I think I need a pep talk

[Wines Not Whines]

I feel like Oscar the Grouch today, and while part of it is work related (there's some BS going on that I won't get into here), I think part of it's the post-marathon blues. I felt ok about everything until today. I think it's a combination of a few things:

1) I didn't meet ANY of my race goals on Sunday. I know I was capable of a PR, even if it was a tiny one, but I wasn't even close. I completely fell apart in the second half.

2) I feel pretty good about attempting a redemption race in a few weeks, but I don't know if I have the mental energy to plan for Richmond as Plan B, and then back out and switch to a Plan C if the weather in Richmond isn't good (the heat and sun killed me at MCM, so I wouldn't run another marathon unless the weather was better). I'm already mentally exhausted. I'm one of those people who lives and breathes by schedules and planning, and having this up in the air is making me anxious.

3) I also have no idea how to pace myself now, if I do another marathon. I've lost some confidence in my pacing.

I could use hair pats and any advice you may have.

[emilyinchile]

I know nothing about marathoning, but I can pat hair with the best of them!

Is there any way to delegate item 2? Like could you just tell your H that he's in charge of checking the weather, and if it's going to be above X then can he please rearrange hotels and entries and all that? I'm not sure if you're more stressed about the running part of moving to plan C or the other admin stuff.

[gt7301b]

The weather really wasn't ideal for a marathon. I've only run two marathons, but I've watched my share and it seemed like the temps and sun really did a number on people in the second half, more so than usual. Or maybe it was just the heat messing with my head

Can you attempt go with the flow and race Richmond anyway? Isn't this what you did last year?

I have no advice on pacing, but whoever says you can negative split a marathon is on something. My goal if I run another marathon would be to just be to work on getting my half times to be as close to even as possible.

Even though the time wasn't what you wanted you did great out there, celebrate that you are once again a MARATHONER!!

[mrshandy]

You're two days out. Your feelings are completely normal. You're exhausted (you did run a marathon), but you're disappointed all the same. It was not an ideal racing day. That sun was brutal. I don't think you will have the same bad weather. Have you been on Accuweather? I would just base it on that if you really want to commit. I'm already looking up the weather for my race. LOL. Looks good, for the most part.

I would squeeze in at least one marathon pace long run before your race. Those have really boosted my confidence in my ability to hit my pace.

A week later and going to Philly will really decrease your likelihood of warm weather.

[ebeth]

I'm right there with you girl. Except the part about a redemption race. Training for 5 months just to have a bad day? Who needs it? I'm retiring from marathons.

[runblondie26]

Hugs. I agree with ebeth. There's special type of pressure that goes along with marathons, knowing you get on shot and there's so much that can go awry even with the best planning.

If you're physically up for another marathon, then we'll all be here to root for you and give you all the pep-talks you can handle!

[clseale]

I'm sorry. Care to share your pacing and goals with us? How did this training cycle look versus your other training cycles? How did you settle on your goals? This might help us try and figure out if a mistake was made, but really, as much as it sucks, sometimes it's not just not our day. It flat out blows when that day falls on race day, but sometimes there isn't a reason. (At least not one that's in your control.)

So many hair pats.

[runblondie26]

I'd give a thumbs up to the Philly marathon too. Historically, the weather is perfect. Low 40's to start, mid 50's to end, sunny and dry. Relatively flat, and good crowd support, especially through those final 6 miles.

(I've run Philly 3 times. It's my fav next to Boston).

[chitownbelle]

Everything @vtcupcake said. I was in camp disappointment last year too, so know how you must feel, but have no advice regarding which redemption race to attempt. Lots of hair pats and hugs for you!! Take a few days off to relax, and best of luck figuring out a game plan!


(Don't give up, ebeth!!)

[cinco]

My H has commented that my electrolytes must still be off b/c I am crankier than usual. Jerk I do think there is something to that though. I feel a bit of the blues for no particular reason.

The weather was not so great Sunday. Don't be too hard on yourself. It got to most of us. I'll never think of the 14th street bridge with out inwardly cringing again. Argh.

I had a hard time mentally after my disaster of a performance in my Spring marathon. I thought about a redemption race, but the chances of better weather in May seemed slim. In the end I knew I had a good training cycle, so I waited to heal and then went after my 5k goal. I signed up for a few b/c I wasn't sure how long it would take. If you aren't ready to tackle a marathon, maybe try for a PR in a different distance? It did help ease the pain for me, but I still had quite a few demons to fight over the course of marathon training this Summer and Fall. It's a part of running I struggle with. I love racing, but some of the self doubt that goes along with it is not so great.

Hair pats. We get it. Feel free to use us as your sounding board.

[Wines Not Whines]

Thanks for the hair pats. They're helping.

As far as pacing:

I trained with a pace group that was "supposed" to get us to a 4-hour finish time, and I ran the paces they prescribed in training, but I knew I didn't have a sub-4 in me unless it was a truly perfect day. I was aiming for something between 4:05-4:10, between 9:15-9:25 pace. Last year I ran 4:14 at MCM and 4:11 at Richmond, and I felt better trained this year, so this seemed like a realistic goal to me. Long runs were done at 10 min/mile pace (give or take a few seconds), pace runs between 9-9:10, tempos at 8:25-8:30.

Also, during every fall marathon training cycle, I've run the same half marathon in mid-September. Last year I ran the half in around 1:53:30. This year I ran the half around 3 minutes faster, around 1:50:30 (8:27 pace, so right at my tempo run pace), under similar conditions as 2013 (same weather, etc.). Based on that, I thought it seemed realistic that I could PR by at least 5 minutes in the marathon.

I also ran more 20-milers this year, and ran some more challenging training runs (more hills, etc.), so I thought I was better prepared than I was last year. My total mileage was similar.

On Sunday, I knew the conditions were far less than ideal for me. I don't run well in the heat at all (and by "heat" I mean anything above the 50s - I sweat like crazy and get overheated quickly). I ran the first 2-3 miles pretty slow (around 9:40 pace) and then picked it up to 9:15-9:20 for the next few miles. The pace, by itself, didn't feel difficult, but I was getting really warm - too warm - and I knew it wasn't going to be sustainable for long. So around mile 7, I slowed it back down to 9:30-9:40 pace, which felt comfortable, and I hoped I could cruise along at that pace for a while. But after a while it all fell apart. I don't feel like I hit the "wall" as that term is usually used, but my problem was that I got severely dehydrated, and I couldn't get enough liquid back into me at the water stops.

I think 90% of the problem was the weather, but since I slowed down SO much in the second half, I'm also wondering if I set unrealistic pace goals. On paper, I still think everything sounds realistic, but it didn't feel realistic at all on Sunday.  

[ktzmoh]

I have no advice to give you. But I can give you hair pats and encouragement and remind you that you are a total rockstar. Give yourself a few more days to shake this one off. I'm a planner and prone to anxiety too, but look at the Richmond/Philly thing as an active plan rather than a point of ambiguity, and that might help. You can not control the weather for Richmond, but if mother nature decides to throw shitty conditions at you, you are giving yourself the power to respond by switching to philly.

[bostonmichelle]

I really don't have any advice for you besides lots of hair pats. You are amazing and still accomplished a lot.

I would probably wait another few days but probably sign up for Richmond and then have Philly as a backup plan if weather conditions aren't right. For what you have told us, I think you have it in you if it is not so warm. I know for myself that even at a 5k I can be 20 seconds/mile slower just to the heat vs my ideal running conditions. Also dehydration is no joke and maybe in the next few weeks you look into what went wrong and how you can fix that and maybe you will regain more control. I'm a control freak as well so I understand why you want to set Richmond vs Philly into place but I would just let it roll until Wed/Thurs the week of Richmond and go from there.

[clseale]

Well, crap. With that information, I think you were very reasonable in your expectations, and you just had an unfortunate day. It's almost easier to digest if there was a mistake made, but with your racing/training/pacing info, it doesn't sound like it. I tend to train closer to my MP, but you had a half PR in there that proved that you had indeed, gotten faster. I'm sorry. I'm the same way with humidity. Heat I can do, but if I get a humid morning, I am going to be absolutely screwed. I can't even do humidity if it's 40*. I think it goes back to the whole, "Run the race you're capable of on that day", but screw that crap. If in my head I know I'm capable of a certain pace, it's going to be pretty tough to resign myself to a much slower pace, just because I'm not feeling it that day.

The good news, if you're looking for it, is that you probably have good odds with a redemption race, and you don't have to keep training to take another shot at it. Basically, MCM was your peak run, and now you're just tapering back down (and weather stalking). ((hugs))

[Mushe]

I don't have marathon-specific advice, but have lots of hair pats. I agree with clseale that it sounds like it was a bad day, as opposed to any failure of training or pacing. Personally, I'd probably go for it, but I totally get what cupcake is saying re: how far will you go to chase a PR, and that only you can answer that.

[Wines Not Whines]

I also want to say thank you all for being supportive, and for being a great sounding board, and for not thinking I'm crazy. Most of my friends don't understand the mixed emotions I'm feeling and would probably think I'm being unreasonable and a little crazy. But I put a lot of effort into one day, and I want *something* to prove that it wasn't all for naught. Even if I don't meet my A goal, I would like some tangible acknowledgement that my 18 weeks of 6:30 am runs in the summer heat, early bedtimes, lack of friday night drinking, and general crankiness meant something.

[sadlebred]

I have no advice other than the usual have wine/chocolate/beer tonight. You deserve it!

[thom]

Big hugs. This is a tough time to come through. Maybe that sounds too dramatic, but we all get it. Usually I have the marathon blues even if I ran well, and I'm ready for training to be over. It's just a big let down after all the build up.

I do think you set realistic goals and unfortunately just had a rough day. I think it probably doubly stings because you ran so well last fall. I'm not saying you didn't work very hard for those two PR's last year, but things also must have come together really well health and weather-wise to set 2 PR's in three weeks.

I think to enjoy your redemption race you've got to set several layers of goals, acknowledge that some things will be out of your control, and try really hard to commit to one or the other soon. I know you'd like to wait it out and see weather forecasts, but having 2 irons in the fire would really stress me out too.

One more long thought...

Often, I ask myself what's the best that will happen if I do PR? Usually it means I'll be excited, and I'll get to AW here on H&F and on my blog. But I'll still just be a normal mid-pack runner. And I always will be. Maybe that's too dreary of an outlook, but it's true. I value running and improving, but if it starts to get all consuming I try to intentionally take time to think about perspective. If I start taking too much energy away from my H, my work, and my family or volunteer commitments for race goals I usually regret it. I want to train hard and go after goals, but it's a fine line. For example, many of you know that my mom has failing eyesight and other health challenges. If I don't make time to regularly talk to her and go visit, I regret that more than not getting in an extra race or killer long run. I'm sure all of you that are parents see this magnified even more as you balance training and racing with family time.

Only you can decide whether this next marathon is worth it for you. If your H is totally on board I think that makes the choice a lot easier. Good luck w/ the decision! I hope things at work even out too.

[ebeth]

Oct 28, 2014 10:44:58 GMT -5 Wines Not Whines said:

Thanks for the hair pats. They're helping.

As far as pacing:

I trained with a pace group that was "supposed" to get us to a 4-hour finish time, and I ran the paces they prescribed in training, but I knew I didn't have a sub-4 in me unless it was a truly perfect day. I was aiming for something between 4:05-4:10, between 9:15-9:25 pace. Last year I ran 4:14 at MCM and 4:11 at Richmond, and I felt better trained this year, so this seemed like a realistic goal to me. Long runs were done at 10 min/mile pace (give or take a few seconds), pace runs between 9-9:10, tempos at 8:25-8:30.

Also, during every fall marathon training cycle, I've run the same half marathon in mid-September. Last year I ran the half in around 1:53:30. This year I ran the half around 3 minutes faster, around 1:50:30 (8:27 pace, so right at my tempo run pace), under similar conditions as 2013 (same weather, etc.). Based on that, I thought it seemed realistic that I could PR by at least 5 minutes in the marathon.

I also ran more 20-milers this year, and ran some more challenging training runs (more hills, etc.), so I thought I was better prepared than I was last year. My total mileage was similar.

On Sunday, I knew the conditions were far less than ideal for me. I don't run well in the heat at all (and by "heat" I mean anything above the 50s - I sweat like crazy and get overheated quickly). I ran the first 2-3 miles pretty slow (around 9:40 pace) and then picked it up to 9:15-9:20 for the next few miles. The pace, by itself, didn't feel difficult, but I was getting really warm - too warm - and I knew it wasn't going to be sustainable for long. So around mile 7, I slowed it back down to 9:30-9:40 pace, which felt comfortable, and I hoped I could cruise along at that pace for a while. But after a while it all fell apart. I don't feel like I hit the "wall" as that term is usually used, but my problem was that I got severely dehydrated, and I couldn't get enough liquid back into me at the water stops.

I think 90% of the problem was the weather, but since I slowed down SO much in the second half, I'm also wondering if I set unrealistic pace goals. On paper, I still think everything sounds realistic, but it didn't feel realistic at all on Sunday.  

I don't think your goals were unrealistic. You had a bad day. Also, there is like zero shade in the back half of that course. The sun totally drained my life force Sunday.

My primary concern with a redemption race is whether or not you'll be recovered and in PR shape in three weeks. 26.2 too hot miles prob did a number on your body. I know I feel so much worse then I did after chicago where it was like 20 degrees colder.

MH actually brought up a really excellent point when I was being all emo about training for 18 weeks for 'nothing': why train for 18 weeks? The answer this time around is because I was super out if shape when I started, but if I keep a good base through the winter of like 40 mpw then I wouldn't 'need' 18 weeks next summer which would take away some of the sting of it didn't work out.

That's kind of rambly but hopefully you get where I'm going with this.

[mrshandy]

I agree that your goals weren't unrealistic. I would have not wanted to run on Sunday and probably would not have hit my goal (so I guess it's lucky I got rejected by the lottery). So don't beat yourself up.

Seriously, I think the weather will make so much difference in your next race and you will definitely do better. Give it a few more days and see how you feel.

[Wines Not Whines]

Oct 28, 2014 11:48:06 GMT -5 ebeth said:

Oct 28, 2014 10:44:58 GMT -5 Wines Not Whines said:

Thanks for the hair pats. They're helping.

As far as pacing:

I trained with a pace group that was "supposed" to get us to a 4-hour finish time, and I ran the paces they prescribed in training, but I knew I didn't have a sub-4 in me unless it was a truly perfect day. I was aiming for something between 4:05-4:10, between 9:15-9:25 pace. Last year I ran 4:14 at MCM and 4:11 at Richmond, and I felt better trained this year, so this seemed like a realistic goal to me. Long runs were done at 10 min/mile pace (give or take a few seconds), pace runs between 9-9:10, tempos at 8:25-8:30.

Also, during every fall marathon training cycle, I've run the same half marathon in mid-September. Last year I ran the half in around 1:53:30. This year I ran the half around 3 minutes faster, around 1:50:30 (8:27 pace, so right at my tempo run pace), under similar conditions as 2013 (same weather, etc.). Based on that, I thought it seemed realistic that I could PR by at least 5 minutes in the marathon.

I also ran more 20-milers this year, and ran some more challenging training runs (more hills, etc.), so I thought I was better prepared than I was last year. My total mileage was similar.

On Sunday, I knew the conditions were far less than ideal for me. I don't run well in the heat at all (and by "heat" I mean anything above the 50s - I sweat like crazy and get overheated quickly). I ran the first 2-3 miles pretty slow (around 9:40 pace) and then picked it up to 9:15-9:20 for the next few miles. The pace, by itself, didn't feel difficult, but I was getting really warm - too warm - and I knew it wasn't going to be sustainable for long. So around mile 7, I slowed it back down to 9:30-9:40 pace, which felt comfortable, and I hoped I could cruise along at that pace for a while. But after a while it all fell apart. I don't feel like I hit the "wall" as that term is usually used, but my problem was that I got severely dehydrated, and I couldn't get enough liquid back into me at the water stops.

I think 90% of the problem was the weather, but since I slowed down SO much in the second half, I'm also wondering if I set unrealistic pace goals. On paper, I still think everything sounds realistic, but it didn't feel realistic at all on Sunday.  

I don't think your goals were unrealistic. You had a bad day. Also, there is like zero shade in the back half of that course. The sun totally drained my life force Sunday.

My primary concern with a redemption race is whether or not you'll be recovered and in PR shape in three weeks. 26.2 too hot miles prob did a number on your body. I know I feel so much worse then I did after chicago where it was like 20 degrees colder.

MH actually brought up a really excellent point when I was being all emo about training for 18 weeks for 'nothing': why train for 18 weeks? The answer this time around is because I was super out if shape when I started, but if I keep a good base through the winter of like 40 mpw then I wouldn't 'need' 18 weeks next summer which would take away some of the sting of it didn't work out.

That's kind of rambly but hopefully you get where I'm going with this.

I do get it. There is a part of me that's all IDGAF, I know I was well-trained, and I can chalk it up to a bad day and move onto winter training, where I will focus on shorter distances and get stronger, and set some nice PRs in other distances. That is very appealing for a number of reasons. 

[gt7301b]

Oct 28, 2014 9:52:11 GMT -5 ebeth said:

I'm right there with you girl. Except the part about a redemption race. Training for 5 months just to have a bad day? Who needs it? I'm retiring from marathons.

I've heard these words many times before and yet the marathon draws you back in.

[ebeth]

Oct 28, 2014 12:27:58 GMT -5 gt7301b said:

Oct 28, 2014 9:52:11 GMT -5 ebeth said:

I'm right there with you girl. Except the part about a redemption race. Training for 5 months just to have a bad day? Who needs it? I'm retiring from marathons.

I've heard these words many times before and yet the marathon draws you back in.

You're right. After I posted that I looked up info about switching to the full at RNR. (Aside: you get a JACKET if you finish the marathon!). I talk a big game but I'm a glutton for punishment. And my training crew is already engaged in a full court 'get Ebeth to run the full at RnR' press. So yeah...we'll see.

[clseale]

Oct 28, 2014 12:35:37 GMT -5 ebeth said:

Oct 28, 2014 12:27:58 GMT -5 gt7301b said:

I've heard these words many times before and yet the marathon draws you back in.

You're right. After I posted that I looked up info about switching to the full at RNR. (Aside: you get a JACKET if you finish the marathon!). I talk a big game but I'm a glutton for punishment. And my training crew is already engaged in a full court 'get Ebeth to run the full at RnR' press. So yeah...we'll see.

I was going to ask you about redemption in Kiawah, but I didn't want you to smack me when we see each other. Get out of here with this retiring nonsense. Maybe a break to have a baby, though. I'm recruiting all of you people for that!

[lb2006]

I think your paces were spot on.  And I've been there before.  

I was set to run probably a 4:10-4:15 in the OBX marathon in 2012 (my PR - at that time - was 4:26).  The day was going to get hot & there really NO trees at the Outer Banks.  We'd be running in full sun for all but 3 miles of the course.  I was running low 9:00s miles until mile 10.  I was thirsty and started having GI distress.  

It ended up being a marathon/porta-potty race and by the end I was dumping full cups of water over my head - it was reaching mid-70s and no shade.  I "ran" that in a 4:41.  I was really disappointed because i KNEW i had a fast training cycle and was set to PR.  I was disappointed at the end of the race, but also realized how much was out of my control.  I did the best i could with the circumstances and finished the race.


I'd say take this week and rest up.  Check the weather as best you can and make a decision closer to the date.  It sounds as if these races won't sell out and you'll be able to get a spot.  Relax this week and reverse taper.  You ran back-to-back great races last year - i know you can do it again!!!

[lb2006]

Oct 28, 2014 12:38:24 GMT -5 clseale said:

Oct 28, 2014 12:35:37 GMT -5 ebeth said:

You're right. After I posted that I looked up info about switching to the full at RNR. (Aside: you get a JACKET if you finish the marathon!). I talk a big game but I'm a glutton for punishment. And my training crew is already engaged in a full court 'get Ebeth to run the full at RnR' press. So yeah...we'll see.

I was going to ask you about redemption in Kiawah, but I didn't want you to smack me when we see each other. Get out of here with this retiring nonsense. Maybe a break to have a baby, though. I'm recruiting all of you people for that!

H&F pregnancy pact, huh?  You'll be breaking out the secret handshakes/contracts at Kiawah

[ebeth]

Oct 28, 2014 12:38:24 GMT -5 clseale said:

Oct 28, 2014 12:35:37 GMT -5 ebeth said:

You're right. After I posted that I looked up info about switching to the full at RNR. (Aside: you get a JACKET if you finish the marathon!). I talk a big game but I'm a glutton for punishment. And my training crew is already engaged in a full court 'get Ebeth to run the full at RnR' press. So yeah...we'll see.

I was going to ask you about redemption in Kiawah, but I didn't want you to smack me when we see each other. Get out of here with this retiring nonsense. Maybe a break to have a baby, though. I'm recruiting all of you people for that!

Lolz. I'm a hard no on redemption at Kiawah. I need at least one PR this year and I'm counting on that happening at the half.

[gt7301b]

Oct 28, 2014 12:35:37 GMT -5 ebeth said:

Oct 28, 2014 12:27:58 GMT -5 gt7301b said:

I've heard these words many times before and yet the marathon draws you back in.

You're right. After I posted that I looked up info about switching to the full at RNR. (Aside: you get a JACKET if you finish the marathon!). I talk a big game but I'm a glutton for punishment. And my training crew is already engaged in a full court 'get Ebeth to run the full at RnR' press. So yeah...we'll see.

That makes for the world's shortest marathon retirement ever

[nichelobe]

Oct 28, 2014 11:13:48 GMT -5 Wines Not Whines said:

But I put a lot of effort into one day, and I want *something* to prove that it wasn't all for naught. Even if I don't meet my A goal, I would like some tangible acknowledgement that my 18 weeks of 6:30 am runs in the summer heat, early bedtimes, lack of friday night drinking, and general crankiness meant something.

I just ran my first marathon and was really disappointed that it didn't go the way I planned. I had a realistic goal but things happened on the course that didn't let me find out what I was capable of under perfect conditions. You're far more seasoned than I am, and I have no idea whether finding another race, under the pressure of redemption, is the best idea.

I just wanted to let you know that I felt the same way. I was pretty beat down for a few days thinking of all the work and time I put in, and it was all just...over. I was so disappointed and just felt robbed. I'm also a planner and need a goal - I totally get that. Maybe give yourself a little time to let the dust settle? I bet you'll feel more confident in a decision in a few days. Then, if you decide to try for a marathon again soon, start analyzing your pacing strategy. You've got some really good recent data to help you formulate a plan.

In any case, you're a badass multi-marathoner. Nothing has changed that. Honestly, you're making a newbie like me feel a little better. I mean, if someone as good as you feels this way after what I call an AMAZING race, maybe it's not so far off base for me. I mainly just want to commiserate - your reaction is completely valid. Sometimes just knowing that someone else gets it can help you turn it around.  Whether it's in a few weeks or next year, let's both plan on taking that disappointment and using it to fuel an awesome PR. Deal?

[ebeth]

Oct 28, 2014 12:50:35 GMT -5 gt7301b said:

Oct 28, 2014 12:35:37 GMT -5 ebeth said:

You're right. After I posted that I looked up info about switching to the full at RNR. (Aside: you get a JACKET if you finish the marathon!). I talk a big game but I'm a glutton for punishment. And my training crew is already engaged in a full court 'get Ebeth to run the full at RnR' press. So yeah...we'll see.

That makes for the world's shortest marathon retirement ever

I'm the Brett Favre of marathoning.

(Sorry to derail your post Wines Not Whines )