So annoyed by this (sexist) phone call

[mcc]

It's so frustrating being a woman in tech sometimes. Women are severely underrepresented in tech--right now I'm the only woman in my company of <20 (there was another when I started) and while most people are supportive and embrace women, I just encountered the biggest ass on the phone. It could have been non-sexist but I took it personally.

We just got a call from a recruiter looking to sell a candidate (under the guise of a consulting company-we all pick up the phones here) asking to speak to someone in the dev dept. I work in marketing but my daily work involves a lot of front end coding and I work with and have dev friends so I know the gist of many languages, how things work, etc.  I tried to field the call but he would not talk to me because it was all "technical stuff you probably don't understand". Conversation highlights included: "What's your title?" (I can help you out...), "This is pretty technical so if you could direct me to someone who understands that" (Yup, I do...), "No, I mean ::insert coding languages and buzzwords:: type of stuff that you won't know. Can you direct my call to someone who gets it?".

Ughhh, for real? Suck it dude. I code everyday, I know languages and enough to see through your crap but you can't even be a decent human being? Let me go put my lipstick on, make the founder a martini, and sashay myself over to one of the super smart men who will see through your bullshit as fast as I did. Asshole. It's completely possible that he wasn't being a raging sexist but it's something that I'm sensitive about and this is the first time someone has so blatantly insulted my intelligence and position like that. Grr!

[redredwine]

I know exactly what you mean.

My previous company had a strongly male demographic. I worked with consumers on their 1-800 line and several times, I got asked "I need to speak to a man about this."

I cried the first time I was told that. The second time I was asked "I need to speak a man", I asked what his question was "so I can direct you to the right person". When he asked it, I answered it and then some. I think he was taken back. I handled similar calls the same way going forward. Placate them for a second, then school them.

[GilliC]

The very first time I met the Twitter micro-celeb, I was on duty at our corporate recruiting stand. We had been chatting for quite a while before something in the conversation registered with him and he asked, "Oh, you're a developer?!" Yeah, he thought I was in HR or management or something, even though it was at an event titled "Developers Conference."

The funny thing is that he's a very outspoken feminist, so I never let him live this down.

[mcc]

Thanks for commiserating redredwine! It's so annoying. Oh, yeah my vagina completely disables me from answer this question or having the requisite knowledge! It's not that this guy was old or antiquated, just acted like only men know anything about coding or can't answer a dev question. He wasn't getting through to anyone anyway but I wish I had said something to his question about my title. At least something like "Haha, of which of my ventures?" or telling him that by calling a startup he's just as likely to get a founder on the phone as anyone else so questioning someone isn't the way to get through or that my title depends on the day but right now I'm wearing the hat of lead website developer and Queen of Fuckofville.

[mcc]

Oh GilliC now I want to know who it is! I remember your story about him. Care to share via PM?

[jigsy]

I was talking about this with mp last night. While I have opportunity at my current job to get promoted and actually make some pretty decent money, this industry is SUPER male dominated. And while I can play along sometimes with the condescension to get what I want, if you do it every day, a little piece of your soul dies.

[stephreloaded]

I had this happened to me a lot. I went to school for Engineering and worked in that field briefly. One of my first jobs were at the audit of the construction of one of the main roads in my city.

I had a hard time getting the respect from the people I needed to audit because I was not only a woman but I was young and I used to look younger than my age to top it off.

[mcc]

Oct 30, 2014 12:30:52 GMT -5 @happybythekilowatt said:

It is POSSIBLE he wasn't being a raging sexist... but not PROBABLE. Sorry you had to deal with such a douche. I want to go back to school for programming so bad, and this is one of my big hangups. I am in a science/tech industry right now, and pretty regularly watch incredibly smart, talented women eat shit for having a vagina.

I think it depends where you go, both company and geography wise. I love my company. It's awesome and I'm taken very seriously and like I'm just a person, not a woman or a man. A lot of companies are very "bro" or frat feeling. That was a big thing for me to consider. I say go back for programming--but I would suggest checking out a bootcamp like Dev Bootcamp instead of a years long degree. This is a great article about these kind of schools bit.ly/13lMT20

[mcc]

Oct 30, 2014 13:13:12 GMT -5 @happybythekilowatt said:

Oct 30, 2014 12:59:52 GMT -5 mcc said:

I think it depends where you go, both company and geography wise. I love my company. It's awesome and I'm taken very seriously and like I'm just a person, not a woman or a man. A lot of companies are very "bro" or frat feeling. That was a big thing for me to consider. I say go back for programming--but I would suggest checking out a bootcamp like Dev Bootcamp instead of a years long degree. This is a great article about these kind of schools bit.ly/13lMT20

This is awesome, thank you. At 29 the thought of spending 4 years in school right now is overwhelming, both in time commitment and financially. This could be a great option for me, and I will definitely look into some of these!

Sure thing--let me know if you have any questions. I went to one of these for marketing

[lookingup]

This is bull shit. One thing I love about my company is that we employ (and promote!) so many talented women. The founder of my company is also a kick-ass woman, so it's only natural. I don't get any of this nonsense from anyone I work with, but it will occasionally happen that I meet another professional in my industry who feels comfortable using terms of endearment to address me, which I fucking hate.

I also got pissed the other day when some salesperson called my shop and asked for the owner. I apologized and said that person was not there (as we're somewhat corporate), and then she asked "is someone else there who can make decisions, like the owner's wife?" Um. NO. I know plenty of women business owners other than the one that I work for. I know it's not the same, but infuriating nonetheless.

[Deleted]

People like that really suck. Yeah I work with a doctor that treats anyone with a vagina like they are "simple". Bro, I've been doing this longer than you amd you suck even though you're a " doctor"

[mcc]

Oct 30, 2014 13:37:13 GMT -5 lookingup said:

I also got pissed the other day when some salesperson called my shop and asked for the owner. I apologized and said that person was not there (as we're somewhat corporate), and then she asked "is someone else there who can make decisions, like the owner's wife?" Um. NO. I know plenty of women business owners other than the one that I work for. I know it's not the same, but infuriating nonetheless.

OMG considering the name of our company, what kind of question is that?!

[Deleted]

I would guess he assumed that a person picking up the phone wasn't a decision maker. Also someone in marketing wouldn't typically hire someone for dev. He totally went about this the wrong way but I don't see it as sexism. While I know there is a ton of sexism in tech this didn't seem specific to that.

[jojoandleo]

Remember the week I got called "the note taker"; "(insert partner's name)'s assistant" (when I was calling about a legal issue, and they asked to speak with an attorney n he case rather than X's assistant. X's assistant is male, BTW); and the receptionist? I did not answer the phone. I don't know where receptionist came from. Yeah. I feel you.

Almost any time I meet with a client I get asked if I am ACTUALLY an attorney, or if I am a paralegal/assistant/anything else. Nope. Only attorneys in or firm take initial meetings with clients. A-we can bill more B-we can actually answer your legal questions C-we want you to, ya know, KNOW YOUR ATTORNEY.

[mcc]

Oct 30, 2014 14:19:43 GMT -5 @pdx18 said:

I would guess he assumed that a person picking up the phone wasn't a decision maker. Also someone in marketing wouldn't typically hire someone for dev. He totally went about this the wrong way but I don't see it as sexism. While I know there is a ton of sexism in tech this didn't seem specific to that.

Haha, it's a small startup--everyone, including the co-founders answer the phone. It's not like he was calling a marketing dept of a huge company or knew that someone in marketing had picked up the phone. Any recruiter should know what kind of company they're calling.

I'm not sure how "I can help you with that if you could be more specific about why your'e calling." would have translated any other way than me asking for more information about what he wanted to know or who he wanted to talk to. I'm sure part of it was him being a recruiter and purposely being obtuse, but the whole "let me talk to someone who understands these coding languages because you'll think I'm speaking French" was downright insulting. I've half a mind to think he had no idea what he was even talking about--a simple, "Can you put me in touch with someone who does the hiring for backend development" would have gotten to the point.

[berbles]

Oct 30, 2014 15:48:58 GMT -5 mcc said:

Oct 30, 2014 14:19:43 GMT -5 @pdx18 said:

I would guess he assumed that a person picking up the phone wasn't a decision maker. Also someone in marketing wouldn't typically hire someone for dev. He totally went about this the wrong way but I don't see it as sexism. While I know there is a ton of sexism in tech this didn't seem specific to that.

Haha, it's a small startup--everyone, including the co-founders answer the phone. It's not like he was calling a marketing dept of a huge company or knew that someone in marketing had picked up the phone. Any recruiter should know what kind of company they're calling.

I'm not sure how "I can help you with that if you could be more specific about why your'e calling." would have translated any other way than me asking for more information about what he wanted to know or who he wanted to talk to. I'm sure part of it was him being a recruiter and purposely being obtuse, but the whole "let me talk to someone who understands these coding languages because you'll think I'm speaking French" was downright insulting. I've half a mind to think he had no idea what he was even talking about--a simple, "Can you put me in touch with someone who does the hiring for backend development" would have gotten to the point.

What's stopping you from responding to him with, "I have xx degree and understanding coding language perfectly well.  What is your question?"

I don't play.

[Deleted]

Oct 30, 2014 15:48:58 GMT -5 mcc said:

Oct 30, 2014 14:19:43 GMT -5 @pdx18 said:

I would guess he assumed that a person picking up the phone wasn't a decision maker. Also someone in marketing wouldn't typically hire someone for dev. He totally went about this the wrong way but I don't see it as sexism. While I know there is a ton of sexism in tech this didn't seem specific to that.

Haha, it's a small startup--everyone, including the co-founders answer the phone. It's not like he was calling a marketing dept of a huge company or knew that someone in marketing had picked up the phone. Any recruiter should know what kind of company they're calling.

I'm not sure how "I can help you with that if you could be more specific about why your'e calling." would have translated any other way than me asking for more information about what he wanted to know or who he wanted to talk to. I'm sure part of it was him being a recruiter and purposely being obtuse, but the whole "let me talk to someone who understands these coding languages because you'll think I'm speaking French" was downright insulting. I've half a mind to think he had no idea what he was even talking about--a simple, "Can you put me in touch with someone who does the hiring for backend development" would have gotten to the point.

Oh I don't disagree with you that he's a raging moron. I'm just not sure it was sexism per say. I've worked with recruiters and I highly doubt he even did enough research to know you are a small company or to know what he was talking about. To be clear he was totally insulting, rude and annoying. 

[mcc]

Oct 30, 2014 15:59:34 GMT -5 berbles said:

Oct 30, 2014 15:48:58 GMT -5 mcc said:

Haha, it's a small startup--everyone, including the co-founders answer the phone. It's not like he was calling a marketing dept of a huge company or knew that someone in marketing had picked up the phone. Any recruiter should know what kind of company they're calling.

I'm not sure how "I can help you with that if you could be more specific about why your'e calling." would have translated any other way than me asking for more information about what he wanted to know or who he wanted to talk to. I'm sure part of it was him being a recruiter and purposely being obtuse, but the whole "let me talk to someone who understands these coding languages because you'll think I'm speaking French" was downright insulting. I've half a mind to think he had no idea what he was even talking about--a simple, "Can you put me in touch with someone who does the hiring for backend development" would have gotten to the point.

What's stopping you from responding to him with, "I have xx degree and understanding coding language perfectly well.  What is your question?"

I don't play.

Wait, what??

It's not my job to prove to a caller soliciting something from us that I'm competent to speak with him. The fact that I should have to prove something to someone to be treated equally, or even be treated with respect, is a ridiculous notion to entertain. Why should I? Because I answered the phone? Because I'm a woman? If it was a man who answered, would they have had to prove their worth to have a conversation? I don't think that anyone should have to prove themselves to a caller, let alone someone who made it clear more than once that they were able to take the call. 

[berbles]

Oct 30, 2014 16:15:19 GMT -5 mcc said:

Oct 30, 2014 15:59:34 GMT -5 berbles said:

What's stopping you from responding to him with, "I have xx degree and understanding coding language perfectly well.  What is your question?"

I don't play.

Wait, what??

It's not my job to prove to a caller soliciting something from us that I'm competent to speak with him. The fact that I should have to prove something to someone to be treated equally, or even be treated with respect, is a ridiculous notion to entertain. Why should I? Because I answered the phone? Because I'm a woman? If it was a man who answered, would they have had to prove their worth to have a conversation? I don't think that anyone should have to prove themselves to a caller, let alone someone who made it clear more than once that they were able to take the call. 

No, I totally agree.  I just mean you can call him out for being a douche.

[GilliC]

This whole thread is starting to remind me of the current viral video on Facebook. "These guys were just saying good morning to her! What's wrong with that?! It's not cat-calling."

If a man had answered the phone and said that he could help the caller, would the response have been the same? Maybe, maybe not. Does this happen so often that women in tech feel threatened whenever anyone undermines our competence? Definitely.

It's an unhealthy situation over all. And while maybe one of the hundred guys in the woman walking around video is really just a friendly guy who says "Good morning" to everyone who passes, it doesn't change the fact that there is a problem. And picking apart which ones are and aren't necessarily instances of prejudice draws attention away from the real issue.

...Putting this away now. 

[mcc]

Oct 30, 2014 16:22:53 GMT -5 berbles said:

Oct 30, 2014 16:15:19 GMT -5 mcc said:

Wait, what??

It's not my job to prove to a caller soliciting something from us that I'm competent to speak with him. The fact that I should have to prove something to someone to be treated equally, or even be treated with respect, is a ridiculous notion to entertain. Why should I? Because I answered the phone? Because I'm a woman? If it was a man who answered, would they have had to prove their worth to have a conversation? I don't think that anyone should have to prove themselves to a caller, let alone someone who made it clear more than once that they were able to take the call. 

No, I totally agree.  I just mean you can call him out for being a douche.

Haha, I was like OMG what? It wasn't worth calling him out and I hate having to prove myself. Truth be told, I'm not proficient but I do spend my day learning as I go so throwing a degree in his face wouldn't work. But dude, talk to me like a person. I told you three times that I can help you out. All you had to do instead of saying, "very technical stuff that you won't understand" and spouting off buzzwords is say, "I have a front or back end developer who I think you should meet". 

[mcc]

Admittedly GilliC and berbles I'm oversensitive about this for sure! It's hard not to be though when you work such a great environment and then someone calls and acts like a douche. It's funny though, I haven't had one client treat me poorly while making their website. Oh you're making it, awesome! I think that guy is just a jerk. I had to vent though.

[berbles]

Oct 30, 2014 16:37:39 GMT -5 mcc said:

Oct 30, 2014 16:22:53 GMT -5 berbles said:

No, I totally agree.  I just mean you can call him out for being a douche.

Haha, I was like OMG what? It wasn't worth calling him out and I hate having to prove myself. Truth be told, I'm not proficient but I do spend my day learning as I go so throwing a degree in his face wouldn't work. But dude, talk to me like a person. I told you three times that I can help you out. All you had to do instead of saying, "very technical stuff that you won't understand" and spouting off buzzwords is say, "I have a front or back end developer who I think you should meet". 

Totally.

And now I'm thinking it would be more fun to say, brightly of course, SURE NO PROBLEM!  And then transfer him to HR or something.  LOL

[mcc]

Oct 30, 2014 16:41:59 GMT -5 berbles said:

Oct 30, 2014 16:37:39 GMT -5 mcc said:

Haha, I was like OMG what? It wasn't worth calling him out and I hate having to prove myself. Truth be told, I'm not proficient but I do spend my day learning as I go so throwing a degree in his face wouldn't work. But dude, talk to me like a person. I told you three times that I can help you out. All you had to do instead of saying, "very technical stuff that you won't understand" and spouting off buzzwords is say, "I have a front or back end developer who I think you should meet". 

Totally.

And now I'm thinking it would be more fun to say, brightly of course, SURE NO PROBLEM!  And then transfer him to HR or something.  LOL

We don't even have HR. I am HR, and marketing, and websites...and legal when it comes up. We're a real small startup!

[GilliC]

Oct 30, 2014 12:30:52 GMT -5 @happybythekilowatt said:

It is POSSIBLE he wasn't being a raging sexist... but not PROBABLE. Sorry you had to deal with such a douche. I want to go back to school for programming so bad, and this is one of my big hangups. I am in a science/tech industry right now, and pretty regularly watch incredibly smart, talented women eat shit for having a vagina.

Definitely don't let it scare you off. A lot of the behavior in programming simply comes from lack of exposure. There are so few women writing code that most male coders have never even really thought about it!

When I joined my current team, they had never had a female developer! And a few people made some atrocious comments, trying to be funny. However, once they realized that I was just like them and that I actually enjoy programming as much as they do, they got over the whole thing and it never came up again.

And mcc has a good suggestion about doing some shorter studies instead of a degree. I assume you already have a degree in another field, and since software is involved in nearly every industry, there is a HUGE demand for people who have strong domain knowledge about a specific industry and who can also code! Those are the best people to translate the business need into the software concepts!

[berbles]

Oct 30, 2014 16:43:17 GMT -5 mcc said:

Oct 30, 2014 16:41:59 GMT -5 berbles said:

Totally.

And now I'm thinking it would be more fun to say, brightly of course, SURE NO PROBLEM!  And then transfer him to HR or something.  LOL

We don't even have HR. I am HR, and marketing, and websites...and legal when it comes up. We're a real small startup!

LOL, ok now I am reminded of a funny story.

A friend of mine was working at a movie theater in HS.  It was a small theater and he was often the only person working.  He had to run the ticket booth and concessions.  So this lady buys tickets, and he follows her inside to sell her concessions (so she should have noticed he was the only person working there).  She asks for a cup of water.  He explains that they only have soda cups and he has to charge her for a soda.  She argues.  He tries to explain.  She demands to see a manager.  So he literally spins around in a circle and says, "Hello ma'am, I'm the manager.  What seems to be the problem??"  She just walked into the theater in a huff.  LOLOLOLOL

[GilliC]

Oct 30, 2014 16:43:17 GMT -5 mcc said:

Oct 30, 2014 16:41:59 GMT -5 berbles said:

Totally.

And now I'm thinking it would be more fun to say, brightly of course, SURE NO PROBLEM!  And then transfer him to HR or something.  LOL

We don't even have HR. I am HR, and marketing, and websites...and legal when it comes up. We're a real small startup!

Even better! Transfer his call to "someone who can help" and then pick up the call again yourself. Complete with introduction.

[mcc]

Oct 30, 2014 16:49:51 GMT -5 GilliC said:

Oct 30, 2014 16:43:17 GMT -5 mcc said:

We don't even have HR. I am HR, and marketing, and websites...and legal when it comes up. We're a real small startup!

Even better! Transfer his call to "someone who can help" and then pick up the call again yourself. Complete with introduction.

Omg I'm doing this next time. Let me connect you with someone who knows exactly what you're talking about and can help you out. Oh hello!

[berbles]

That's exactly what I was saying, with my story! LOL!

Bonus points for not even attempting to conceal your voice.

[mcc]

Oct 30, 2014 16:48:05 GMT -5 GilliC said:

Oct 30, 2014 12:30:52 GMT -5 @happybythekilowatt said:

It is POSSIBLE he wasn't being a raging sexist... but not PROBABLE. Sorry you had to deal with such a douche. I want to go back to school for programming so bad, and this is one of my big hangups. I am in a science/tech industry right now, and pretty regularly watch incredibly smart, talented women eat shit for having a vagina.

Definitely don't let it scare you off. A lot of the behavior in programming simply comes from lack of exposure. There are so few women writing code that most male coders have never even really thought about it!

When I joined my current team, they had never had a female developer! And a few people made some atrocious comments, trying to be funny. However, once they realized that I was just like them and that I actually enjoy programming as much as they do, they got over the whole thing and it never came up again.

And mcc has a good suggestion about doing some shorter studies instead of a degree. I assume you already have a degree in another field, and since software is involved in nearly every industry, there is a HUGE demand for people who have strong domain knowledge about a specific industry and who can also code! Those are the best people to translate the business need into the software concepts!

Agreed. Part of the reason I know I was hired was because I had a legal background and customer experience. I had limited knowledge in HTML and CSS but had taken a few code academy tutorials. I've had to learn a ton on the job and there's a learning curve, but I think about problems from a different mindset and that's good for a dynamic office. I'm slower than others but much faster than I was a month ago and I'm teaching people new things that I've figured out. I was hired to write but the right company can use your interests and seasoned skills to do good work.

Women's coding collective is great to try--$50, 2 weeks with support forums. If you like it go from there. Plenty of bootcamps provide scholarships for women to get them in the programs too and work to get you placed after the program