Cleveland police officer shoots 12-year-old boy carrying BB

[jln]

How did he not notice that it was a 12 year old?  This makes me so sad for that boy and his family.  I really hope he pulls through. 


Cleveland police officer shoots 12-year-old boy carrying BB gun


www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/cleveland_police_officer_shoot_6.html


CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A rookie Cleveland police officer shot a 12-year-old boy outside a city recreation center late Saturday afternoon after the boy pulled a BB gun from his waistband, police said.



Police were responding to reports of a male with a gun outside Cudell Recreation Center at Detroit Avenue and West Boulevard about 3:30 p.m., Deputy Chief of Field Operations Ed Tomba said.



A rookie officer and a 10-15 year veteran pulled into the parking lot and saw a few people sitting underneath a pavilion next to the center. The rookie officer saw a black gun sitting on the table, and he saw the boy pick up the gun and put it in his waistband, Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association President Jeffrey Follmer said.



The officer got out of the car and told the boy to put his hands up. The boy reached into his waistband, pulled out the gun and the rookie officer fired two shots, Tomba said.



Tomba said the child did not threaten the officer verbally or physically.



At least one of the shots hit the child in the stomach. He was rushed to MetroHealth Medical Center in serious condition. His current condition was not immediately known.



As a handful of community activists shouted obscenities from behind a group of reporters, Tomba said the incident was "very, very tragic."



"We don't come to work everyday and want to use force on anybody," Tomba said. "That's not what our job is. We're part of this community."



The department's use of deadly force investigation team, made up of officers from the homicide and internal affairs units, members of the city's Office of Professional Standards and the city and Cuyahoga County prosecutors office, will determine if the officer was justified in shooting the boy.



Tomba promised the investigation would be open.



"When an officer gives a command, we expect it to be followed," Tomba said. "The way it looks like right now, it wasn't followed, but we're going to continue our investigation."



The shooting comes as the U.S. Department of Justice is investigating the department to determine if it regularly uses excessive force against its citizens.



Northeast Ohio Media Group will continue to update this story.

[NewOrleans]

Was he wearing a hoodie?

Here's a thought. Maybe if there weren't 16 firearms per damn square foot infecting our country, our police wouldn't have to presume that children are locked and loaded.

[stealthmom]

Not to defend the cop but 1- some 12 yo are huge. 2-the age of a person with a firearm is irrelevant. It's just that it wasn't real.

[ttt]

The thing is, when BB guns look like this: 





www.walmart.com/ip/Daisy-Powerline-Model-340-BB-Pistol/25819868

How TF are cops supposed to know the difference from a distance? 

This is what happens when the toy industry lobbies to get laws requiring the orange tips blocked and the NRA supports them. 

mediamatters.org/blog/2013/10/31/nra-blocked-law-that-could-have-prevented-polic/196673

[ttt]

I feel terrible for that officer too. Despite what many people believe, cops are not sociopaths who enjoy going around killing kids. This guy must be devastated.

[sangria]

Nov 23, 2014 7:42:03 GMT -5 ttt said:

The thing is, when BB guns look like this: 





www.walmart.com/ip/Daisy-Powerline-Model-340-BB-Pistol/25819868

How TF are cops supposed to know the difference from a distance? 

This is what happens when the toy industry lobbies to get laws requiring the orange tips blocked and the NRA supports them. 

mediamatters.org/blog/2013/10/31/nra-blocked-law-that-could-have-prevented-polic/196673

Holy shit. What the fuck is the motivation for blocking that requirement when a bob gun looks like this?

[ttt]

Nov 23, 2014 7:54:18 GMT -5 sangria said:

Nov 23, 2014 7:42:03 GMT -5 ttt said:

The thing is, when BB guns look like this: 

</div>They're trying to ban BB guns!!!!!!!!11!!eleventy!!

Read that article, if you can. It's appalling. 

[forreals]

ITA with TTT. Nothing I'm reding here anyway screams anything but awful, tragic incident. If the BB gun looked like a real gun and that poor kid reached for it... I get it:(

[gottadobe]

A BB gun can be lethal to a person if shot anywhere on the face, and can also be lethal to most small animals. My grandfather and father both used BB guns to hunt - as adults.
I know people tend to buy them for their kids (first gun - yay!), but I do not consider them to be toys and very much a "real gun". Granted, you do not need a license to buy one and can get them in any sporting department or store.

A toy gun, to me, is something like a cap gun, where no projectiles come from the barrel.

[tictac]

F/u article: the boy died, and the BB gun in question apparently had the orange safety tip scratched off.

www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/12-year-old_boy_shot_by_clevel.html#incart_story_package

[NewOrleans]

Nov 23, 2014 10:45:57 GMT -5 tictac said:

F/u article: the boy died, and the BB gun in question apparently had the orange safety tip scratched off.

www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/12-year-old_boy_shot_by_clevel.html#incart_story_package

Aaaaaaand then there's this tidbit from the article:

The caller twice said the gun was "probably fake" and told dispatchers the person pulling the gun from his waistband was "probably a juvenile," according to audio released by police officials late Saturday.

The caller's doubt was never relayed to the responding officers - one in his first year on the force, and the other with at least a decade of experience, Follmer said.

[NewOrleans]

The orange tips are part of the gun itself, not painted on , at least in the ones I've seen. Any insights about that?

[MixedBerryJam]

Nov 23, 2014 10:12:01 GMT -5 forreals said:

ITA with TTT. Nothing I'm reding here anyway screams anything but awful, tragic incident. If the BB gun looked like a real gun and that poor kid reached for it... I get it:(

The other end of the spectrum are the real guns that look like toys. Sickening. Who the target demographic (pun intended) for these?
   

globalgrind.com/2013/02/06/real-guns-look-like-toys-photos/ 

[NewOrleans]

Regarding the guns like Hello Kitty... Do you guys remember the Camel cigarettes / Joe Cool cartoon controversy of the 90's? Didn't they have to stop using cartoons because it was considering luring children? Couldn't the same be argued here? ttt?

[elleblue]

Nov 23, 2014 10:49:48 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Nov 23, 2014 10:45:57 GMT -5 tictac said:

F/u article: the boy died, and the BB gun in question apparently had the orange safety tip scratched off.

www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/12-year-old_boy_shot_by_clevel.html#incart_story_package

Aaaaaaand then there's this tidbit from the article:

The caller twice said the gun was "probably fake" and told dispatchers the person pulling the gun from his waistband was "probably a juvenile," according to audio released by police officials late Saturday.

The caller's doubt was never relayed to the responding officers - one in his first year on the force, and the other with at least a decade of experience, Follmer said.

That's a huge issue. Why wasn't this pertinent info passed on to the responding officers?

[ttt]

Nov 23, 2014 12:45:51 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Regarding the guns like Hello Kitty... Do you guys remember the Camel cigarettes / Joe Cool cartoon controversy of the 90's? Didn't they have to stop using cartoons because it was considering luring children? Couldn't the same be argued here? ttt?

But cigarettes are bad for you while guns are a wholesome family activity as well as constitutional right.

[NewOrleans]

Nov 23, 2014 12:50:34 GMT -5 ttt said:

Nov 23, 2014 12:45:51 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Regarding the guns like Hello Kitty... Do you guys remember the Camel cigarettes / Joe Cool cartoon controversy of the 90's? Didn't they have to stop using cartoons because it was considering luring children? Couldn't the same be argued here? ttt?

But cigarettes are bad for you while guns are a wholesome family activity as well as constitutional right.

LOL sort of

[ttt]

Nov 23, 2014 12:57:48 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Nov 23, 2014 12:50:34 GMT -5 ttt said:

But cigarettes are bad for you while guns are a wholesome family activity as well as constitutional right.

LOL sort of

Why do you hate America, voodoo?

[debatethis]

Nov 23, 2014 12:47:25 GMT -5 elleblue said:

Nov 23, 2014 10:49:48 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Aaaaaaand then there's this tidbit from the article:

The caller twice said the gun was "probably fake" and told dispatchers the person pulling the gun from his waistband was "probably a juvenile," according to audio released by police officials late Saturday.

The caller's doubt was never relayed to the responding officers - one in his first year on the force, and the other with at least a decade of experience, Follmer said.

That's a huge issue. Why wasn't this pertinent info passed on to the responding officers?

Because it's up to the police to assess those facts, not a caller from 911. And the age of a person with a gun is pretty irrelevant.

[NewOrleans]

Nov 23, 2014 13:00:45 GMT -5 ttt said:

Nov 23, 2014 12:57:48 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

LOL sort of

Why do you hate America, voodoo?

Let me count the ways.

[ttt]

Nov 23, 2014 13:05:18 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Nov 23, 2014 13:00:45 GMT -5 ttt said:

Why do you hate America, voodoo?

Let me count the ways.

Yeah I'd say this story right here kind of answers that question.

[lg28]

This is an absolute tragedy but I don't blame the officer at all. The kid looked like he had a real gun, and he reached for it instead of putting his arms up.
I despise, DESPISE "toy" guns. BB guns. Well, and real guns. So yeah.

[NewOrleans]

Ok, and here is where it is probably the police's fault. Not the individual officer but LE at large. Kids' brains are not developed. The kid probably thought, "I can make this stop if I just give him this gun and I won't be in trouble then." The kid would not have context for why reaching for it is unacceptable or the ability to weigh out big-picture implications of doing so. I don't really trust that most officers are trained in juvenile psychology/how to respond specifically to children in such circumstances.

[NewOrleans]

Nov 23, 2014 15:10:43 GMT -5 pennypenny said:

Nov 23, 2014 15:06:33 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Ok, and here is where it is probably the police's fault. Not the individual officer but LE at large. Kids' brains are not developed. The kid probably thought, "I can make this stop if I just give him this gun and I won't be in trouble then." The kid would not have context for why reaching for it is unacceptable or the ability to weigh out big-picture implications of doing so. I don't really trust that most officers are trained in juvenile psychology/how to respond specifically to children in such circumstances.

Nope. So officers in general should wait and see what a kid is planning on doing with the gun? Do you know how many rounds can be fired in that time?

What I think is the overall problem (well besides guns in general) is that people are not taught to listen to authority. There are several reasons for that, but this is a big problem when it comes to police. People feel like they don't have to take an order from authority. I don't know what would possess anyone to ignore the direct order from police, but I see it every day. And with things no where near as serious as "drop that weapon" or "put your hands up".

So you don't think that special training regarding children is appropriate?  

What I'm trying to say is that I *think* this child was trying to comply with authority in the best way he understood-- by giving up the weapon. Like, he thought that's what they ultimately wanted and was trying to give it to them. I may be way off-base.  

[NewOrleans]

Ok. Police should receive no special training when it comes to kids. Duly noted.

[kadams767]

Nov 23, 2014 15:24:41 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Nov 23, 2014 15:10:43 GMT -5 pennypenny said:

Nope. So officers in general should wait and see what a kid is planning on doing with the gun? Do you know how many rounds can be fired in that time?

What I think is the overall problem (well besides guns in general) is that people are not taught to listen to authority. There are several reasons for that, but this is a big problem when it comes to police. People feel like they don't have to take an order from authority. I don't know what would possess anyone to ignore the direct order from police, but I see it every day. And with things no where near as serious as "drop that weapon" or "put your hands up".

So you don't think that special training regarding children is appropriate?  

What I'm trying to say is that I *think* this child was trying to comply with authority in the best way he understood-- by giving up the weapon. Like, he thought that's what they ultimately wanted and was trying to give it to them. I may be way off-base.  

What are you reading that you are basing this on, other than your personal belief referenced above about 12-year old brains not being developed?  Is there a witness or someone saying that he was reaching for the gun to turn it over to the police?  Honestly, unless someone familiar with the scene has actually voiced this, I think you are reaching here.  I'd even wager to say that a 12-year old who is familiar enough with guns (BB or "real") and gun culture that he keeps it in his waistband as described, is certainly capable to reason that if he doesn't put his hands in the air and instead reaches for the gun, he might get shot.  

[sangria]

Nov 23, 2014 15:34:36 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Ok. Police should receive no special training when it comes to kids. Duly noted.

In this instance, even if they had received special training it probably wouldn't make a difference anyway. The kid reached for what may have been a real gun after the officer told him to put his hands up.

Special training or not, kid or not, that's a real threat to the lives of those officers.

[sangria]

Nov 23, 2014 12:47:25 GMT -5 elleblue said:

Nov 23, 2014 10:49:48 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Aaaaaaand then there's this tidbit from the article:

The caller twice said the gun was "probably fake" and told dispatchers the person pulling the gun from his waistband was "probably a juvenile," according to audio released by police officials late Saturday.

The caller's doubt was never relayed to the responding officers - one in his first year on the force, and the other with at least a decade of experience, Follmer said.

That's a huge issue. Why wasn't this pertinent info passed on to the responding officers?

It's the officers job to evaluate the scene when they arrive. Fact is, the caller didn't know. In fact, the caller was concerned enough in the first place that they called 911 to report it. That right there is reason enough for those officers to operate on the assumption someone has a real gun in the area.

[NewOrleans]

Nov 23, 2014 15:49:48 GMT -5 kadams767 said:

Nov 23, 2014 15:24:41 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

So you don't think that special training regarding children is appropriate?  

What I'm trying to say is that I *think* this child was trying to comply with authority in the best way he understood-- by giving up the weapon. Like, he thought that's what they ultimately wanted and was trying to give it to them. I may be way off-base.  

What are you reading that you are basing this on, other than your personal belief referenced above about 12-year old brains not being developed?  Is there a witness or someone saying that he was reaching for the gun to turn it over to the police?  Honestly, unless someone familiar with the scene has actually voiced this, I think you are reaching here.  I'd even wager to say that a 12-year old who is familiar enough with guns (BB or "real") and gun culture that he keeps it in his waistband as described, is certainly capable to reason that if he doesn't put his hands in the air and instead reaches for the gun, he might get shot.  

It's not my opinion that children's brains are undeveloped.  That is fact.  

I fully admit (and admitted in the post you actually quoted) that it is surmise.  On the other hand, it's every bit as likely as the possibility he was going to blow away the officer.  

[NewOrleans]

Nov 23, 2014 16:11:30 GMT -5 315 said:

Nov 23, 2014 15:34:36 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Ok. Police should receive no special training when it comes to kids. Duly noted.

What special training would that be? I'm not understanding. Oh, maybe you mean training about how a person of that age can still hurt you? Look up Detective Steven McDonald from the NYPD.

Take some more notes.

The circumstances of Det McDonald's incident are not really comparable to this situation.  

Nowhere in here was I like FUCK THE POLICE.  I specifically said I wasn't really blaming the officers involved.  I suggested that the system might need to better prepare its police to face children.  I had no idea this was a terrible suggestion that made me a fucking idiot.