Surprise! New problem with Ferguson grand jury proceeding!

[lys]

A grand jury was not required
Michael Brown was not profiled.
Michael Brown was not killed while fleeing - he was killed when moving toward Darren Wilson - more than 3 witnesses' testimony support this as does the blood spatter on the ground.
"The hands up - don't shoot" is a narrative that has been disproven by more than 3 black witnesses' testimony and the blood splatter evidence on the ground.
Dorian Johnson proved to not be a reliable witness - by evidence and also inconsistencies in his testimony.

Where is the news about the New Black Panthers planning to blow up the St. Louis Arches - with several members arrested trying to purchase explosives? The charges reduced to a lesser charge on a gun violation.

[pixy0stix]

I'm going to move to have lys banned. I'm done.

[mrsdewinter]

Dec 3, 2014 14:07:34 GMT -5 lys said:

Where is the news about the New Black Panthers planning to blow up the St. Louis Arches - with several members arrested trying to purchase explosives? The charges reduced to a lesser charge on a gun violation.

I'm pretty sure you're thinking of the Hamburglar.

[iammalcolmx]

Dec 3, 2014 14:12:42 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I'm going to move to have lys banned. I'm done.

Let me know what I need to do to help.

[elleblue]

Dec 3, 2014 14:16:31 GMT -5 mrsdewinter said:

Dec 3, 2014 14:07:34 GMT -5 lys said:

Where is the news about the New Black Panthers planning to blow up the St. Louis Arches - with several members arrested trying to purchase explosives? The charges reduced to a lesser charge on a gun violation.

I'm pretty sure you're thinking of the Hamburglar.

/dead

[Velar Fricative]

Nice knowing you, Lys.

[elleblue]

Given that one of those witness testimonies presented was the journal accounting of a racist who just happened to be driving by at the correct time to witness the shooting, forgive me if I'm highly suspect of the veracity of all of the witness statements used to back up DW's version of events. 

Also DW himself proved to be an unreliable witness given that his testimony to the grand jury had details that conflicted with his original statements given to investigators. 

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it. 

[ESF]

Dec 3, 2014 14:07:34 GMT -5 lys said:

A grand jury was not required
Michael Brown was not profiled.
Michael Brown was not killed while fleeing - he was killed when moving toward Darren Wilson - more than 3 witnesses' testimony support this as does the blood spatter on the ground.
"The hands up - don't shoot" is a narrative that has been disproven by more than 3 black witnesses' testimony and the blood splatter evidence on the ground.
Dorian Johnson proved to not be a reliable witness - by evidence and also inconsistencies in his testimony.

Where is the news about the New Black Panthers planning to blow up the St. Louis Arches - with several members arrested trying to purchase explosives? The charges reduced to a lesser charge on a gun violation.

I really tried to stand up for you last time.  And for a while there, it really seemed like you were making an effort.

But  to this.  

[saz]

Dec 3, 2014 14:07:34 GMT -5 lys said:

A grand jury was not required
Michael Brown was not profiled.
Michael Brown was not killed while fleeing - he was killed when moving toward Darren Wilson - more than 3 witnesses' testimony support this as does the blood spatter on the ground.
"The hands up - don't shoot" is a narrative that has been disproven by more than 3 black witnesses' testimony and the blood splatter evidence on the ground.
Dorian Johnson proved to not be a reliable witness - by evidence and also inconsistencies in his testimony.

Where is the news about the New Black Panthers planning to blow up the St. Louis Arches - with several members arrested trying to purchase explosives? The charges reduced to a lesser charge on a gun violation.

Also, Benghazi.

[gpw]

Dec 3, 2014 13:21:15 GMT -5 sparrowsong said:

I wish the whole world is like this board. I leave here and try out reality, and talking about my anger, and at best I get "but they found him innocent." At worst I get "Ferguson? Where's that?"

I quit life if this doesn't get a new jury and oh to trial. I hope the other prosecutor isn't as racist as the rest of Missouri seems to be. But my hope is pretty small. :/

I heard a LAWYER say that (or essentially that).  I had to explain to her that it was the grand jury....and then had to explain what that was.  (no, it wasn't my boss).

[gpw]

lys, MB was most certainly profiled. I can't believe there could be any question about it. You can fuck right off. And I would say "nice knowing you" but really...that'd be a lie.

[meshaliuknits]

Dec 3, 2014 14:51:55 GMT -5 gpw said:

Dec 3, 2014 13:21:15 GMT -5 sparrowsong said:

I wish the whole world is like this board. I leave here and try out reality, and talking about my anger, and at best I get "but they found him innocent." At worst I get "Ferguson? Where's that?"

I quit life if this doesn't get a new jury and oh to trial. I hope the other prosecutor isn't as racist as the rest of Missouri seems to be. But my hope is pretty small. :/

I heard a LAWYER say that (or essentially that).  I had to explain to her that it was the grand jury....and then had to explain what that was.  (no, it wasn't my boss).

LOL

I'm dying that you felt you needed to clarify that!

[emilyj]

"The assistant DA response? “As far as you need to know, just don’t worry about that.” The other county prosecutor jumped in, adding, “We don’t want to get into a law class.”

RAGE.

Can the ADA get in trouble for this?

[emilyj]

Dec 3, 2014 14:07:34 GMT -5 lys said:

A grand jury was not required
Michael Brown was not profiled.
Michael Brown was not killed while fleeing - he was killed when moving toward Darren Wilson - more than 3 witnesses' testimony support this as does the blood spatter on the ground.
"The hands up - don't shoot" is a narrative that has been disproven by more than 3 black witnesses' testimony and the blood splatter evidence on the ground.
Dorian Johnson proved to not be a reliable witness - by evidence and also inconsistencies in his testimony.

Where is the news about the New Black Panthers planning to blow up the St. Louis Arches - with several members arrested trying to purchase explosives? The charges reduced to a lesser charge on a gun violation.

You really should have a "Sponsored by Fox News" photo as your signature. 

[AJL]

[summer]

I would love to have an "ask lys" thread.  

[cville]

Dec 3, 2014 15:12:26 GMT -5 summer said:

I would love to have an "ask lys" thread.  

It would probably get really boring, really quickly.

Why are there rainbows?  Reagan and fiscal conservatism.

Why do good people do bad things?  Obama.

Who is your favorite musician?  Ted Nugent.  

What is your favorite article of clothing?  Bootstraps.

[jlt19]

Other than the last part (b/c everyone I know knows there's only one Arch) Lys' statements are what I've heard from almost everyone in my life, both FB and IRL. I have TWO friends who have been pretty in line with this board and it saddens me. I've done a lot of unfriending lately over this, but some people I just cannot quit. It just goes to show how incredibly racially divided this city truly is. And I promise you, these are not people that think they are racist or want to be racist, most are just unjustifiably ignorant.

[summer]

Dec 3, 2014 15:17:27 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

Other than the last part (b/c everyone I know knows there's only one Arch) Lys' statements are what I've heard from almost everyone in my life, both FB and IRL. I have TWO friends who have been pretty in line with this board and it saddens me. I've done a lot of unfriending lately over this, but some people I just cannot quit. It just goes to show how incredibly racially divided this city truly is. And I promise you, these are not people that think they are racist or want to be racist, most are just unjustifiably ignorant.

Here is what I don't understand about people like you described here.  If you gave them something, factually-based, that went against their understanding of the world, would they just not read it? Or would they do some sort of mental gymnastics with it?

What if lys read  The Great Police Cover Up,  or  The Case For Reparations or watched this Slavery By Another Name?

They are all well-researched, the evidence is there....how does it not affect your thinking?  How do you reconcile these pieces with that world view?

[jln]

Dec 3, 2014 14:07:34 GMT -5 lys said:

A grand jury was not required
Michael Brown was not profiled.
Michael Brown was not killed while fleeing - he was killed when moving toward Darren Wilson - more than 3 witnesses' testimony support this as does the blood spatter on the ground.
"The hands up - don't shoot" is a narrative that has been disproven by more than 3 black witnesses' testimony and the blood splatter evidence on the ground.
Dorian Johnson proved to not be a reliable witness - by evidence and also inconsistencies in his testimony.

Where is the news about the New Black Panthers planning to blow up the St. Louis Arches - with several members arrested trying to purchase explosives? The charges reduced to a lesser charge on a gun violation.

FIFTEEN WITNESSES SAID OTHERWISE.

Did you manage to find a sale on a new Confederate Flag on Black Friday?

[jln]

Dec 3, 2014 14:12:42 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I'm going to move to have lys banned. I'm done.

Please do. I just can't deal with her blatant trolling bullshit.

[jlt19]

Dec 3, 2014 15:43:46 GMT -5 summer said:

Dec 3, 2014 15:17:27 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

Other than the last part (b/c everyone I know knows there's only one Arch) Lys' statements are what I've heard from almost everyone in my life, both FB and IRL. I have TWO friends who have been pretty in line with this board and it saddens me. I've done a lot of unfriending lately over this, but some people I just cannot quit. It just goes to show how incredibly racially divided this city truly is. And I promise you, these are not people that think they are racist or want to be racist, most are just unjustifiably ignorant.

Here is what I don't understand about people like you described here.  If you gave them something, factually-based, that went against their understanding of the world, would they just not read it? Or would they do some sort of mental gymnastics with it?

What if lys read  The Great Police Cover Up,  or  The Case For Reparations or watched this Slavery By Another Name?

They are all well-researched, the evidence is there....how does it not affect your thinking?  How do you reconcile these pieces with that world view?

I think most would just not read it. I'm seeing most of this on FB and I'm not a big FB debater b/c it's just not my style. Face to face I'll state my "side" and it's usually well received and taken into consideration, but I don't know if it's done any good. But to be honest, it's taken a multitude of well thought out opinions/posts on here for me to really see what the big picture is. That's definitely getting lost on a lot of people in St. Louis. 

[pixy0stix]

I put in a request to have lys banned. Ellie isn't usually on until the evening. I don't know if the globals have the power to ban.

[aurora]

Dec 3, 2014 15:43:46 GMT -5 summer said:

Dec 3, 2014 15:17:27 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

Other than the last part (b/c everyone I know knows there's only one Arch) Lys' statements are what I've heard from almost everyone in my life, both FB and IRL. I have TWO friends who have been pretty in line with this board and it saddens me. I've done a lot of unfriending lately over this, but some people I just cannot quit. It just goes to show how incredibly racially divided this city truly is. And I promise you, these are not people that think they are racist or want to be racist, most are just unjustifiably ignorant.

Here is what I don't understand about people like you described here.  If you gave them something, factually-based, that went against their understanding of the world, would they just not read it? Or would they do some sort of mental gymnastics with it?

What if lys read  The Great Police Cover Up,  or  The Case For Reparations or watched this Slavery By Another Name?

They are all well-researched, the evidence is there....how does it not affect your thinking?  How do you reconcile these pieces with that world view?

I have to say, I ended up in a debate about DW/MB/Fergusen over the holidays with a (white, male) family member that quickly spun into a pretty intense discussion on racism.  I really think the issue in this case is he's been privileged for so long without really being challenged as to his privilege that he just doesn't see it.*  He came back after a couple of hours to ask more, and was receptive to my arguments and wanted to learn more.  I think for people who mainly get their news from mainstream media, who have largely lived in largely homogeneous communities, who don't participate in forums like this one, and who are in the demographic in power, they sometimes just need to hear someone they respect speaking out to challenge them.  I hope we can continue the conversation as he reads and learns more.

I did think of you guys frequently during this discussion, though, and even read him one of ESF's quotes.


(By the way, I am not saying that it's right that he didn't seek to become more educated on his own, but just reflecting that I think for people like him it is possible to suggest material like you linked, summer, and to have them actually start to change their viewpoints.)

*ETA - when I write "just doesn't see it," I don't mean that he's unaware that white men hold disproportionate power, but that he doesn't have a very complete view of racism and privilege overall.

[Velar Fricative]

Dec 3, 2014 14:09:04 GMT -5 @majorwife said:

*Arch.

there is only one arch in STL, lys.

She must have thought there was a plan to blow up some McDonald's in St. Louis.

ETA: I see someone else already posted a McD's joke. LOL at Hamburglar.

[tacosforlife]

So I haven't paid as much attention to the legal details in this case as I should have. But is it fair to say that the bulk of the problem here was with the prosecuting attorney rather than the grand jurors themselves? I mean, if the people presenting the evidence and the law are issuing legally incorrect instructions, the grand jurors never really stood a chance to make the right call, did they?

ESF
@starlily

[summer]

Dec 3, 2014 15:51:15 GMT -5 @majorwife said:

Dec 3, 2014 15:43:46 GMT -5 summer said:

Here is what I don't understand about people like you described here.  If you gave them something, factually-based, that went against their understanding of the world, would they just not read it? Or would they do some sort of mental gymnastics with it?

What if lys read  The Great Police Cover Up,  or  The Case For Reparations or watched this Slavery By Another Name?

They are all well-researched, the evidence is there....how does it not affect your thinking?  How do you reconcile these pieces with that world view?

My experience has been that they wont read or view it. then they will attack you for bringing it up in the first place.

That's the thing. If someone said to me, "hear, read this. It may totally change your mind on something near and dear to you." I would TOTALLY read it, out of curiousity if nothing else.

[ESF]

Dec 3, 2014 16:05:40 GMT -5 tacosforlife said:

So I haven't paid as much attention to the legal details in this case as I should have. But is it fair to say that the bulk of the problem here was with the prosecuting attorney rather than the grand jurors themselves? I mean, if the people presenting the evidence and the law are issuing legally incorrect instructions, the grand jurors never really stood a chance to make the right call, did they?

ESF
@starlily

From what I've seen, this is the fault of the prosecutor.  Not only did he not want an indictment, but it was as if he actively sought to use the proceeding to exonerate Wilson of any wrongdoing.  So he did everything he could to ensure he got his way.  The entire proceeding was a sham.  It was worse than if no proceeding had been held at all.  

Do I think juror bias played a part?  Sure. But I really do believe that could have been overcome - at least at the grand jury stage - with a prosecutor that actually was doing his or her job.  

[ESF]

Dec 3, 2014 15:01:44 GMT -5 emilyj said:

"The assistant DA response? “As far as you need to know, just don’t worry about that.” The other county prosecutor jumped in, adding, “We don’t want to get into a law class.”

RAGE.

Can the ADA get in trouble for this?

Well, he'd only get in trouble if someone above him actually gave a shit.

Given that the office let a prosecutor with a known bias take the case, and didn't pull him when he started running the process in a highly unorthodox way, I think the entire office is completely fine with the miscarriage of justice they managed to carry out.

[sparrowsong]

Dec 3, 2014 16:09:47 GMT -5 summer said:

Dec 3, 2014 15:51:15 GMT -5 @majorwife said:

My experience has been that they wont read or view it. then they will attack you for bringing it up in the first place.

That's the thing. If someone said to me, "hear, read this. It may totally change your mind on something near and dear to you." I would TOTALLY read it, out of curiousity if nothing else.

There was an article someone posted a few months back about how if you try to present contradicting info to someone who is anti-vaccine or a climate change denier, they instead double down and become MORE steadfast in their POV. I'm worried for many, their response may be like that. Defensive.