? FUCK NO. But I don't think that what they're saying for certain indicates that they won't provide a good home for their child and raise her with love and sensitivity--it doesn't speak well of that effort, but it's not necessarily diametrically opposed.
I'm not a lawyer so I'm curious. Was this really the only way to go about proving damages? Couldn't focusing on the outcomes for black children in the country, the disadvantages they face, the steps the parents would have to take to overcome those odds, and the associated costs also prove damages?
I guess I'm wondering if there was a more clinical method for claiming damages than "dude, that lady mentioned black sperm and I said, hell no, can't you see we're white?"
Look at that! An entire website dedicated to teaching white folks to do their brown baby's hair.
There are billboards in LA for mixed chicks brand haircare products. My H even remarked about one because the little girl was so darn cute (he's finally feeling broody like me, lol).
Okay, I'm going to put on my lawyer hat EVEN THOUGH I think this couple is fucked up in 99 different ways for saying anything about/suing anyone over that gorgeous child who didn't ask to be born, much less raised by people who wouldn't just be happy with her exactly how she is.
HOWEVER, I suspect this, like a wrongful birth action, is about nothing but using the only available legal vehicle to hold people who fucked up accountable. You can't have a case without damages, so they have to trump up a bunch of crap so that they're "damaged."
Do I think their time and efforts would've been better spent in loooongass negotiations with the sperm bank about accountability, working together to create procedures to prevent this in the future? YES. Do I think this is awful? YES. Would I take this case? FUCK NO. But I don't think that what they're saying for certain indicates that they won't provide a good home for their child and raise her with love and sensitivity--it doesn't speak well of that effort, but it's not necessarily diametrically opposed.
I'm not a lawyer so I'm curious. Was this really the only way to go about proving damages? Couldn't focusing on the outcomes for black children in the country, the disadvantages they face, the steps the parents would have to take to overcome those odds, and the associated costs also prove damages?
I guess I'm wondering if there was a more clinical method for claiming damages than "dude, that lady mentioned black sperm and I said, hell no, can't you see we're white?"
Too speculative, to removed wrt time. The damages would be to the child, not the parents. The child may be able to bring her own action when she's 18 but by then a lot of the evidence will probably be gone.
Wrongful birth actions are always awful. I'd say they should all be addressed through confidential alternative dispute resolution, but then we'd get no case law to interpret the statutes. I half wonder if their lawyers hope to make precedent from this case.
I'm not a lawyer so I'm curious. Was this really the only way to go about proving damages? Couldn't focusing on the outcomes for black children in the country, the disadvantages they face, the steps the parents would have to take to overcome those odds, and the associated costs also prove damages?
I guess I'm wondering if there was a more clinical method for claiming damages than "dude, that lady mentioned black sperm and I said, hell no, can't you see we're white?"
Too speculative, to removed wrt time. The damages would be to the child, not the parents. The child may be able to bring her own action when she's 18 but by then a lot of the evidence will probably be gone.
Wrongful birth actions are always awful. I'd say they should all be addressed through confidential alternative dispute resolution, but then we'd get no case law to interpret the statutes. I half wonder if their lawyers hope to make precedent from this case.
*ETA: still not a lawyer, just trying to recall my remedies class/speculating.
Okay, I'm going to put on my lawyer hat EVEN THOUGH I think this couple is fucked up in 99 different ways for saying anything about/suing anyone over that gorgeous child who didn't ask to be born, much less raised by people who wouldn't just be happy with her exactly how she is.
HOWEVER, I suspect this, like a wrongful birth action, is about nothing but using the only available legal vehicle to hold people who fucked up accountable. You can't have a case without damages, so they have to trump up a bunch of crap so that they're "damaged."
Do I think their time and efforts would've been better spent in loooongass negotiations with the sperm bank about accountability, working together to create procedures to prevent this in the future? YES. Do I think this is awful? YES. Would I take this case? FUCK NO. But I don't think that what they're saying for certain indicates that they won't provide a good home for their child and raise her with love and sensitivity--it doesn't speak well of that effort, but it's not necessarily diametrically opposed.
I'm not a lawyer so I'm curious. Was this really the only way to go about proving damages? Couldn't focusing on the outcomes for black children in the country, the disadvantages they face, the steps the parents would have to take to overcome those odds, and the associated costs also prove damages?
I guess I'm wondering if there was a more clinical method for claiming damages than "dude, that lady mentioned black sperm and I said, hell no, can't you see we're white?"
I'm not trying to blow you off here, but I have some meetings and crap so this'll be quick. I have not read their complaint and I'm not sure exactly what they're alleging so I'm also making this up and haven't researched this so I'm relying on memory. LOL.
I read that they're claiming breach of warranty (not sure if that's true). If so, generally speaking (VERY GENERALLY), then they have to show a warranty, a breach, and damages resulting from the breach. The party that breached the warranty (i.e., the sperm bank) is only liable for foreseeable damages to the OTHER party to the agreement (i.e., the parents in this case). Something like "wow, I am super sad that I ended up with a baby that was not like I'd expected and have to move to better parent THIS child" is more "foreseeable" (arguably) and measurable that is "in the world as a whole, biracial and black children face greater hurdles than do children who are white."
I'm not trying to blow you off here, but I have some meetings and crap so this'll be quick. I have not read their complaint and I'm not sure exactly what they're alleging so I'm also making this up and haven't researched this so I'm relying on memory. LOL.
I read that they're claiming breach of warranty (not sure if that's true). If so, generally speaking (VERY GENERALLY), then they have to show a warranty, a breach, and damages resulting from the breach. The party that breached the warranty (i.e., the sperm bank) is only liable for foreseeable damages to the OTHER party to the agreement (i.e., the parents in this case). Something like "wow, I am super sad that I ended up with a baby that was not like I'd expected and have to move to better parent THIS child" is more "foreseeable" (arguably) and measurable that is "in the world as a whole, biracial and black children face greater hurdles than do children who are white."
The filing is in the other thread. I can dig it out if you'd like to see it. I didn't think you were blowing me off, I promise. I'm just genuinely curious.
In other wrongful birth cases, we've seen parents discuss the increased medical costs, anticipation of long term care, etc. So it made me wonder if they couldn't have gone with explaining the issues this child would face in their neighborhood in more concrete terms. I guess more in support of the why they needed to move.
Maybe those details are filling in with later depositions or something? I'm obviously not sure lol.
But I would think you could make a case that said this is what this child's opportunities are in this neighborhood vs what they are in the neighborhood we want you to pay us damages that we will use to move to.
Seriously, where is this place that is completely accepting of lesbians but not of an Ambiguously Brown TM baby???
Who released her photo?? The moms?? Because that is seriously messed up. I don't understand what they're trying to accomplish here.
Also that baby is SO adorable omg.
They want $ to get out of wherever they live. And the sperm tech or whatever, misread the labels with 330 vs 380 ? Was it written in sharpie then got wet? I feel like something this important would have some checks and balances, no? When I went through my five ART cycles, the amount of double and triple checking every step of the way that it truly was Dh sperm was almost overkill, but this clinic doesn't check the #? Or if a 3 looks like an 8, ask a co worker for their opinion on the #? Or get glasses?
Either way, I find it extremely hard to believe their community is super open to lesbian couples, but draws the line at a mixed race baby. Cut it out. They can't afford to relocate and want the clinic to pick up the tab. I mean, yeah, the clinic screwed up, but just say that in the lawsuit. Don't make like it's to relocate bc you have a mixed baby.
I hope this little darling never googles her fool parents.
You can tell the issue is race by the woman getting choked up that they wouldn't trade their daughter for the world. There is something going on by either her partner or one of their families.
I do think the facility has some fault too. But they should handle this quietly, maybe getting some of their money back which they can put in a college fund or something.
The fact is, there is no way two women can have a child that is just of them. So you shrug your shoulders and say, well I guess the dad was brown. And you stare at whoever you are explaining the situation to, using your eyes to say, what? You got a problem with that?
She looks sweet and loved and I hope that is how she feels as she grows up.
You can tell the issue is race by the woman getting choked up that they wouldn't trade their daughter for the world. There is something going on by either her partner or one of their families.
I do think the facility has some fault too. But they should handle this quietly, maybe getting some of their money back which they can put in a college fund or something.
The fact is, there is no way two women can have a child that is just of them. So you shrug your shoulders and say, well I guess the dad was brown. And you stare at whoever you are explaining the situation to, using your eyes to say, what? You got a problem with that?
She looks sweet and loved and I hope that is how she feels as she grows up.
I think I read they got their $ back from the facility. I also recall reading that the facility hung up on her when they realized the employee mistook the 3 for an 8 ( or vice versa). Omg imagine that.
You can tell the issue is race by the woman getting choked up that they wouldn't trade their daughter for the world. There is something going on by either her partner or one of their families.
I do think the facility has some fault too. But they should handle this quietly, maybe getting some of their money back which they can put in a college fund or something.
The fact is, there is no way two women can have a child that is just of them. So you shrug your shoulders and say, well I guess the dad was brown. And you stare at whoever you are explaining the situation to, using your eyes to say, what? You got a problem with that?
She looks sweet and loved and I hope that is how she feels as she grows up.
the underlying issue is that the only way we're going to get reasonable regulation of the Donor Gamete market is for people to bring these cases to force the companies or the government to step in and regulate it. Right now it's basically a free for all and that leads to a number of problems. So while yes the actual issue in this case is on the surface NBD the greater problem it is addressing is important. As distasteful as these cases are it's the best way to force some regulations or at the very least better safe guards.
Post by cinnamoncox on Oct 6, 2014 10:52:27 GMT -5
@cookiemonster03 From what I recall reading, they learned of the mix up when they calked the bank to order/pay for the rest of that donor so they could have more kids. So I think they already had the baby. Unless I misread and they called to order more before she was even born, but it don't think that was the timeline.
cinnamoncox soooo they didn't notice and didn't care until they were told? that's judgeworthy.
It is really weird to happen in the first place - I mean I have to verify my donor number like 4 times (literally, including reading the vial itself) for IUIs, plus a couple of times during the ordering process.
I'll delete anything if you want me to, you didn't say don't quote but let me know I'll delete the quote if you want.
From my recollection, the person at the bank mistook a 3 for an 8. On the records. So they ordered 330 but got 380 ( or vice versa I forget which was what they wanted). And when they called to get the rest for future children, they said hi we want the rest if 330 and person on phone said you mean 380, and so that's how it was discovered. I forget how long between the birth of their daughter to when they found out. They didn't notice and call and say was there a mix up, no. They only calked and found out because they wanted more of the same.
No. She called up somewhere near the end of her pregnancy to buy more vials. They had always intended to have more children and wanted them all to have the same genetic match. She basically said to the donor bank, hey, ship my clinic some more of that stuff we got before and the receptionist said, oh, the 330, right? Black baby sperm?
She said, what? No, heifer, why would we want black baby sperm, we're white! We had 380."
Receptionist said, ooohhhhhh, uhm.
And mom said, oh, we're getting a swirl baby (TM @soudesafinado).
But yeah, they found out it was the wrong stuff before the baby was born iirc. The filing is available online.
I'll delete anything if you want me to, you didn't say don't quote but let me know I'll delete the quote if you want.
From my recollection, the person at the bank mistook a 3 for an 8. On the records. So they ordered 330 but got 380 ( or vice versa I forget which was what they wanted). And when they called to get the rest for future children, they said hi we want the rest if 330 and person on phone said you mean 380, and so that's how it was discovered. I forget how long between the birth of their daughter to when they found out. They didn't notice and call and say was there a mix up, no. They only calked and found out because they wanted more of the same.
I think that's really weird - the day of the IUI I have to sign like 20 labels for the lab, plus I have to READ THE ACTUAL vial and confirm the number is right.
no worries on the quote. no big secret I'm gay
Lol I know, I just meant like for googling in case idk just trying to be nice
I think it's weird too. I've gone through a back to back IUI and four rounds of IVF. The amount of triple checking that went on was very thorough. And Dh was right there too, we both had to verify and sign off, etc. it was the 3 looking like an 8 to one person, so there seems to have been zero confirmation.
I'll delete anything if you want me to, you didn't say don't quote but let me know I'll delete the quote if you want.
From my recollection, the person at the bank mistook a 3 for an 8. On the records. So they ordered 330 but got 380 ( or vice versa I forget which was what they wanted). And when they called to get the rest for future children, they said hi we want the rest if 330 and person on phone said you mean 380, and so that's how it was discovered. I forget how long between the birth of their daughter to when they found out. They didn't notice and call and say was there a mix up, no. They only calked and found out because they wanted more of the same.
I think that's really weird - the day of the IUI I have to sign like 20 labels for the lab, plus I have to READ THE ACTUAL vial and confirm the number is right.
cinnamoncox I just looked back and the donor number is all over my paperwork from the bank too. The receipt, the shipping notice. Really makes me side eye.
I wonder if it's some unaccredited bank or something? And you're so organized for having all the paperwork at the ready! I may or may not have a recipe written on the back of my suppository instructions form :/ Eta: progesterone suppositories lol
cinnamoncox I just looked back and the donor number is all over my paperwork from the bank too. The receipt, the shipping notice. Really makes me side eye.
That's why I can't figure out why they are only suing the donor bank and not the clinic too.
I'm not trying to blow you off here, but I have some meetings and crap so this'll be quick. I have not read their complaint and I'm not sure exactly what they're alleging so I'm also making this up and haven't researched this so I'm relying on memory. LOL.
I read that they're claiming breach of warranty (not sure if that's true). If so, generally speaking (VERY GENERALLY), then they have to show a warranty, a breach, and damages resulting from the breach. The party that breached the warranty (i.e., the sperm bank) is only liable for foreseeable damages to the OTHER party to the agreement (i.e., the parents in this case). Something like "wow, I am super sad that I ended up with a baby that was not like I'd expected and have to move to better parent THIS child" is more "foreseeable" (arguably) and measurable that is "in the world as a whole, biracial and black children face greater hurdles than do children who are white."
The filing is in the other thread. I can dig it out if you'd like to see it. I didn't think you were blowing me off, I promise. I'm just genuinely curious.
In other wrongful birth cases, we've seen parents discuss the increased medical costs, anticipation of long term care, etc. So it made me wonder if they couldn't have gone with explaining the issues this child would face in their neighborhood in more concrete terms. I guess more in support of the why they needed to move.
Maybe those details are filling in with later depositions or something? I'm obviously not sure lol.
But I would think you could make a case that said this is what this child's opportunities are in this neighborhood vs what they are in the neighborhood we want you to pay us damages that we will use to move to.
Oh, hai. This thread is back!
I read the filing and they are suing for breach of warranty so my earlier analysis of that applies.
As for what they've said in the complaint, a complaint is supposed to be "a short and plain statement" of the facts and the legal bases for each claim (often referred to as "counts")--"short and plain statement" is literally in the federal rules and many states' rules. So, yes, at the complaint stage they can be all "well, raising a black baby will be hard here and not fun and here's our one example of getting a haircut" as part of their short and plain statement. Then LATER they go on to uncover and/or present evidence (expert testimony, etc.) about why it will be hard and not fun, and why the sperm bank should be answerable for those costs, etc.
And the sperm bank will likely respond to all of that evidence with a whole host of "reasons why the XYZ that you're talking about aren't out fault under the law." And that XYZ might be "costs necessary to overcome decreased number of life opportunities"and the "reasons" may be the sperm bank saying "yeah, sorry society sucks but that wasn't the result of our breaching the warranty and wasn't forseeable and is not traceable to our actions."
You can tell the issue is race by the woman getting choked up that they wouldn't trade their daughter for the world. There is something going on by either her partner or one of their families.
I do think the facility has some fault too. But they should handle this quietly, maybe getting some of their money back which they can put in a college fund or something.
The fact is, there is no way two women can have a child that is just of them. So you shrug your shoulders and say, well I guess the dad was brown. And you stare at whoever you are explaining the situation to, using your eyes to say, what? You got a problem with that?
She looks sweet and loved and I hope that is how she feels as she grows up.
the underlying issue is that the only way we're going to get reasonable regulation of the Donor Gamete market is for people to bring these cases to force the companies or the government to step in and regulate it. Right now it's basically a free for all and that leads to a number of problems. So while yes the actual issue in this case is on the surface NBD the greater problem it is addressing is important. As distasteful as these cases are it's the best way to force some regulations or at the very least better safe guards.
Thing is tho this same thing could have happened with 2 white donors and then they'd couldn't play the "I have to go to the black hair store" card. She could have had the blonde, blue eyed baby she'd always wanted with the wrong sperm. Then what would the "damages" have been??
Thing is tho this same thing could have happened with 2 white donors and then they'd couldn't play the "I have to go to the black hair store" card. She could have had the blonde, blue eyed baby she'd always wanted with the wrong sperm. Then what would the "damages" have been??
i like this question. Someone answer please!
I am not a lawyer, but perhaps emotional distress? It may have been a problem down the line as well, if they were THAT intent on getting the same genetic material. Maybe they picked the donor for other reasons, such as health?
They would still have paid for A, but have received B. If I paid $$$ for A, but ended up with B, then the company who I had a contract with to provide me A would still be held liable, right?
Like you said, I can't imagine they could be all, "Her hair is hard to style!!!11! Community isn't welcoming!!1!!" What could they even claim, other than they were given the wrong sperm?
**Not that I'm condoning their lawsuit at all. I feel awful for that poor little girl.