Post by hopecounts on Nov 25, 2014 13:40:01 GMT -5
We tried the adoption as a universal solution model, it didn't go well at all. See 'The Girls Who Went Away' for some wonderful examples of why adoption only works when it is 100% voluntary. Adoption can be an amazing option if the pregnant woman wants to go that route but pushing it does no one any good.
Adoption is an alternative to parenting your child. It is not an alternative to pregnancy. I don't understand why this is so difficult for some people to understand.
I cannot imagine how difficult it would be to let your child go to another family, even if you were 100% sure it was what you wanted to do. If it wasn't your choice, I can hardly imagine many things more painful and terrible.
We tried the adoption as a universal solution model, it didn't go well at all. See 'The Girls Who Went Away' for some wonderful examples of why adoption only works when it is 100% voluntary. Adoption can be an amazing option if the pregnant woman wants to go that route but pushing it does no one any good.
How quickly we forget our own history, eh?
I worked with somebody who was adopted off an Orphan Train.
My thoughts on adoption changed dramatically after watching how it affected those two 16 & Pregnant kids. Plus there was an episode of True Life on this topic that was heartbreaking. None of this makes me think adoption should be curtailed or discouraged but that it's just an incredibly hard and emotional choice. And saying "just put your baby up for adoption!" doesn't really give the mom or the baby much respect as humans. I'm glad someone is speaking out about this.
Post by penguingrrl on Nov 25, 2014 14:19:03 GMT -5
That was a great read. Thanks for sharing. The argument that abortion isn't needed because you can always make an adoption plan has always enraged me. Adoptions isn't an alternative to pregnancy, it's an alternative to parenting. There is a huge distinction that some seem to entirely miss.
I've been having an on and off "debate" with someone on FB about abortion and how she thinks it should be illegal. And then people can choose adoption! Er, but what about women who will literally die because of complications if not given an abortion? Women carrying fetuses who are dead or dying? Women who are at risk because they are trying to leave abusive relationships? Women who can't afford the kids they have? The fact that outlawing abortion doesn't decrease abortion rates? Nope. According to her, outlawing abortion will just make people think twice about killing their babies!
It must be nice to live in a world that's so black and white. It seems so easy.
I've been having an on and off "debate" with someone on FB about abortion and how she thinks it should be illegal. And then people can choose adoption! Er, but what about women who will literally die because of complications if not given an abortion? Women carrying fetuses who are dead or dying? Women who are at risk because they are trying to leave abusive relationships? Women who can't afford the kids they have? The fact that outlawing abortion doesn't decrease abortion rates? Nope. According to her, outlawing abortion will just make people think twice about killing their babies!
It must be nice to live in a world that's so black and white. It seems so easy.
I've heard this POV before, obviously. And I've given it some thought. People who think this way, and who are similarly unmoved by the dramatic rise in deaths from women who seek illegal back alley abortions when abortion is outlawed, think that any women who would consider aborting her fetus deserves to die. Full stop. They actually believe in the pit of their core that a woman who would make this choice should not live. Like the death penalty, without any actual crime or due process.
We tried the adoption as a universal solution model, it didn't go well at all. See 'The Girls Who Went Away' for some wonderful examples of why adoption only works when it is 100% voluntary. Adoption can be an amazing option if the pregnant woman wants to go that route but pushing it does no one any good.
How quickly we forget our own history, eh?
I worked with somebody who was adopted off an Orphan Train.
Yep, and those adoptions turned out so well. Have you read The Orphan Train? Fictional account of a girl sent on the Orphan Train based on real stories/experiences, it is such an interesting read.
My husband was adopted, and now has a relationship with his birth mother. My husband's birth mother didn't change her last name when she got married simply because she wanted to assure that she could be found if he ever looked for her.
Another friend of mine was both adopted at birth, and gave a child up for adoption when she was 17. She remarked to me, while single in her 30s, that if she were to have an accidental pregnancy, she would never do adoption again.
People underestimate what it's like living with that kind of decision. It impacts the choices you make and it can haunt you your entire life. The amount of strength you need to do that decision and live with it is more strength than most people have.
The right is fond of studies that show how many women regret their abortions as justification for counseling, etc. But they never actually seem to address the regrets and challenges that come with giving your child up for adoption. People who make the choice to give their child up for adoption are incredibly strong, brave, amazing people. But not everyone can handle that kind of challenge, and it's unfortunate that gets lost.
My mom chose adoption for my older sister, it was voluntary and abortion was not an option because of her personal beliefs. But it devastated her. She and I had a really rocky relationship for basically a lot of my life, and when we shared a therapist, the therapist said that she thought my mom felt guilty for showing me love and affection because I reminded her of my sister. So we had a rough time in ways that my brother and little sister didn't because I was the first girl after my mom placed my sister. My mom and I are okay now that she's met my sister and seen that she's okay and had loving parents and wasn't neglected. But it certainly affected her in a lot of ways (mostly positively because my sister is amazing). I'm 30 and we've only been okay since I was 25 or so. Not that it's all on my mom either of course.
(hug) (hug)
I'm sorry it was so rough for you, and glad that you all are in a good place. I can just only imagine how hard it must have been.
15 years after my husband was born, his birth mother was married and had a daughter. She said she prayed and prayed her whole pregnancy that she would have a girl because she couldn't bear the thought of raising a boy, as it would remind her too much of her son that she had given up.
I knew a number of girls in high school and college that placed their babies for adoption and all of them were profoundly affected by their experience. I remember having to drive a coworker home on her son's birthday because she just could not keep it together that way and no one felt safe letting her drive home. Her parents had been very unsupportive of her and had sent her to an unwed mother's home (yes, they still existed in the late 90's) once she started showing and never discussed her baby or pregnancy with her once she came home. Over the years her contact with his adoptive family had steadily decreased and the lack of information as he got older just devastated her.
One thing that people don't always realize is that for the most part if the father does not consent then the adoption cannot legally take place. I'm sure there is a way around this for cases of domestic violence or rape but if the father refuses to sign then everything falls apart. My college boyfriend's sister got pregnant at 15 and the father's family was not supportive of the idea and were threatening not to consent. Her family informed them that if he did not sign the consent forms that they would petition to give him full legal custody of the baby after she was born. After that ultimatum was dropped it was amazing how fast he and his family came around and signed the consent forms.
Post by statlerwaldorf on Nov 25, 2014 16:58:01 GMT -5
I find it interesting that most people in this post are mentioning teenagers and college aged women with no children. Don't the majority of women who get abortions already have one or more children? I would imagine it would be even harder to go through with putting a child up for adoption when you already have children. I can't imagine trying to explain it to my dd specially since she's obsessed with wanting a sister. I doubt our families would be supportive.
I knew a number of girls in high school and college that placed their babies for adoption and all of them were profoundly affected by their experience. I remember having to drive a coworker home on her son's birthday because she just could not keep it together that way and no one felt safe letting her drive home. Her parents had been very unsupportive of her and had sent her to an unwed mother's home (yes, they still existed in the late 90's) once she started showing and never discussed her baby or pregnancy with her once she came home. Over the years her contact with his adoptive family had steadily decreased and the lack of information as he got older just devastated her.
One thing that people don't always realize is that for the most part if the father does not consent then the adoption cannot legally take place. I'm sure there is a way around this for cases of domestic violence or rape but if the father refuses to sign then everything falls apart. My college boyfriend's sister got pregnant at 15 and the father's family was not supportive of the idea and were threatening not to consent. Her family informed them that if he did not sign the consent forms that they would petition to give him full legal custody of the baby after she was born. After that ultimatum was dropped it was amazing how fast he and his family came around and signed the consent forms.
That figures. Once it becomes his responsibility then he doesn't want to deal with it. This again reinforces the idea in society that pregnancy and the resulting baby is the woman's responsibility.
I've been having an on and off "debate" with someone on FB about abortion and how she thinks it should be illegal. And then people can choose adoption! Er, but what about women who will literally die because of complications if not given an abortion? Women carrying fetuses who are dead or dying? Women who are at risk because they are trying to leave abusive relationships? Women who can't afford the kids they have? The fact that outlawing abortion doesn't decrease abortion rates? Nope. According to her, outlawing abortion will just make people think twice about killing their babies!
It must be nice to live in a world that's so black and white. It seems so easy.
I've heard this POV before, obviously. And I've given it some thought. People who think this way, and who are similarly unmoved by the dramatic rise in deaths from women who seek illegal back alley abortions when abortion is outlawed, think that any women who would consider aborting her fetus deserves to die. Full stop. They actually believe in the pit of their core that a woman who would make this choice should not live. Like the death penalty, without any actual crime or due process.
I finally got her response about women dying from back alley abortions and she said, "Well I guess that is one of the consequences of illegal activity." Later she said, "And there ARE alternatives out there. Pregnancy help lines offer tons of resources and support. Not to mention the countless state programs that are available. And if a woman does not want to keep her child then she can place it for adoption."
For those who say that giving up a baby for adoption can be devastating for the mom, and I agree, isn't having an abortion devastating as well? Or do you feel that having an abortion is the more "carefree" option with no psychological consequences? I feel that there are no perfect options.
For those who say that giving up a baby for adoption can be devastating for the mom, and I agree, isn't having an abortion devastating as well? Or do you feel that having an abortion is the more "carefree" option with no psychological consequences? I feel that there are no perfect options.
There is a decided difference between aborting before 12 weeks and carrying a child to term and giving birth. Sure, there are possible psychological consequences either way, but I don't think it's a good comparison.
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
For those who say that giving up a baby for adoption can be devastating for the mom, and I agree, isn't having an abortion devastating as well? Or do you feel that having an abortion is the more "carefree" option with no psychological consequences? I feel that there are no perfect options.
No, I don't know where you got that anyone here thinks that? To be honest, I'm offended. I can't imagine anyone here is such a shithead as to say that abortion is a always a "carefree" no regrets option that never has any consequences for any woman. If a woman who had an abortion had regrets or emotional difficulties coming to terms with the decision, I think everyone here would want that woman to be able to get professional help instead of telling her to put on her big girl panties because abortion is never a big deal. I mean, really.
The reality is that for both choices, women have different levels of comfort. Some women would probably be haunted for years if they had an abortion. Some will be haunted for years if they gave a child up for adoption. Some probably walk away from one or both and never have a second's thought to either. And for some - maybe even most - women, both options are shitty, but they sit down and think about which one is going to make it easier for them to live with themselves. Some women may come to regret their choices, and others will see it as the best thing they ever did, and may even come to continued peace with it over the years.
The important thing is that there's a choice. No forced abortions, no forced adoptions. Let every woman decide for herself what she can handle psychologically, emotionally, and physically. Pretending that one has no consequences for the woman while the other does is harmful to people who make either choice.
For those who say that giving up a baby for adoption can be devastating for the mom, and I agree, isn't having an abortion devastating as well? Or do you feel that having an abortion is the more "carefree" option with no psychological consequences? I feel that there are no perfect options.
1. From the article. "And while abortion is not always a regret-free procedure, studies show that the vast majority of those who obtain one feel that it is the right decision—even those who experience negative feelings after the fact."
2. Carrying the child full term and birthing it is not remotely the same as aborting a fetus at an unviable stage.
3. Even if the regret of an abortion universally carries the same weight as the regret of an adoption, no one is trying to ban adoptions like they are abortions.
4. Please don't refer to abortions as the "carefree option." Your bias is showing.
5. Writing off every option as "imperfect" is not productive. There are hardly ever 100% perfect solutions to every problem. Rather we should be looking at ways society can support women as they make the delicate and very personal choice of when and how to become a mom. We can't guarantee a perfect solution but we can help expectant mom's make the right decision for her life.
For those who say that giving up a baby for adoption can be devastating for the mom, and I agree, isn't having an abortion devastating as well? Or do you feel that having an abortion is the more "carefree" option with no psychological consequences? I feel that there are no perfect options.
No, I don't know where you got that anyone here thinks that? To be honest, I'm offended. I can't imagine anyone here is such a shithead as to say that abortion is a always a "carefree" no regrets option that never has any consequences for any woman. If a woman who had an abortion had regrets or emotional difficulties coming to terms with the decision, I think everyone here would want that woman to be able to get professional help instead of telling her to put on her big girl panties because abortion is never a big deal. I mean, really.
The reality is that for both choices, women have different levels of comfort. Some women would probably be haunted for years if they had an abortion. Some will be haunted for years if they gave a child up for adoption. Some probably walk away from one or both and never have a second's thought to either. And for some - maybe even most - women, both options are shitty, but they sit down and think about which one is going to make it easier for them to live with themselves. Some women may come to regret their choices, and others will see it as the best thing they ever did, and may even come to continued peace with it over the years.
The important thing is that there's a choice. No forced abortions, no forced adoptions. Let every woman decide for herself what she can handle psychologically, emotionally, and physically. Pretending that one has no consequences for the woman while the other does is harmful to people who make either choice.
I apologize if I offended you. I did not mean to imply that anyone here felt that way I just wanted to hear different views on the subject. The people I know who have told me that they either gave a child up for adoption or had an abortion or in one case both all have had a lot of psychological issues stemming from their choices. Granted it is only five people so a small sample. I know not everyone has a difficult time after they make their choice.
For those who say that giving up a baby for adoption can be devastating for the mom, and I agree, isn't having an abortion devastating as well? Or do you feel that having an abortion is the more "carefree" option with no psychological consequences? I feel that there are no perfect options.
There is a vast ocean of difference between "carefree" and "devastating" and setting up the question as such telegraphs what you think should be the expected response. So I'm not going to run in here all "hush hush now, it's okay, don't worry. Women are marred for life by making the imperfect choice to abort" nor will I say "Nah, nbd. Women totally abort and then go out for pedis without a second thought."
The fact that the largest percentage of women who have abortions are already mothers should tell us that while aborting an unwanted pregnancy is unlikely to be easy or emotionless, as compared to carrying and birthing a child the emotional impact is, on average, far less.
For those who say that giving up a baby for adoption can be devastating for the mom, and I agree, isn't having an abortion devastating as well? Or do you feel that having an abortion is the more "carefree" option with no psychological consequences? I feel that there are no perfect options.
Oh my god tooootally. I was all free and easy and light as a feather when I ended my pregnancy due to a significant genetic condition. It was just a walk in the park, what with having suffered for five years with infertility before finally having a child with donor gametes. A spontaneous second pregnancy that had to be ended was like winning the lottery... then having it all taken away. But worse.
So eff you with your "carefree choices."
Oh, and funny story -- had I not been the selfish murdery bitch I was, I would have been 23 weeks pregnant with a very sick fetus when I was diagnosed with stage III colon cancer and a bowel obstruction from my tumor.
Free and easy, yes indeed.
^o)
Now to be honest - it's a bullshit question. Of course there are emotional consequences. But guess what - pregnancy should not be a punishment. And the martyrdom of a lifetime of emotional suffering should not be the price of ANY choice, no matter what. So do I feel the consequences of choosing an abortion? Yes. But you know what else I feel? Relief that I didnt' have to watch an already sick micropreemie suffer because s/he would have been delivered to save my life. That I didn't end up with terminal stage IV disease as a result of delaying treatment in order to prolong a pregnancy to viability. That my one child is healthy and happy and did not have to watch a very sick sibling suffer. That my husband and I had the choice of whether and how to grow our family.
What I do not feel is guilt at that relief. And no woman should.
For those who say that giving up a baby for adoption can be devastating for the mom, and I agree, isn't having an abortion devastating as well? Or do you feel that having an abortion is the more "carefree" option with no psychological consequences? I feel that there are no perfect options.
Oh my god tooootally. I was all free and easy and light as a feather when I ended my pregnancy due to a significant genetic condition. It was just a walk in the park, what with having suffered for five years with infertility before finally having a child with donor gametes. A spontaneous second pregnancy that had to be ended was like winning the lottery... then having it all taken away. But worse.
So eff you with your "carefree choices."
Oh, and funny story -- had I not been the selfish murdery bitch I was, I would have been 23 weeks pregnant with a very sick fetus when I was diagnosed with stage III colon cancer and a bowel obstruction from my tumor.
Free and easy, yes indeed.
Now to be honest - it's a bullshit question. Of course there are emotional consequences. But guess what - pregnancy should not be a punishment. And the martyrdom of a lifetime of emotional suffering should not be the price of ANY choice, no matter what. So do I feel the consequences p choosing an abortion? Yes. But you know what else I feel? Relief that I didnt' have to watch an already sick micropreemie suffer because s/he would have been delivered to save my life. That I didn't end up with terminal stage IV disease as a result of delaying treatment in order to prolong a pregnancy to viability. That my one child is healthy and happy and did not have to watch a very sick sibling suffer. That my husband and I had the choice of whether and how to grow our family.
What I do not feel is guilt at that relief. And no woman should.
I am sorry for what you went through. I cannot even begin to imagine. I apologize for the way I worded my question. It was insensitive. I do not judge anyone for their choices.
For those who say that giving up a baby for adoption can be devastating for the mom, and I agree, isn't having an abortion devastating as well? Or do you feel that having an abortion is the more "carefree" option with no psychological consequences? I feel that there are no perfect options.
2. it is for someone who doesn't want to be pregnant.
These answers change depending on the circumstances surrounding the pregnancy and the abortion, of course. Someone who very much wanted to be pregnant is going to feel sad, and someone who is experiencing medical or fetal issues is going to be sad, as well. Those situations are worsened, as the APA points out, by the way anti-choicers have managed to stigmatize abortion and the women who have one.
For early, elective abortions (that is, with no health issues involved) I imagine the emotional toll of losing what could have been your baby is very different from losing the baby you carried for nine months, gave birth to, held and then gave to someone else forever.
I knew a number of girls in high school and college that placed their babies for adoption and all of them were profoundly affected by their experience. I remember having to drive a coworker home on her son's birthday because she just could not keep it together that way and no one felt safe letting her drive home. Her parents had been very unsupportive of her and had sent her to an unwed mother's home (yes, they still existed in the late 90's) once she started showing and never discussed her baby or pregnancy with her once she came home. Over the years her contact with his adoptive family had steadily decreased and the lack of information as he got older just devastated her.
One thing that people don't always realize is that for the most part if the father does not consent then the adoption cannot legally take place. I'm sure there is a way around this for cases of domestic violence or rape but if the father refuses to sign then everything falls apart. My college boyfriend's sister got pregnant at 15 and the father's family was not supportive of the idea and were threatening not to consent. Her family informed them that if he did not sign the consent forms that they would petition to give him full legal custody of the baby after she was born. After that ultimatum was dropped it was amazing how fast he and his family came around and signed the consent forms.
This is incorrect. In the majority of adoptions the father does not consent but the court terminates his parental rights for the adoption to move forward. If the father is known and named by the birth mother, he could choose to contest the adoption and seek custody, but this happens in a small minority of cases. It's also a small minority of cases where the bio father actually signs his consent. That doesn't really have anything to do with the adoption vs. abortion argument, though.
Adoption is definitely a heart wrenching decision for the birth mother, and the adopted child also feels a sense of loss. I think adoption is amazing and positive, but it's definitely not a walk in the park and has profound effects on the birth mother and often on the child.
When I unexpectedly became pregnant with my 2nd child, I was grateful to have choices. I was already the single mom of a 3 year old daughter and wasn't sure how I was going to be able to add another child to our family. After deciding abortion wasn't something I wanted to do, I looked into adoption. I saw an adoption lawyer, filled out preliminary paperwork, spoke to a few potential adoptive parents, and was about 90% sure adoption was going to be the path I would take.
However, it ended up being something that I just couldn't imagine doing. I could not imagine handing over my child to someone else to raise. I also didn't like how, in the state I live in, once I signed those papers 48 hours after I gave birth, I'd have no option to change my mind. I would have wanted an open adoption, but what if the adoptive parents didn't follow through with their promises of keeping in touch? There wouldn't have been a legal recourse I could have taken and that scared me.
I decided to parent, but it was a very hard decision. I can't so angry when people throw adoption out there as an option as if it is so easy. I have no regrets with my decision and I am now happily married to my son's father, but again, I am glad that I had the options I did when I needed them.