Post by ChillyMcFreeze on Dec 18, 2014 8:54:30 GMT -5
SPOILERS
So Don's the nicest guy ever, there was a payphone at the Best Buy, and the Nisha call was likely a butt dial. And there's a petition to test the DNA!! That's huge. I liked that SK ended it by talking about Hae as a person, not just a plot device. That was a nice touch. Anyone feel dissatisfied even though we knew there would never be a nice bow?
And why did Jay work at a video store that was a good 20 minutes from where he lived? He must not have been the successful weed dealer everyone claims if he was making five bucks an hour across town.
And why did Jay work at a video store that was a good 20 minutes from where he lived? He must not have been the successful weed dealer everyone claims if he was making five bucks an hour across town.
I thought this AND about why Hae worked in Owings Mills too. All my jobs in high school were a LOT closer than what these people were doing.
And why did Jay work at a video store that was a good 20 minutes from where he lived? He must not have been the successful weed dealer everyone claims if he was making five bucks an hour across town.
I thought this AND about why Hae worked in Owings Mills too. All my jobs in high school were a LOT closer than what these people were doing.
I know!! This has been bugging me for weeks. I could sort of see Hae working at the mall because it was the closest mall to her and according to the Sun, she wanted to be an optometrist. But a video store? Apart from Video American where I could almost seem driving to work at, there were a ton of Blockbusters he could have worked at near his house. Or he could have worked at the infamous Best Buy or a CVS or whatever. And he didn't have a car! Did he take the Marc train? There are no buses that go from the Woodlawn area to Halethorpe.
Oh, another thing that bugged me - Sarah was making it sound like Ellicott City and Baltimore City are 1- two separate cities and 2 - SOOOOO far apart from one another.
Um, no. Ellicott City is a suburb of Baltimore and really not a "city". Maybe it's online and I should go check, but she was talking about Edmondson Ave. If Jay was on edmondson "in the city" - that's actually NOT THAT FAR from Ellicott City! The county/city line is pretty darn close.
I know!! This has been bugging me for weeks. I could sort of see Hae working at the mall because it was the closest mall to her and according to the Sun, she wanted to be an optometrist. But a video store? Apart from Video American where I could almost seem driving to work at, there were a ton of Blockbusters he could have worked at near his house. Or he could have worked at the infamous Best Buy or a CVS or whatever. And he didn't have a car! Did he take the Marc train? There are no buses that go from the Woodlawn area to Halethorpe.
I don't know -- the video store job doesn't bother me much. It's an adult video store, so not really the same as a Blockbuster. Maybe he knew someone who got him the job; maybe it was a good point of contact for his meager drug business. There are a lot of reasons I can come up with that aren't necessarily nefarious in any way.
I don't think it was nefarious in any way, as a kid in school in that area at the same time, I just don't know how he literally got to work or would choose to work there. We had our own local weed dealers so I don't think selling drugs would be a good reason. If you are making $5.20/hour anyway, why not work some place closer? It just irks me.
And then throwing in this serial killer that Sarah has never mentioned before now (but you would think she would have learned about this other strangulation in Owings Mills?)
And it still does not account for Jay b
The serial killer thing doesn't make a lot of sense. If you read articles from the time, they briefly float that theory but admit it didn't fit his profile.
If a serial killer killed her would be yet another thing that confirms that Adnan had the worst luck ever.
And why did Jay work at a video store that was a good 20 minutes from where he lived? He must not have been the successful weed dealer everyone claims if he was making five bucks an hour across town.
Who called Jenn's house phone?
Too many questions!
I wanted to come back to these points and to the point that the cell phone WAS in Leakin Park that night apparently.
I feel like those are three big issues that really count against Adnan and she just brushed them off. She barely talks about the possibility that he was in Leakin Park that night with Jay, burying the body. Does she really talk about what he does after being at Cathy's apartment or is it more just that someone said he was at the mosque so she fully accepts that? I can't recall that point.
And I mean, if you have to pull out the cellphone agreement from 1999 to prove that it "could" have been a butt dial - i mean, its possible, but not probable.
So I can see how people think there was reasonable doubt as to his guilt for the purposes of the conviction, but I'm not really getting a 100% innocent vibe from the story SK is telling.
SK doesn't get the "100% innocent vibe" either. She says point blank at the end that the evidence is circumstantial and that it's likely that both Jay AND Adnan aren't telling the truth, but that with all she knows if she was a juror she'd vote to acquit. I think she did well to separate the fact that she connected to and likes Adnan as a person, but doesn't believe his account of the day either.
Then again, I'm stuck on the "but what about Jay?!" thoughts. I keep coming back the idea that Jay was involved, but also lied so much, he could come out and admit more and make it honest, but he also won't do that if he helped kill or plot to kill Hae b/c then I'm sure his reduced sentence is over, right? So I think he has more of a hand in it. Jay seems less credible as the podcast has progressed and we've learned he has changed is story with the timeline and where he was and all this stuff. Especially when he's talking to the cops on this episode - when Jay can't remember if he was "threatened" by Adnan 1 or 2 days ago and can't remember where they were when he threatened him?! That's a lie. If he was scared and was threatened, he would remember if they were outside his house or in the car and that it was 1 or 2 days ago.
But for Don to be involved - which I could see, especially considering that Hae was with him the night before and wrote him that note* - it still would have to circle back to Jay which doesn't make sense.
*did SK mention that note or Hae being with Don on the 12th before this episode? Those seem like kind of big whammies so to speak.
I think she did mention that she was with Don the day before, but never the note. Sounds like Don never got the note since it was in his car, so to me that is weird since she was headed to leave it on his car or something?! Maybe some stranger did attack her, but what about Jay?!
So if it does come up with some DNA link to the serial rapist/convicted murderer my mind will be blown, but the note will make sense.
See I think her talk about "well Adnan's behavior etc etc" is just lip service to the idea that he did it- I think its pretty clear that she thinks he is innocent and wrongfully imprisoned, even if his memory of that day is shady. But that is just the vibe I got.
What about Adnan's behavior? Like that he was a stoned 17 year old who reacted different than Don? Or his behavior in prison? Or the dismissing of rumors last on the last episode?
I didn't get that vibe that Sarah 100% believes Adnan, I think she just kept hoping he would slip up and say something that would prove he's lying and he didn't and is personable, so she couldn't figure out how to feel about reconciling the "bad luck" that her and the producers see in the story and say is a LOT of bad luck on that one day, which would lead to circumstantial evidence that Adnan is the murderer with the Adnan she has been talking to.
Then again, I liked that she didn't seem to have her mind made up b/c that helped with the suspense of the episodes from leaving you with "Adnan totally did it" to "that makes no sense, someone is lying and Adnan shouldn't be in jail" feelings flip-flopping all the time.
I think she did mention that she was with Don the day before, but never the note. Sounds like Don never got the note since it was in his car, so to me that is weird since she was headed to leave it on his car or something?! Maybe some stranger did attack her, but what about Jay?!
So if it does come up with some DNA link to the serial rapist/convicted murderer my mind will be blown, but the note will make sense.
But this still brings us back to Jay. If he hadn't led to them to the car (everything else aside, messed up timeline, etc) - then there would be so many other possibilities. But with that - combined in my mind with the cell phone being in Leakin Park - it just eliminates so many other options in terms of what could have happened.
But the prosecution yelling at Don about making Adnan seem shadier makes me think that there could have easily been some shady police investigation to back that up and that they lied to Jay about other details to get him to lie about stuff. Not that he didn't know where Hae's car was, just that he isn't telling everything either and maybe he was scared of the cops/jail also.
But the prosecution yelling at Don about making Adnan seem shadier makes me think that there could have easily been some shady police investigation to back that up and that they lied to Jay about other details to get him to lie about stuff. Not that he didn't know where Hae's car was, just that he isn't telling everything either and maybe he was scared of the cops/jail also.
I don't understand what you are saying here. They lied to Jay about other details to get him to lie about stuff - do you think Jay lied about where the car was? do you think the police told him where it was and then said that he told them?
Yes, pretty much. I think Jay was coerced into some of what he said. Maybe they claimed they had more evidence than they did, maybe they threatened him, but seriously, why would Jay tell them where the car was and NOT where the body was or any details of the burial if he helped so much with burying Hae? That is what I don't get.
Yes, pretty much. I think Jay was coerced into some of what he said. Maybe they claimed they had more evidence than they did, maybe they threatened him, but seriously, why would Jay tell them where the car was and NOT where the body was or any details of the burial if he helped so much with burying Hae? That is what I don't get.
oh yeah I see that. that is definitely weird to me as well. Something shady was going on with Jay.
Kind of like SK said about the serial killer though, I just think it is more likely that Jay and Adnan did it together (Although it did not go down exactly like Jay said) hence his knowing where the car was, the cell phone being in Leakin Park, etc, as opposed to this whole thing being a setup on the part of the cops.
Yeah, I think they sometimes told Jay that they didn't want more details b/c it would be worse for him and better to build a case against Adnan. But if Jay really only helped bury the body and was worried for his girlfriend's safety, then I think he would have told a more complete story.
This is incredibly interesting, from a poster on Reddit:
Adnan could not have made the 3:32 Nisha call. I was surprised that SK missed such an obvious point. First, the 2:36 call could not have been the "come and get me" call for At least TWO reasons. Regardless of their re-enactment, there was too little time to kill Hae and phone Jay. But more important - and SK seems to miss this - both Jay and Jenn testified that Jay did not collect Adnan until after Jay left Jenn's place at about 3:45. They are both very consistent on this fact and Jenn is clear that Adnan was not with Jay when Jay was at her place up until about 3:45. Thus at 3:32 when the Nisha call was made, the phone was with Jay at Jenn's and we know by ALL accounts that Adnan was not there. So whatever happened with that call (butt dial? Jenn called Nisha? Someone else at Jenn's called Nisha?), we know it can't have been Adnan. The cell phone record backs this up and corroborates Jay and Jenn's stories. Jay called Jenn at 3:21 presumably to say he is coming over. The cell tower puts Jay just north or Jenn at 3:15-3:21. Then Jay leaves Jenn's before 4 because the cell locations show him at Jenn's until he makes a call at about 3:58 by which time he is north of the School heading for north of Linkin Park. Then there is the fact Jay obviously deliberately lied about the Nisha call. He knew the call he was referring to happened much later after he started his video store job. All of which had to be fresh in his memory in Feb when interviewed. So why lie deliberately about Adnan making the call and putting Jay on? If not, that is, to deliberately frame Adnan. To me, Jay is looking very guilty, but I can't see the motive. Note that Jenn messes up her lie when trying to cover for Jay. She says that Jay asked her to go back to the mall to clean prints off of the shovel - singular. Then she catches herself realizing that by telling the truth that there is only one shovel (on which Jay admits are his prints) Jenn then says shovels (plural) and makes the classic mistake of someone lying by saying "I don't know how many there were." Nonsense, she just went back with Jay to clean the shovel so she knows exactly how many. There was only one shovel and it is admitted to be owned by Jay and admitted to have his prints on it. The other nail in the coffin for Jay is the fact there simply isn't a call on the cell log that could possibly have been the "come and get me" call. The 2:36 one just can't work, not can the 3:15. Yet we know something happened to Hae well before then since she never turned up to collect her cousin (or was intercepted) when she tried to turn up. While this episode 6 sounded bad for Adnan, in fact it helped show the opposite. To me it looks very bad for Jay.
Darnit. This makes sense also. So maybe Jen won't talk b/c she is the accessory to murder and Jay is the murderer. But why would Jay kill Hae?
If Jay or Jenn had called Nisha, don't you think she would have remembered that? she has a three minute convo with someone Adnan knows that she doesn't?
No answering machine could easily mean a phone ringing and ringing and ringing, right? My ILs don't have an answering machine or voicemail on their home phone and you could just get a 3 minute call of ringing if nobody is home.
And why did Jay work at a video store that was a good 20 minutes from where he lived? He must not have been the successful weed dealer everyone claims if he was making five bucks an hour across town.
Who called Jenn's house phone?
Too many questions!
I wanted to come back to these points and to the point that the cell phone WAS in Leakin Park that night apparently.
I feel like those are three big issues that really count against Adnan and she just brushed them off. She barely talks about the possibility that he was in Leakin Park that night with Jay, burying the body. Does she really talk about what he does after being at Cathy's apartment or is it more just that someone said he was at the mosque so she fully accepts that? I can't recall that point.
And I mean, if you have to pull out the cellphone agreement from 1999 to prove that it "could" have been a butt dial - i mean, its possible, but not probable.
So I can see how people think there was reasonable doubt as to his guilt for the purposes of the conviction, but I'm not really getting a 100% innocent vibe from the story SK is telling.
I know! She just brushes these facts off when they are one of the few physical facts in this case.
Post by lyssbobiss, Command, B613 on Dec 18, 2014 12:22:14 GMT -5
If it isn't some random serial killer, I think Jay and Adnan worked together. The fact that someone who had the phone drove from one end of town to the other end of town where the car wound up stashed made me think they were discussing the plan together and decided that's where they would hide her car. They split up (Adnan to school and Jay to jen's) to try to create an alibi but they're kids and high as fuck and they messed up. I have no idea what the motive is though.
"This prick is asking for someone here to bring him to task Somebody give me some dirt on this vacuous mass so we can at last unmask him I'll pull the trigger on it, someone load the gun and cock it While we were all watching, he got Washington in his pocket."
Post by ChillyMcFreeze on Dec 18, 2014 12:29:16 GMT -5
Stephanie did it and they're covering for her. Because... she was in love with Adnan (hence killing Hae to get her out of the picture), but Jay can't accept that so he blames Adnan, and Adnan loved Stephanie so he won't implicate her, and Jenn also has a thing for Jay, so she's trying to protect him and put the blame on Adnan. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
No answering machine could easily mean a phone ringing and ringing and ringing, right? My ILs don't have an answering machine or voicemail on their home phone and you could just get a 3 minute call of ringing if nobody is home.
Three minutes is a long time though. I can't see someone waiting for three minutes for the phone to be answered, particularly if it is someone they didn't know. (Like if Jenn called Nisha). Unless there was a lot more going on and she HAD to talk to Nisha for some reason so was waiting for her to pick up.
Yeah, I was thinking Jay was high and didn't realize he was inadvertently calling (ie butt dialing) someone for 3 minutes. Oh and I should mention that even just last week, I inadvertently called my sister with my phone in my pocket and she was laughing b/c she was hearing me yell at my kids to get them out of the door and into the car for like 2 minutes before she just hung up. Then she called me back and told me that I'd called her.
But this still brings us back to Jay. If he hadn't led to them to the car (everything else aside, messed up timeline, etc) - then there would be so many other possibilities. But with that - combined in my mind with the cell phone being in Leakin Park - it just eliminates so many other options in terms of what could have happened.
But the prosecution yelling at Don about making Adnan seem shadier makes me think that there could have easily been some shady police investigation to back that up and that they lied to Jay about other details to get him to lie about stuff. Not that he didn't know where Hae's car was, just that he isn't telling everything either and maybe he was scared of the cops/jail also.
Don't forget about the lawyer that Jay was provided with at the request of the prosecution!
But the prosecution yelling at Don about making Adnan seem shadier makes me think that there could have easily been some shady police investigation to back that up and that they lied to Jay about other details to get him to lie about stuff. Not that he didn't know where Hae's car was, just that he isn't telling everything either and maybe he was scared of the cops/jail also.
Don't forget about the lawyer that Jay was provided with at the request of the prosecution!
I did forget... Gosh there really is so much shady stuff around Jay and his story and his involvement with the police/prosecution that I'm getting more and more skeptical about anything he says.
Don't forget about the lawyer that Jay was provided with at the request of the prosecution!
I did forget... Gosh there really is so much shady stuff around Jay and his story and his involvement with the police/prosecution that I'm getting more and more skeptical about anything he says.
Yeah there is just too much stuff that doesn't add up about Jay either. I think that if Adnan did do it (and I'm not convinced) that he didn't act alone. Jay had to have been in on it. How else would he know where Hae's car was? Why else would he need to clean prints off of a shovel and throw away his clothing?
I think too much is being made of the Nisha call. I think it easily could have been a butt dial or mistake of some kind that the caller didn't even realize was happening. It was 1999. Cell phones were new(ish). This particular cell phone was brand new to both Adnan and Jay. I think Jay could have easily called someone in the phone book accidentally and not even realized it or accidentally called a number and not realized he didn't hang up/end the call - allowing the phone to ring for 2 minutes and 22 seconds.
The only really concrete thing that stands out to me through the entirety of this podcast is that Jay had something to do with it. Period. He knew where Hae's car was. That's the only substantial fact that cannot be disputed, IMO.
There is more evidence of Jay's culpability than there is Adnan Sayed's. And that kind of sticks with me. That Jay knew all of this information and crafted a timeline to roughly match cell-phone records; and apparently was never himself considered a suspect?
And don't forget the prosecution arranged for his defense lawyer on another charge! Fishy fishy all over.
The only really concrete thing that stands out to me through the entirety of this podcast is that Jay had something to do with it. Period. He knew where Hae's car was. That's the only substantial fact that cannot be disputed, IMO.
There is more evidence of Jay's culpability than there is Adnan Sayed's. And that kind of sticks with me. That Jay knew all of this information and crafted a timeline to roughly match cell-phone records; and apparently was never himself considered a suspect?
And don't forget the prosecution arranged for his defense lawyer on another charge! Fishy fishy all over.
So my problem with just trying to put Jay as a suspect is that Adnan's lawyer, Guterriez, didn't go this route, which (if she really was mostly sane and even mildly good at her job) why didn't she offer him as an alternative directly? I think she was trying to get here with the "stepping out" stuff and the first trial tirade about Jay's pro-bono lawyer being provided by the prosecution, etc., but she didn't develop it enough to make it doubtful that Adnan did the killing and more likely that Jay did the killing.
I still believe Adnan did it. Jay was involved (maybe during or after the fact) and that's it. Their story is a mess because they were high and stupid and scared 17 year olds or because there is more to the story they, for whatever reason, don't want to share. There is just no other reasonable explanation.
I don't like the way Sarah waffled (even though she says she didn't) in the end. "Well legally I don't think this case met the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard." Okay then. You are using a legal theory in a really non legal way! What was the jury instructed on reasonable doubt? And how come none of the appeals have been on insufficiency of the evidence if there is all this legally "reasonable doubt." Depending on what Adnan's jury was told, reasonable doubt doesn't mean there can't be no doubt or they have to have absolute certainty. But the podcast doesn't even touch this. Just "Hi reporter Sarah Koenig here...I have REASONABLE DOUBT that this guy did it." Ok. Thanks.