S/O of Lanza. The Crystal Ball She Wished She'd Had

[jillboston]

Thank you for this. We all (including me) can stand to be brought up short for our judgement of Nancy Lanza. You are 100% right of course and an amazing mother and person.

[litebright]

To add to that -- I would hate to see what people would think if they were posthumously quarterbacking our treatment approach from school documents, emails and billing records. The "official" recommendations vs. where we've chosen another treatment path that we could actually afford, the standard-of-care this or that, that our insurance wouldn't pay for or where we made an (educated and informed) choice to do something differently. My DD1 hasn't gotten much private therapy at all for the past two years. Of course, that's because she's doing well, but still. If you went by the emails that I send, you'd think I hardly communicate about her needs at all, when in fact there are a lot of conversations going on with me, her teachers, and her on a regular basis. What ends up written down in her IEP paperwork is hardly reflective of the 1-3 hour meeting that it takes to get there.

There are probably still tons of things I miss. And that they miss. I'm sure they have little idea of how well she actually gets along with her peers, vs. just being tolerated or left alone. As long as she's not being bullied, their priority is whether she functions in a classroom (and she does), not whether she can get along IRL.

[foundmylazybum]

Nov 23, 2014 11:32:13 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

Newp.  Misses the point.  

I hated Nancy Lanza from go not just because she failed to get appropriate care for her son.  But because it appeared she failed to get ANY care for her son.  And then, even if she had done everything in the world for him, everything, taken the advice of the folks at Yale, forced the involvement of the disinterested father, had him committed, etc. etc. etc., I would still WHATTHEFUCK out of her decision to have a house full of guns.  THAT is the issue.  

There is a healthy and necessary conversation to be had about what resources are available for people struggling with mental illness and the people who love them.  You will NEVER see or hear me suggest that it is an easy road and golly, why don't you just take your very affordable side-effect-free medications prescribed by your easily accessible and involved mental health care provider.  No.  I will not say that.

But do not come to me after the massacre of a room full of kindergartners peddling this "there but for the grace of god go I" tripe.  If you have a child who had the diagnoses or proposed diagnoses that AL had by 9th grade, and by the time he is 22, he's added anorexia, OCD, and a pathological obsession with mass murder to the list?  And your approach to that is to NOT get your ass in front of a probate judge and instead stock your house full of a war arsenal that is later used to massacre that room full of kindergartners, I will BLAME you.  Like, not just side-eye.  Not just think, "Gee-wizz, I wish she had done something different."  I will see that you are culpable and place a large portion of the fault for the incident at your fucking feet.  

There are some lapses in judgment that are so enormous, so monumental, and so consequential, that you do not get to say, "Yeah, but it's hard" and have that suffice.

 

I'm totally with you on all this above (Waves arms)---and the final comment is what makes me think she also had a mental issue going on too.  Like I said before 99.9% of people would never go to "You know what will help solve this major problem I have here? Guns."  That is just SO off base--it *seems* clinical to me. #notpsychologist.

[jeaniebueller]

The difference, like sbp said, is that Nancy Lanza had a stockpile of weapons and allowed her troubled child to have access to them. Full stop.

[ttt]

There is a huge difference between a parent desperately trying to get care for an ill child and a parent who is just like "well it's easier to keep him home, I'm sure everything will be fine and hey kiddo here's some assault rifles! They're fun!"

The mental healthcare system in this country is broken. No question. Nancy Lanza is not a good example of this. Just because the system is broken doesn't mean there aren't any shitty parents out there handling things in a terrible way.

And yes giving your extremely disturbed son access to deadly weapons qualifies as handling things in a terrible way.

[ttt]

Nov 23, 2014 10:46:54 GMT -5 mockingbird said:

But when you’re *in* a volatile situation, and you’re trying to make everything OK, and you’re trying to live life, and you’ve been to the ER and the doctor and you’ve called the police and you’ve dealt with the system and you’ve been blown off over and over and over again (usually without any hint of kindness) and the school won’t help and they call CPS on you and you know you’re all alone in the world, the fuck do people expect parents to do?

Is there any evidence that Nancy Lanza dealt with any of these things? It sounds like since 2006, they made no attempt to access any services or get him any sort of help. They refused all the help from doctors. This is not a good example of someone trying to get help and being turned away. They chose not to get him help.

[my3boyz]

I agree with OP. The only thing to judge here is the house full of guns. The only people that will judge her handling of her son are those not in the same situation. My DS is 12 yo, 5 ft tall and in 6th grade. He is medicated for his issues. About a week ago he decided he wasn't taking the medicine any more. It was the week from hell as we fought him both physically and consequentially to get him back on track.

Please tell me WTF I'm going to do when he's 16 yo, 6 ft tall and is in high school and decides he's not taking them. Yes, I can call the police and have him taken to a mental facility where they will hopefully have beds and my ins. Will hopefully cover his care. And when he's sent home a week later, then what? So no, I don't judge her because her high school and then adult son wasn't medicated. We don't know if she tried and he refused. We also don't know if he threatened violence and she was scared herself. The OPs point is that until you're in her shoes you can't judge her handling of his care, and if you're in her shoes you really won't judge.

We can all agree that mental health support is lacking and that without guns this wouldn't have happened. THAT is what we need to be focusing on as a society!

[derp]

What nobody is really willing to have a conversation about is having children. If you have children, the statistics state that you might have a child that is mentally disabled in a way that is very, very difficult to handle. In a way that many people are unwilling or unable to cope with. So, people need to think really long and hard about this when they make the decision to procreate, but they don't. It's all congratulations and parties and gifts.

Nevermind that you're bringing another person into the world who might need services that don't exist, or that the prospective parents can't cope with. Why doesn't anyone think about that? It is a huge responsiblity and nobody wants to talk about the decision itself to bring these people into the world.

Maybe we could talk about the pitfalls of pro-natalism a little bit.

Mentally ill people having children? Why isn't that a conversation? I mean, it's encouraged. There are consequences.

[josieposy]

I'm sorry but am I reading correctly that people should be prepared for the possibility of having mentally ill children before deciding to get pregnant? I couldn't even predict twins.

[orangeblossom]

Nov 23, 2014 22:23:24 GMT -5 derp said:

What nobody is really willing to have a conversation about is having children. If you have children, the statistics state that you might have a child that is mentally disabled in a way that is very, very difficult to handle. In a way that many people are unwilling or unable to cope with. So, people need to think really long and hard about this when they make the decision to procreate, but they don't. It's all congratulations and parties and gifts.

Nevermind that you're bringing another person into the world who might need services that don't exist, or that the prospective parents can't cope with. Why doesn't anyone think about that? It is a huge responsiblity and nobody wants to talk about the decision itself to bring these people into the world.

Maybe we could talk about the pitfalls of pro-natalism a little bit.

Mentally ill people having children? Why isn't that a conversation? I mean, it's encouraged. There are consequences.

Say what now?

[derp]

Nov 23, 2014 22:29:11 GMT -5 josieposy said:

I'm sorry but am I reading correctly that people should be prepared for the possibility of having mentally ill children before deciding to get pregnant?

Yes. Of course. How could you not?

[AJL]

Nov 23, 2014 22:23:24 GMT -5 derp said:

What nobody is really willing to have a conversation about is having children. If you have children, the statistics state that you might have a child that is mentally disabled in a way that is very, very difficult to handle. In a way that many people are unwilling or unable to cope with. So, people need to think really long and hard about this when they make the decision to procreate, but they don't. It's all congratulations and parties and gifts.

Nevermind that you're bringing another person into the world who might need services that don't exist, or that the prospective parents can't cope with. Why doesn't anyone think about that? It is a huge responsiblity and nobody wants to talk about the decision itself to bring these people into the world.

Maybe we could talk about the pitfalls of pro-natalism a little bit.

Mentally ill people having children? Why isn't that a conversation? I mean, it's encouraged. There are consequences.

First, I'd like to see these "statistics" that state one may have a child who is serverely mentally disabled. 

Second, are you talking about men and women with diagnosed mental illnesses such as mood disorders, depression, anxiety, OCD, etc?  Are these necessarily inherited conditions? If so, what is the risk they will be passed on to offspring?  Is it more of a predisposition for future illness?

What about women who don't develop mental illness until after they have had a child such as in the case of PPD/PPA/psychosis?  Are their children more at risk for mental illness?

Or are you talking about children born with chromosomal disorders that cause cognitive impairments such as the case with Down Syndrome?

OR what the hell ARE you talking about?

[heyjude]

Nov 23, 2014 22:23:24 GMT -5 derp said:

What nobody is really willing to have a conversation about is having children. If you have children, the statistics state that you might have a child that is mentally disabled in a way that is very, very difficult to handle. In a way that many people are unwilling or unable to cope with. So, people need to think really long and hard about this when they make the decision to procreate, but they don't. It's all congratulations and parties and gifts.

Nevermind that you're bringing another person into the world who might need services that don't exist, or that the prospective parents can't cope with. Why doesn't anyone think about that? It is a huge responsiblity and nobody wants to talk about the decision itself to bring these people into the world.

Maybe we could talk about the pitfalls of pro-natalism a little bit.

Mentally ill people having children? Why isn't that a conversation? I mean, it's encouraged. There are consequences.

I don't think there are many parents who think they are 100% guaranteed a healthy child. That's why the phrase "I don't care the gender as long as the baby is healthy" is a thing/cliche.

Does anyone run through the scenarios of what it would be like to give birth to the next Adam Lanza? Maybe not. But that is one of those situations that you can't really prepare for in advance.

[krystee]

While this article does not really work for this particular case, I do think the public always wants to blame the parents in cases like these, but most of us have absolutely no idea what they go through and the lack of resources they have at their disposal. And we ALL need to carry some of the responsibility. We need to vote in people who will not cut funding for mental health services and who will help prevent people who have a mental illness from having access to guns. And we need to help these parents however possible rather than rushing to judge them.

(But I do judge a mother who has an arsenal of weapons available to her son.)

[josieposy]

Nov 23, 2014 22:41:11 GMT -5 derp said:

Nov 23, 2014 22:29:11 GMT -5 josieposy said:

I'm sorry but am I reading correctly that people should be prepared for the possibility of having mentally ill children before deciding to get pregnant?

Yes. Of course. How could you not?

Because shit happens.

I'm sorry that's the best response I've got. There are folks with much better words than I can come up with at this point.

[heyjude]

I'm honestly tired of the Nancy Lanza blame game. Her culpability is so obvious I'm not sure what is left to discuss. And she's dead. I'm more interested in think pieces that blame Dad Lanza for his role in all this. And I've seen all of zero.

[orangeblossom]

Nov 23, 2014 22:59:51 GMT -5 josieposy said:

Nov 23, 2014 22:41:11 GMT -5 derp said:

Yes. Of course. How could you not?

Because shit happens.

I'm sorry that's the best response I've got. There are folks with much better words than I can come up with at this point.

No, I think those are all the words that are really needed, because WTH, to this this whole line of thinking.

You simply cannot be prepared for everything, even when you've done everything "right" in preparation for a baby (e.g. finances, read the books on pregnancy, first year, etc).  I'd go so far as saying, people do have conversations about "what ifs", but there's only so many of those you can do, and reality is different than what you think you'll do when the situation is abstract.

I mean, really.  

[derp]

Nov 23, 2014 22:55:05 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

Nov 23, 2014 22:41:11 GMT -5 derp said:

Yes. Of course. How could you not?

How the fuck would you prepare, without knowing what the diagnosis would be or whether you are capable of dealing with it?  Much of which has to do with things beyond your control (for instance, if you live in a city with GREAT resources for problem A, but you have problem D, what do you do then)?

You would prepare by knowing that any child you have would potentially be severely disabled. This seems like a no brainer when considering the prospect of children. If you cannot handle disabled children, you should not consider children. This seems pretty straightforward, does it not?

[heyjude]

Nov 23, 2014 23:03:05 GMT -5 orangeblossom said:

I mean, really.  

Yup.

[heyjude]

Nov 23, 2014 23:06:10 GMT -5 derp said:

Nov 23, 2014 22:55:05 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

How the fuck would you prepare, without knowing what the diagnosis would be or whether you are capable of dealing with it?  Much of which has to do with things beyond your control (for instance, if you live in a city with GREAT resources for problem A, but you have problem D, what do you do then)?

You would prepare by knowing that any child you have would potentially be severely disabled. This seems like a no brainer when considering the prospect of children. If you cannot handle disabled children, you should not consider children. This seems pretty straightforward, does it not?

So before you have a kid you should ADA your house on the chance your kid is disabled? No brainier!

[Deleted]

I think someone asked before why we have sympathy for the woman who killed her autistic child and not Nancy Lanza. I have *some* sympathy for Nancy because I think homegirl was ill herself but I can find nothing that suggest Nancy tried to help her child in a rational manner. She hadn't called the police, she hadn't sought help from the school system, she had a support system (if she wanted to use it), she had resources.

Instead, she holed up in her house, pretended life was mostly hunky dory, and bought guns.

I agree and understand that the state of mental healthcare, particularly when it comes to supporting parents and helping children with various mental illnesses and spectrum disorders is incredibly flawed and that people need our help but I don't think the Lanzas help make that argument here.

[Deleted]

Nov 23, 2014 23:06:10 GMT -5 derp said:

Nov 23, 2014 22:55:05 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

How the fuck would you prepare, without knowing what the diagnosis would be or whether you are capable of dealing with it?  Much of which has to do with things beyond your control (for instance, if you live in a city with GREAT resources for problem A, but you have problem D, what do you do then)?

You would prepare by knowing that any child you have would potentially be severely disabled. This seems like a no brainer when considering the prospect of children. If you cannot handle disabled children, you should not consider children. This seems pretty straightforward, does it not?

What?

[josieposy]

Nov 23, 2014 23:06:10 GMT -5 derp said:

Nov 23, 2014 22:55:05 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

How the fuck would you prepare, without knowing what the diagnosis would be or whether you are capable of dealing with it?  Much of which has to do with things beyond your control (for instance, if you live in a city with GREAT resources for problem A, but you have problem D, what do you do then)?

You would prepare by knowing that any child you have would potentially be severely disabled. This seems like a no brainer when considering the prospect of children. If you cannot handle disabled children, you should not consider children. This seems pretty straightforward, does it not?

But again you are asking people to consider what often times is a very unlikely scenario. What is the response to parents with no family history and no prenatal indicators? Unless you're prepared for Adam Lanza, don't have kids?

I mean I realize it's a different ball of wax here, but what was I supposed to do? Plan for one healthy baby but be prepared for DH's egg-splitting sperm? Don't get pregnant unless you have every resource available to help you with more than just one happy, healthy kid? Nobody in rural areas would ever get pregnant.

[Deleted]

Nov 23, 2014 23:07:07 GMT -5 asdfjkl said:

Derp has clearly derped.

As for the rest of this thread, and the direction it is clearly headed in (two days of rapid fire posting followed by half a day of gifs) I would strongly, strongly caution parents and loved ones of the mentally ill from identifying or excusing/justifying/what-ifing Nancy Lanza. NL stands for the flip side of the argument you are trying to make. She represents the parents who have every financial resource, a slew of informed and cautionary mental health professionals, a son who was very obviously and apparently deteriorating and she chose wrong at almost every turn. This is not your analogy. Nor do you want to suggest that it is.

Right?

Nancy Lanza was basically an antivaxxer who took her child into a measles epidemic.

[josieposy]

I'm going back to my wine.

[orangeblossom]

Nov 23, 2014 23:06:10 GMT -5 derp said:

Nov 23, 2014 22:55:05 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

How the fuck would you prepare, without knowing what the diagnosis would be or whether you are capable of dealing with it?  Much of which has to do with things beyond your control (for instance, if you live in a city with GREAT resources for problem A, but you have problem D, what do you do then)?

You would prepare by knowing that any child you have would potentially be severely disabled. This seems like a no brainer when considering the prospect of children. If you cannot handle disabled children, you should not consider children. This seems pretty straightforward, does it not?

So a couple should have hundreds of thousands of dollars and possibly millions in reserve, research all of the potential treatment options for an unknown disorder to be determined at a later date, have a flexible job or better yet, not work at all, so they could shuttle said disabled child to an appt of some kind every day of the week, have the mental toughness of a gladiator to deal with said disabled child, and be prepared to do it alone without support from society, insurance, healthcare, etc, otherwise, don't have children?

Okay, then.

[Deleted]

Nov 23, 2014 23:10:47 GMT -5 josieposy said:

But again you are asking people to consider what often times is a very unlikely scenario. What is the response to parents with no family history and no prenatal indicators? Unless you're prepared for Adam Lanza, don't have kids?

I mean I realize it's a different ball of wax here, but what was I supposed to do? Plan for one healthy baby but be prepared for DH's egg-splitting sperm? Don't get pregnant unless you have every resource available to help you with more than just one happy, healthy kid? Nobody in rural areas would ever get pregnant.

Pfft. I'm totally prepared for the possibility of anything happening to my child. Cancer? Got it. Mental illness? Yup. Rapist? Totes Magoats. Catastrophic car wreck that causes paralysis? You betcha.

[josieposy]

Nov 23, 2014 23:14:05 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

Nov 23, 2014 23:10:47 GMT -5 josieposy said:

But again you are asking people to consider what often times is a very unlikely scenario. What is the response to parents with no family history and no prenatal indicators? Unless you're prepared for Adam Lanza, don't have kids?

I mean I realize it's a different ball of wax here, but what was I supposed to do? Plan for one healthy baby but be prepared for DH's egg-splitting sperm? Don't get pregnant unless you have every resource available to help you with more than just one happy, healthy kid? Nobody in rural areas would ever get pregnant.

Pfft. I'm totally prepared for the possibility of anything happening to my child. Cancer? Got it. Mental illness? Yup. Rapist? Totes Magoats. Catastrophic car wreck that causes paralysis? You betcha.

Jesus. Forget doomsday prepping. Apparently I'm not even ready for living.

[heyjude]

I'm guessing derp doesn't actually have kids. This is one of those fantastical conversations people have when they have no earthly concept of what it is like to actually have a kid. The idea of children vs the reality.

"Yes I will cloth diaper and nurse until age 5 and make all our own food and and clothes. And I will prepare myself for every mental and physical health calamity that could come our way! Yes!"

[derp]

I don't know what to say or how else to put it. Bringing a person into this world is an enormous responsibility and if you're not prepared for all the potential eventualities, steer clear. Otherwise, you are a hugely irresponsible person.

I think it's pretty amazing that there is some hate for the father of Adam Lanza, and even the damned brother (), and yet the mother of the boy who threw her son off a damned bridge is getting nothing but sympathy. It's sick.