Serial episode 9 maybe SPOILERS

[Deleted]

Just so sad.  For everyone.  Probably the saddest episode yet.  And now we have to wait 2 weeks to hear the next episode.


Whether or not Adnan did it, I think there is a lot of reasonable doubt, it's kind of hard to believe he was convicted on just the testimony of one person.  But unless there is physical evidence showing that there was no way Adnan did it I think he my never get out of prison.  

[heyjude]

Nov 20, 2014 12:55:32 GMT -5 @slayerkate said:

Just so sad.  For everyone.  Probably the saddest episode yet.  And now we have to wait 2 weeks to hear the next episode.


Whether or not Adnan did it, I think there is a lot of reasonable doubt, it's kind of hard to believe he was convicted on just the testimony of one person.  But unless there is physical evidence showing that there was no way Adnan did it I think he my never get out of prison.  

I'm not sure why people get hung up on the fact that "the testimony of just one person convicted him." That was pretty strong testimony. And um, this happens all the time in law....

And in addition:

Jay took the authorities to Hae's car.

They have a phone call that put Jay and Adnan together that afternoon.

And Adnan's cell pinged the towers at the park that night.

[lyssbobiss, Command, B613]

Jumping into the discussion but i need to talk about this podcast! So hooked. I have a hard time with the timeline, the people who allegedly saw Hae and Adman separately during the time frame in question. Not sure why we are trusting a bunch of kids who were all smoking pot to be reliable stewards of time anyway. Something about Jen is reading a bit shady to me, as is Jay. I have literally no idea what happened, just that it didn't go down the way Jay said.

[karinothing]

Nov 20, 2014 12:55:32 GMT -5 @slayerkate said:

Just so sad.  For everyone.  Probably the saddest episode yet.  And now we have to wait 2 weeks to hear the next episode.


Whether or not Adnan did it, I think there is a lot of reasonable doubt, it's kind of hard to believe he was convicted on just the testimony of one person.  But unless there is physical evidence showing that there was no way Adnan did it I think he my never get out of prison.  

I think it is hard to believe the testimony of one person convicts someone, but I agree it happens all the time. I think I mentioned on here before that I had an innocence project case. My client was convincted based on the testimony of one person, who was testifting to get out of a drug charge. In my case, there was a co-defendant who said my client had nothing to do with the murder. A crossing guard also testified that my client was with her at teh time. Yet, he was still convicted (young black mail in the 80s in DC? Probably hard to not be convicted).

The person who testified against him later recanted. Still in jail. His release date is 2025 though. So that is good I guess.

[Deleted]

I hope I don't come off sounding naive. I keep going back and forth about how I feel about this case. And I waste a ton of time on the subreddit. I think SK and team are great story tellers and I think that they are structuring the story to intentionally make listeners question the story and their own feelings about the case each week.

[karinothing]

Nov 20, 2014 14:59:05 GMT -5 @slayerkate said:

I hope I don't come off sounding naive. I keep going back and forth about how I feel about this case. And I waste a ton of time on the subreddit. I think SK and team are great story tellers and I think that they are structuring the story to intentionally make listeners question the story and their own feelings about the case each week.

You don't come off as naive. I don't think any of us want to believe that a conviction can happen based on one person's testimony. But yes I agree SK and the team are great story tellers.

I really think it is weird best buy never had a phone

[starlily]

Whether the testimony of a single individual is enough to convict someone of a crime is SO case specific that it's impossible to draw any generalizations. Impossible.

*I haven't listened to this podcast, although I've read bits & pieces about it. But I had to say something because my head was about to explode.

[lyssbobiss, Command, B613]

I think the boys did it and I think Jen helped. I think Jay turned on him because he was paranoid about Adnan hooking up with Jays girlfriend. (No one has said this but I don't think that friendship is innocent).

[Brie]

I just struggle with Adnan's supposed motive here. It seems so flimsy and fabricated.

[heyjude]

Nov 21, 2014 12:07:36 GMT -5 Brie said:

I just struggle with Adnan's supposed motive here. It seems so flimsy and fabricated.

So who would have a better motive? There is nothing else. It's not a serial killer. Jay took police to the car.

[heyjude]

Episode 9 pissed me off. It's clear Sarah is trying to exonerate Adnan if not legally but in the court of public opinion. She's wearing a white hat and she enjoys it. At first I thought her motivation was a simple affinity for Adnan but now I just think it's some misguided hero complex. Let's not forget that she started this because the friend of Adnan contacted her with a tale of a miscarriage of justice. That was Sarah's starting point. That is her bias.

That said, I didn't hear all of it.

[Brie]

Nov 21, 2014 12:11:23 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Nov 21, 2014 12:07:36 GMT -5 Brie said:

I just struggle with Adnan's supposed motive here. It seems so flimsy and fabricated.

So who would have a better motive? There is nothing else. It's not a serial killer. Jay took police to the car.

I have no idea.  I just don't think his is all that convincing.

[lyssbobiss, Command, B613]

Man if one of my exes is ever murdered, I guess I'd better have an alibi for every moment of my life, because apparently "we used to date" would be a good enough motive, amirite?

[mrsbro]

Nov 21, 2014 12:22:36 GMT -5 lyssbobiss, Command, B613 said:

Man if one of my exes is ever murdered, I guess I'd better have an alibi for every moment of my life, because apparently "we used to date" would be a good enough motive, amirite?

This is where I am. The tower pings pretty much mean nothing, the timeline is shit, there is like zero evidence she was murdered at Best Buy and with the new information this week about the lack of pay phones...I just, there is not enough for me to be yes, he did it. 

[heyjude]

Nov 21, 2014 12:22:36 GMT -5 lyssbobiss, Command, B613 said:

Man if one of my exes is ever murdered, I guess I'd better have an alibi for every moment of my life, because apparently "we used to date" would be a good enough motive, amirite?

No. Not necessarily. But that's not the only thing happening in this case.

[heyjude]

Nov 21, 2014 12:24:32 GMT -5 mrsbro said:

Nov 21, 2014 12:22:36 GMT -5 lyssbobiss, Command, B613 said:

Man if one of my exes is ever murdered, I guess I'd better have an alibi for every moment of my life, because apparently "we used to date" would be a good enough motive, amirite?

This is where I am. The tower pings pretty much mean nothing, the timeline is shit, there is like zero evidence she was murdered at Best Buy and with the new information this week about the lack of pay phones...I just, there is not enough for me to be yes, he did it. 

Can you tell me why it means nothing that Adnan's cell pinged cell towers in Leaken Park that night?

[mrsbro]

Nov 21, 2014 12:26:26 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Nov 21, 2014 12:24:32 GMT -5 mrsbro said:

This is where I am. The tower pings pretty much mean nothing, the timeline is shit, there is like zero evidence she was murdered at Best Buy and with the new information this week about the lack of pay phones...I just, there is not enough for me to be yes, he did it. 

Can you tell me why it means nothing that Adnan's cell pinged cell towers in Leaken Park that night?

Didn't this already discount the entire cell tower pining as pretty much hokem? Am I misremembering the experts opinion on this? 

[heyjude]

Nov 21, 2014 12:28:42 GMT -5 mrsbro said:

Nov 21, 2014 12:26:26 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Can you tell me why it means nothing that Adnan's cell pinged cell towers in Leaken Park that night?

Didn't this already discount the entire cell tower pining as pretty much hokem? Am I misremembering the experts opinion on this? 

I don't know. I don't remember hearing Sarah conclude that the fact that Adnan's cell pinged a tower in Leaken park meant nothing.

At this point though I don't find Sarah a reliable narrator as I think she cherry picks facts to dole out when she feels like it to make her case. Which is not how a jury would have heard all this.

[mrsbro]

Nov 21, 2014 12:33:27 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Nov 21, 2014 12:28:42 GMT -5 mrsbro said:

Didn't this already discount the entire cell tower pining as pretty much hokem? Am I misremembering the experts opinion on this? 

I don't know. I don't remember hearing Sarah conclude that the fact that Adnan's cell pinged a tower in Leaken park meant nothing.

At this point though I don't find Sarah a reliable narrator as I think she cherry picks facts to dole out when she feels like it to make her case. Which is not how a jury would have heard all this.

I am sitting on the couch next to you with that. 

And Reddit (if you can bear) has some information on the cell towers but to be honest they are too much for me. I need a TL/DR summary of their findings. LOL

[Brie]

Nov 21, 2014 12:28:42 GMT -5 mrsbro said:

Nov 21, 2014 12:26:26 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Can you tell me why it means nothing that Adnan's cell pinged cell towers in Leaken Park that night?

Didn't this already discount the entire cell tower pining as pretty much hokem? Am I misremembering the experts opinion on this? 

I think they said that the problem is that the prosecution presented it as, "Well, Adnan's cell phone pinged in Leaken Park so that means that Adnan was in Leaken Park at that time."  When, in reality, it could mean a number of other things, like he was near the park but not in it, or that someone else (Jay?) had his phone and it pinged there, or another nearby tower was overloaded and simply defaulted to that one as the next-closest.

IIRC, they mentioned that cell tower pinging as evidence has been outlawed in a few states for this reason.

[lyssbobiss, Command, B613]

Re:the cell phones, wasn't there also discussion that towers were pinged that weren't near places they apparently visited that night? Meaning that maybe it wasn't the most reliable piece of evidence?

[PinkSquirrel]

Nov 21, 2014 12:45:48 GMT -5 lyssbobiss, Command, B613 said:

Re:the cell phones, wasn't there also discussion that towers were pinged that weren't near places they apparently visited that night? Meaning that maybe it wasn't the most reliable piece of evidence?

I believe they said that the tower pinging matched the locations in Jays story post 6pm, pre-6pm they did not match up with Jay's story

[ChillyMcFreeze]

Nov 21, 2014 12:18:38 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Episode 9 pissed me off. It's clear Sarah is trying to exonerate Adnan if not legally but in the court of public opinion. She's wearing a white hat and she enjoys it. At first I thought her motivation was a simple affinity for Adnan but now I just think it's some misguided hero complex. Let's not forget that she started this because the friend of Adnan contacted her with a tale of a miscarriage of justice. That was Sarah's starting point. That is her bias.

That said, I didn't hear all of it.

She's pretty upfront about that, though. She's said from the beginning that she wants to believe Adnan's innocence, and that she tries to explain away the evidence sometimes. I don't think she's trying to present an unbiased recounting of the facts. She's well aware of her bias.

[havarti]

Nov 21, 2014 12:11:23 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Nov 21, 2014 12:07:36 GMT -5 Brie said:

I just struggle with Adnan's supposed motive here. It seems so flimsy and fabricated.

So who would have a better motive? There is nothing else. It's not a serial killer. Jay took police to the car.

It would be nice to figure out who else may have had a motive, but it's not really relevant to proving Adnan's guilt or innocence.  If he did it, evidence should clearly back up the motive that the police are suggesting.

[heyjude]

Nov 21, 2014 13:29:10 GMT -5 havarti said:

Nov 21, 2014 12:11:23 GMT -5 heyjude said:

So who would have a better motive? There is nothing else. It's not a serial killer. Jay took police to the car.

It would be nice to figure out who else may have had a motive, but it's not really relevant to proving Adnan's guilt or innocence.  If he did it, evidence should clearly back up the motive that the police are suggesting.

Well under the eyes if the law, the jury believed state. So in your last sentence, that's what happened. And they got the evidence presented to them in a logical fashion; not the this twisty turny way Sarah is sharing it.

[havarti]

Nov 21, 2014 13:34:04 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Nov 21, 2014 13:29:10 GMT -5 havarti said:

It would be nice to figure out who else may have had a motive, but it's not really relevant to proving Adnan's guilt or innocence.  If he did it, evidence should clearly back up the motive that the police are suggesting.

Well under the eyes if the law, the jury believed state. So in your last sentence, that's what happened. And they got the evidence presented to them in a logical fashion; not the this twisty turny way Sarah is sharing it.

Well, as Sarah has pointed out, neither the state nor his lawyer pursued leads that may have helped him out.  Perhaps the trial would have been more "twisty turny" if they had.  Also, Sarah is a storyteller, not a trial lawyer.  Her job is actually to wind through a story in a fashion that will hook people in, not immediately take people from point A to point B.  She's obviously very good at her job.

[starlily]

Motive isn't a element of the crime. The public always expects to hear one, but as an actual requirement to prove murder - no.

I told a friend I'd try to listen to this, but it really is going to make my head explode isn't it? I'm already pissed that the podcast description talks about a murder using the terms "characters" & "plot." It's appalling to me that an actual victim, regardless of who is the murderer, is treated as a character.

[lyssbobiss, Command, B613]

Sarah's storytelling aside, it's hard for me to understand how jurors felt that they had enough evidence trying to piece together timelines of stoners (least reliable timekeepers ever) a soap opera motive, and cell phone tower evidence that doesn't corroborate the story of what allegedly happened at the actual time of death.

[heyjude]

Nov 21, 2014 13:40:03 GMT -5 havarti said:

Nov 21, 2014 13:34:04 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Well under the eyes if the law, the jury believed state. So in your last sentence, that's what happened. And they got the evidence presented to them in a logical fashion; not the this twisty turny way Sarah is sharing it.

Well, as Sarah has pointed out, neither the state nor his lawyer pursued leads that may have helped him out.  Perhaps the trial would have been more "twisty turny" if they had.  Also, Sarah is a storyteller, not a trial lawyer.  Her job is actually to wind through a story in a fashion that will hook people in, not immediately take people from point A to point B.  She's obviously very good at her job.

I know she's a storyteller. But you brought up how discussing other motives is not relevant. Maybe not in a courtroom. But we are having a discussion on a message board about a "story." Therefore if someone is going to question the veracity of Adnan's motive, I want to know what motive makes more sense as that is relevant to this discussion.

[mrsbro]

heyjude what do you think happened?

My thought? The timeline is off and probably for Jay's best interest. My thought is the pool hall is more pivotal than we think. Is the pool hall close to Leakin Park? I think Best Buy and the Library are both out as they are too public and if Adnan and Hae were together in either location people would have seen them.

*Based on the friend saying jay was at the pool hall when Adnan called him, and then Adnan arrived there.

Also. Since I'm going wild with conspiracy theories.

Why did Adnan give Jay his car and cell that day? My thought? Jay was Adnan's minion, selling drugs for him, etc. Maybe Adnan was the money and Jay was the courier. That would explain their relationship and why it seems to us they were closer but others only acquaintances.

(I have a cold, dayquil does strange things to me - I swear I'm not wearing a tinfoil hat in a basement somewhere )