UO???

[olivegoose]

Nov 20, 2014 15:51:57 GMT -5 @kimbus22 said:

Nov 20, 2014 15:44:14 GMT -5 olivegoose said:

If we had absolute proof and it didn't cost more to sentence someone to the death penalty than it does to lock them up for life, I would be all for the death penalty. Comparing it to pencils or driving is absurd. I'm pretty sure you will live if someone breaks your pencil or hits you. I don't believe it would be so hard to teach children that murdering another human being is different than being annoying.

It's not like I think they're actually comparable.  I was using extreme examples as an attempt to make my point more clear.

I wouldn't spank my kid while telling him "We do not hit!".  For me, the death penalty is the same basic idea on a much larger scale.  Emotionally I can see why it appeals to people.  But I don't want to legislate based on emotion.

I don't think I'm explaining myself well.  Between Mallory crying, Joey coughing and DH snoring, I was up 5 times between midnight and 7am.  I think I need more coffee to be coherent.

I don't see how those are even remotely the same thing.

[cabbagecabbage]

Nov 20, 2014 15:42:52 GMT -5 cna said:

Nov 20, 2014 15:37:51 GMT -5 andrewsgal said:

It costs more to give someone the death penalty than a life sentence.

How do they manage that?

The lengthy appeals process necessary before an execution.

[Rainyday]

Nov 20, 2014 14:54:15 GMT -5 andrewsgal said:

Nov 20, 2014 14:53:03 GMT -5 @kimbus22 said:

But what is absolute proof? It almost never exists and isn't required to convict in our current system.

Um yep the people who do mass shootings. Absolute proof

o
This. It drives me fucking crazy when these shooters are described by the media as "alleged". I mean I get why they have to, but still. If Fifty people saw you and you're apprehended at the scene, fuck alleged.

[amynumbers]

I'll be honest -- mass shooting people are usually way down my list of people I would give the death penalty to. They almost always have a mental illness, and a nice long trail of people and systems of that have failed them a long the way.

I'm way more into the death penalty for the typical asswipe you see on Dateline who kills his wife to start a new life with the stripper and the insurance money. Like Scott Peterson.

There was a truck driver here who fell asleep at the wheel and killed two people and injured a bunch more. Turns out it wasn't his first offense and bonus he was a sex offender to boot. In a perfect system, that guy can fry.

[Deleted]

Nov 20, 2014 16:19:17 GMT -5 Rainyday said:

Nov 20, 2014 14:54:15 GMT -5 andrewsgal said:

Um yep the people who do mass shootings. Absolute proof

o
This. It drives me fucking crazy when these shooters are described by the media as "alleged". I mean I get why they have to, but still. If Fifty people saw you and you're apprehended at the scene, fuck alleged.

It doesn't drive me crazy because it's appropriate given the Constitutional rights we have and the fact that all defendants are innocent until proven guilty. I hear what you are saying with that very very specific example, but big picture, it's good form...and also the media has "tried" people before and it's just not right. It's not what our justice system is about.

[andrewsgal]

Nov 20, 2014 16:07:06 GMT -5 @kimbus22 said:

The only way it would make sense to me logically is if it was cheaper than incarceration. But even that's a stretch. But I guess it depends on the main goal of our system. Is the end result of a trial/sentencing of a felon supposed to be rehabilitation? Or punishment? Or just removal from society? I guess if it's the last then it would be logical for me. But only if we had a failproof system for determining guilt.

If the goal was rehabilitation then we wouldn't sentence people to life in prison. The goal for murders is very much separation from society.

[Rainyday]

Yeah but that's not what I'm saying. If there are fifty witnesses and the shooter is apprehended at the scene, with weapons, with ammunition, covered in blood, caught on cell phone video, etc. no. No . No. You have lost you right to be called alleged, I don't care about the constitutional rights in that case.
Just because a bunch of old guys wrote some stuff hundreds of year ago doesn't always make it right. We live in a much different society today, not everyone should have the right to own a gun. Some people deserve to lose their rights, not even sorry.

[andrewsgal]

Nov 20, 2014 16:52:03 GMT -5 @kimbus22 said:

Nov 20, 2014 16:34:48 GMT -5 andrewsgal said:

If the goal was rehabilitation then we wouldn't sentence people to life in prison. The goal for murders is very much separation from society.

I'm not sure this is true.  I think the goal of law enforcement is usually to get the criminals off the street and protect society.  But the justice systems seems to waver between punishment and rehabilitation more often than not.  It's hard to say. 

Of course it's true. You put someone in prison for life there is no need for rehabilitation.

[olivegoose]

Prison as it stands now does not provide rehabilitation. Even if they say that's the goal, I don't think they do an adequate job at all.

[andrewsgal]

Nov 20, 2014 16:37:19 GMT -5 Rainyday said:

Yeah but that's not what I'm saying. If there are fifty witnesses and the shooter is apprehended at the scene, with weapons, with ammunition, covered in blood, caught on cell phone video, etc. no. No . No. You have lost you right to be called alleged, I don't care about the constitutional rights in that case.
Just because a bunch of old guys wrote some stuff hundreds of year ago doesn't always make it right. We live in a much different society today, not everyone should have the right to own a gun. Some people deserve to lose their rights, not even sorry.

Oh hell to the no. I may not agree with everything the constitution says but it is the backbone of all order on our society and thank god people like you don't get to decide it's no longer relevant.

[Rainyday]

Nov 20, 2014 16:56:34 GMT -5 andrewsgal said:

Nov 20, 2014 16:37:19 GMT -5 Rainyday said:

Yeah but that's not what I'm saying. If there are fifty witnesses and the shooter is apprehended at the scene, with weapons, with ammunition, covered in blood, caught on cell phone video, etc. no. No . No. You have lost you right to be called alleged, I don't care about the constitutional rights in that case.
Just because a bunch of old guys wrote some stuff hundreds of year ago doesn't always make it right. We live in a much different society today, not everyone should have the right to own a gun. Some people deserve to lose their rights, not even sorry.

Oh hell to the no. I may not agree with everything the constitution says but it is the backbone of all order on our society and thank god people like you don't get to decide it's no longer relevant.

Backbone yeah. But is it all relevant? No. There is a reason we have amendments.

[Deleted]

Nov 20, 2014 17:15:45 GMT -5 Rainyday said:

Nov 20, 2014 16:56:34 GMT -5 andrewsgal said:

Oh hell to the no. I may not agree with everything the constitution says but it is the backbone of all order on our society and thank god people like you don't get to decide it's no longer relevant.

Backbone yeah. But is it all relevant? No. There is a reason we have amendments.

I will just agree to disagree with you. Nope. Nope. Nope.

[andrewsgal]

Nov 20, 2014 17:05:23 GMT -5 @kimbus22 said:

Nov 20, 2014 17:02:33 GMT -5 @tooshort said:

We stopped trying to rehabilitate people long ago. Like the day after we set up the prison system. We punish. If you doubt which side our system falls on just see solitary confinement.

I agree the system is woefully inadequate in all aspects.  But if we had really stopped trying to rehabilitate completely, we wouldn't be spending money on prison therapy and education for inmates.  At the same time we're punishing.  It's mixed messages everywhere.

Lol at therapy and education. Um no

[andrewsgal]

Nov 20, 2014 17:15:45 GMT -5 Rainyday said:

Nov 20, 2014 16:56:34 GMT -5 andrewsgal said:

Oh hell to the no. I may not agree with everything the constitution says but it is the backbone of all order on our society and thank god people like you don't get to decide it's no longer relevant.

Backbone yeah. But is it all relevant? No. There is a reason we have amendments.

Let me guess you didn't take government.

[fancefpp]

Nov 20, 2014 17:22:48 GMT -5 andrewsgal said:

Nov 20, 2014 17:15:45 GMT -5 Rainyday said:

Backbone yeah. But is it all relevant? No. There is a reason we have amendments.

Let me guess you didn't take government.

I don't usually chime in on these but the Constitution really hasn't been amended that much. Are you referring to legislation? Big difference.

[auroraloo]

Nov 20, 2014 14:48:06 GMT -5 Kcthepouchh8r said:

Nov 20, 2014 14:46:06 GMT -5 andrewsgal said:

My UO as long as you have absolute proof I have no problem with it other than it costs so much. In think if you take a life then you don't get one either. That being said I don't believe in the death penalty the American way.

This is pretty much where I'm at.

There's no such thing as absolute proof. 

[andrewsgal]

Nov 20, 2014 17:54:43 GMT -5 auroraloo said:

Nov 20, 2014 14:48:06 GMT -5 Kcthepouchh8r said:

This is pretty much where I'm at.

There's no such thing as absolute proof. 

Of course there is, that has been discussed.

[andrewsgal]

Nov 20, 2014 17:49:03 GMT -5 @kimbus22 said:

Nov 20, 2014 17:22:26 GMT -5 andrewsgal said:

Lol at therapy and education. Um no

I'm not saying they work.  Or that they're always available.  I'm saying they exist.  Which means someone is paying for them.  Which means at some point someone was intending to do something more than punish the inmates.  Hence mixed messages and lack of doing anything effectively.

That's the point they don't exist. They want the public to believe they do but in reality prisons are to separate and punish.

[auroraloo]

HOly shit. Between this and the other day, coco is on my post-it.

I agree with @tooshort about "rehabilitation"

[auroraloo]

Nov 20, 2014 17:57:10 GMT -5 andrewsgal said:

Nov 20, 2014 17:54:43 GMT -5 auroraloo said:

There's no such thing as absolute proof. 

Of course there is, that has been discussed.

I'm trying to catch up! I miss the save draft feature of TB where I could toss quotes down in my reply box and reply all at once. 

I disagree with your "absolute proof" though. I don't think you've yet shown ME anything that is absolute proof. Because it doesn't exist.

[andrewsgal]

Nov 20, 2014 18:01:35 GMT -5 auroraloo said:

Nov 20, 2014 17:57:10 GMT -5 andrewsgal said:

Of course there is, that has been discussed.

I'm trying to catch up! I miss the save draft feature of TB where I could toss quotes down in my reply box and reply all at once. 

I disagree with your "absolute proof" though. I don't think you've yet shown ME anything that is absolute proof. Because it doesn't exist.

A man shoots a cop in front of 10 other cops. Absolute proof.

[andrewsgal]

A man posts a video online of him in the act of killing his wife

[andrewsgal]

A woman drives her minivan into the ocean full of kids with people watching

[auroraloo]

Nov 20, 2014 18:02:21 GMT -5 andrewsgal said:

Nov 20, 2014 18:01:35 GMT -5 auroraloo said:

I'm trying to catch up! I miss the save draft feature of TB where I could toss quotes down in my reply box and reply all at once. 

I disagree with your "absolute proof" though. I don't think you've yet shown ME anything that is absolute proof. Because it doesn't exist.

A man shoots a cop in front of 10 other cops. Absolute proof.

disagree. proof that he shot the cop? Probably. Absolute proof that a crime was committed? Nope. There's always too much background information. 

Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. Cops or not. 

[andrewsgal]

What about my other two?

[auroraloo]

Nov 20, 2014 18:03:12 GMT -5 andrewsgal said:

A man posts a video online of him in the act of killing his wife

Videos can be edited and distorted. 

[andrewsgal]

A man beats his wife in an elevator on camera she dies

[andrewsgal]

Nov 20, 2014 18:04:30 GMT -5 auroraloo said:

Nov 20, 2014 18:03:12 GMT -5 andrewsgal said:

A man posts a video online of him in the act of killing his wife

Videos can be edited and distorted. 

And that is blatantly obvious with a little technology

[auroraloo]

Nov 20, 2014 18:03:59 GMT -5 andrewsgal said:

A woman drives her minivan into the ocean full of kids with people watching

Maybe she got her shoelace stuck. The car did something weird. 

NOt to mention the lack of knowledge about mental health. 

I'm not denying that there's not proof people do these things, but I don't believe there is ever enough proof of any act to justify legally sanctioned murder. 

[auroraloo]

AG, you can keep posting these all day and I'm still going to disagree. There is never enough proof to justify killing. Ever.