So, son-in-law is military and stationed in Japan. As such, we haven't seen the kids since they moved to Japan in August 2013. They got leave this Christmas to fly out here to visit us and his family in Colorado. They have free military flights, but it's on a reserved, as-space-is-available limit and you don't find out until within a few hours of the flight leaving whether you can fly out or not.
He was granted leave (vacation time) and must be back at his desk at Misawa on the 30th at 7:00 a.m. He has basically 60 days of accrued vacation time but they'll only let him take two weeks and they mandated the blocks of vacation time and that's what you get. He found out today that there are only 5 seats available for the return flight and he may or may not have a chance to fly out on the Patriot. We've been checking online for ticket availability. Instead of leaving Sunday they would have to leave tomorrow afternoon to catch the 6:00 flight time. Unfortunately they won't know if they have the seats or if they're going elsewhere. So they have to leave BEFORE they find out whether they can get a free flight back or not. In order to not take chances, they're flying commercial jumbo jet. Which cost another $4,000 to get them on. Those poor folks, it's tough to get a hand up or a hand out depending on your humanity level. Instead of a straight shot to the rancher, pretty much everyone else was gone.
(ETA: and what the eff is that last bit supposed to mean? I am freaking hilarious when I'm exhausted or stressed or whatever I was at that point. A straight shot to the rancher must mean a straight shot home - nonstop - but who the heck was "everyone else was gone"? That must be nobody was at the desk or answering the phones. omglolwtfetc)
I'm sorry about the stress that must be. :-( I am military also and flown space-a dozens of times. Space-A flights are notoriously hard to get seats on over the holidays. Summer is also rough. If they try and come back again next year, can you "move Christmas" a few weeks a few weeks earlier or later? We've flown space-a overseas in early/mid December with no issues. Did they do research on the tricks of the trade with space-a, about signing up, starting leave before you even want to travel, etc? There is a lot of information online with hints on how to increase the chances of flights. But for firm leave dates at Christmas time, their best bet would be to buy tickets in advance at a good price. Space a is really only good for flexible dates during off seasons when schools are in session and not over holidays. I'm sorry they got stuck both literally, and with such a huge expense for tickets. :-(
That is the dumbest set up ever. Why would they (the military) do that? What if someone doesn't have $4k and can't get back? Just give out assigned seats in advance!
Jlt19- these are SPACE AVAILABLE flights! The military doesn't fly these flights so people can visit family. These are actual military mission flights that they let people fly on for free if there is space after allowing for the mission. Sometimes the mission is moving people to deployed locations (Patriot Express or rotator it's called) sometimes it's moving wounded military, sometimes it's hauling cargo. But they don't know how much space will be available until they load up everything that is for the mission -that is why there aren't "reservations" in advance. As a military person (like OP's son in law) you don't have to roll the dice on these flights. Most military just buy a flight on commercial airlines in advance because space available flights are stressful and often expensive if you get stuck and can't get back. It's a gamble. If you win, it's free. If not, it's very expensive to buy a last minute ticket. But again - the military doesn't run these flights to be nice. These are military missions. I've literally been loaded into these flights and right before taking off they kick us off to make room for something mission-essential.
Space A is notoriously like this. We flew space A to Hawaii this past summer and I know we read, and possibly signed off on, a bunch of things telling us that they were under no obligation to get us back to California. Leave blocks are in 2 week increments over the holidays because most commands are at 50% manning over the holidays so the first group gets the two weeks around Christmas and the second group gets the two weeks around New Years. If he were to not return, someone else might not get to fly home to visit family.
I'm actually really surprised he flew home space A for the holidays. That is BALLSY. Truly.
Could HE fly back solo on the Space A flight (since getting one seat would definitely be easier than getting the whole family on) and then have his family follow on a flight a little further away from Christmas where the loads will be lighter? When my husband and I went to Hawaii last summer that was going to be our plan had we not been able to get seats when we wanted. I would have stayed and he would have gone.
For those of you all reading, Space A flights are not an entitlement. They are military missions where the military graciously allows some people to jump aboard. It's cheap travel with risk. During the holidays and summer time it is notoriously busy. Not to say this situation isn't sucky, but it was completely and totally predicable.
Like everyone else said, I'm AMAZED they thought space a was the way to go around the holidays, especially with a family flying with him. It's a sucky situation, but this is why most people fly commercial.
Thank you ohyouknow I had never heard of this before, so after your explanation it makes more sense. It is nice that the military offers it if there's room, but damn that's a huge gamble to take.
Can he fly back now, and the rest of the family fly back another day? I'm sure a few extra days in a hotel would be far less expensive than $4k for everyone to return on a commercial flight right now.
It's the first time they've ever tried it and the vacation was block planned. He grew up military though so he knows how it works. Her dad (XH) is military but was disabled when she was little so she's never had to deal with this kind of stuff before, just military disabled stuff.
He was given a choice of Christmas or New Years and the block of dates for which his leave would be approved; his was approved only after his boss got his approved first and they only got the approval something like four or six weeks ago. They also looked into flying to the bases nearer Tokyo but the flight they would have taken was *cancelled* recently due to a lack of requests for seats (not enough seats filled/ too many available) and my guess is those folks were seated on the Misawa flight. They figured they had three air bases to get back to Japan and would fly back commercial or take the train back once they knew where they would be landing if they couldn't get a direct flight to Misawa.
We suggested that DD stay with us until the next patriot next week but that would have bumped her down two levels and make it even less likely that she would get a seat until after school started because DoD teachers get priority over most other seats so if there is a DoD teacher wanting to fly back *next* week that would put her and the kids off for yet another week. But that would give them a one-seat option for him while she stayed behind and make it more likely that he could get a direct flight back.
Thankfully he's very financially savvy and they have the money. It just irks my daughter that they're paying the cost of a car to get here and back rather than the military making allowances for people stationed overseas for three years to never be able to fly home to see their families over the holidays. A friend of theirs has his family living in Hawaii and he's been to see them eight times this year. But to fly to the states is another leg, a lot more time and if they'd given him ONE MORE DAY on his leave then he would be able to attend roll call to see if they would have seats available rather than purchasing tickets to get back while they are here. Because of how the flights are stacked (and losing a day in transit because of time zone differences) from Misawa they wouldn't get back until three hours after his leave was over if they caught any flight after the Patriot left.
She's going to be here next summer for a longer block when her DH is on an assignment so they'll be able to make more transitory arrangements to return next time, thankfully. And I have no problem moving Christmas (I always do...we've done Christmas in January for her in the past) but these were the dates he was given. Poor guy has two months leave stacked up and couldn't even get one extra day.
Post by ElizabethBennet on Dec 27, 2014 15:16:53 GMT -5
I don't think it's the military's responsibility to make sure a family gets home for visits. This is one of the things you sign up for with the military. It sucks but it is what it is. I'm surprised that they tried to get on these flights at all.
They'll be home on time. They've already purchased the tickets and are leaving today (Patriot would have given them a direct flight to base, no layovers, no connections and at least nine hours less travel time). It just sucks that it's almost $10K down the toilet to visit us when there is a "free" option. Or that he could wait until tomorrow to see if they even had a chance of him or all of them even getting on the Patriot because of how the leave time was allotted in conjunction with time zone differentials. Four hours late to his desk rather than returning one day later so they can't even check for the Patriot roll call.
(And I've priced it out, the price isn't much different even with advanced notice because it's still $6-7K just for airfare for us to fly out to visit them too.)
That is the dumbest set up ever. Why would they (the military) do that? What if someone doesn't have $4k and can't get back? Just give out assigned seats in advance!
Well, just like in a civilian job, you don't go away on vacation if you can't afford the return flight to get back to work on time. The military isn't in the business of vacation planning and travel accommodations.
I don't think this is entirely analogous. In a civilian job, they don't ship you to another country with or without your choice. Many jobs that hire Americans overseas explicitly cover travel costs for the employee and family back to the home country a few times a year at full cost tickets. One could also argue the military should operate more like that. Instead it is a different situation from either.
WOT?*: I can understand why your daughter is frustrated. That is a lot of money and inconvenience.
Well, just like in a civilian job, you don't go away on vacation if you can't afford the return flight to get back to work on time. The military isn't in the business of vacation planning and travel accommodations.
I don't think this is entirely analogous. In a civilian job, they don't ship you to another country with or without your choice. Many jobs that hire Americans overseas explicitly cover travel costs for the employee and family back to the home country a few times a year at full cost tickets. One could also argue the military should operate more like that. Instead it is a different situation from either.
WOT?*: I can understand why your daughter is frustrated. That is a lot of money and inconvenience.
Yes, but when you join the military, you don't join for the travel benefits...
It's the first time they've ever tried it and the vacation was block planned. He grew up military though so he knows how it works. Her dad (XH) is military but was disabled when she was little so she's never had to deal with this kind of stuff before, just military disabled stuff.
He was given a choice of Christmas or New Years and the block of dates for which his leave would be approved; his was approved only after his boss got his approved first and they only got the approval something like four or six weeks ago. They also looked into flying to the bases nearer Tokyo but the flight they would have taken was *cancelled* recently due to a lack of requests for seats (not enough seats filled/ too many available) and my guess is those folks were seated on the Misawa flight. They figured they had three air bases to get back to Japan and would fly back commercial or take the train back once they knew where they would be landing if they couldn't get a direct flight to Misawa.
We suggested that DD stay with us until the next patriot next week but that would have bumped her down two levels and make it even less likely that she would get a seat until after school started because DoD teachers get priority over most other seats so if there is a DoD teacher wanting to fly back *next* week that would put her and the kids off for yet another week. But that would give them a one-seat option for him while she stayed behind and make it more likely that he could get a direct flight back.
Thankfully he's very financially savvy and they have the money. It just irks my daughter that they're paying the cost of a car to get here and back rather than the military making allowances for people stationed overseas for three years to never be able to fly home to see their families over the holidays. A friend of theirs has his family living in Hawaii and he's been to see them eight times this year. But to fly to the states is another leg, a lot more time and if they'd given him ONE MORE DAY on his leave then he would be able to attend roll call to see if they would have seats available rather than purchasing tickets to get back while they are here. Because of how the flights are stacked (and losing a day in transit because of time zone differences) from Misawa they wouldn't get back until three hours after his leave was over if they caught any flight after the Patriot left.
She's going to be here next summer for a longer block when her DH is on an assignment so they'll be able to make more transitory arrangements to return next time, thankfully. And I have no problem moving Christmas (I always do...we've done Christmas in January for her in the past) but these were the dates he was given. Poor guy has two months leave stacked up and couldn't even get one extra day.
He doesn't *have* to take leave over the two weeks he was given. He could choose to work the holiday and go in January, February March, etc. And to compare someone that got to see their family in Hawaii 8 times is ridiculous. I mean, the military has stationed me in D.C., I can't be upset that my neighbor from Virginia gets to see her family more than I get to see mine out west, right? Hawaii is a lot closer to Japan than CONUS, and you have no idea how much that guy has spent to go see his family either. I really feel bad that your DD had to spend so much and it was such a bad experience flying space-a, but I really feel a MINIMAL amount of googling would have told them how hard it was to get flights over certain dates over the holidays.
I don't think this is entirely analogous. In a civilian job, they don't ship you to another country with or without your choice. Many jobs that hire Americans overseas explicitly cover travel costs for the employee and family back to the home country a few times a year at full cost tickets. One could also argue the military should operate more like that. Instead it is a different situation from either.
WOT?*: I can understand why your daughter is frustrated. That is a lot of money and inconvenience.
Yes, but when you join the military, you don't join for the travel benefits...
Of course not. But joining the military doesn't mean you can't get annoyed by it sometimes and certainly doesn't mean your spouse can't be annoyed. I'm sure her daughter isn't complaining to her husband's superior about this. She just vented to her mom. They were hoping things would work out differently. They didn't. She's allowed to privately feel annoyed.
He doesn't *have* to take leave over the two weeks he was given. He could choose to work the holiday and go in January, February March, etc. And to compare someone that got to see their family in Hawaii 8 times is ridiculous. I mean, the military has stationed me in D.C., I can't be upset that my neighbor from Virginia gets to see her family more than I get to see mine out west, right? Hawaii is a lot closer to Japan than CONUS, and you have no idea how much that guy has spent to go see his family either. I really feel bad that your DD had to spend so much and it was such a bad experience flying space-a, but I really feel a MINIMAL amount of googling would have told them how hard it was to get flights over certain dates over the holidays.
No, but to take the leave for the holiday, he had to take that block or the other block. And grandson has school so choices are limited by that as well. They wanted to see their family for Christmas (not just us but his family was all flying in to Colorado for the holidays as well) for the first time in two years, spend their first Christmas with the new baby in the states. This has just been a crazy, hectic two weeks. Tonight they'll be flying for 34 hours (including layovers) instead of the 10 they were hoping for with the Space A. Flight from Japan to here, drop off her son at his dad's, three days here, flight to Colorado, five days there, flight back here for two days, pick up her son, stop at our house to drop off the car, visit for a few hours and drop them off at the airport.
They also did have to take the time during Christmas because her son didn't get to see his dad over the summer due to passport (and new baby) issues and so visitation was required during the Christmas break or there could have been some major complications. She would have had to fly out commercial anyway, come to think on it.
And they weren't *stuck stuck* thankfully. They had the money to fly out and back. They would have just preferred to not spend it, and not spend 20-34 hours in transit via plane, plane, train/plane with two kids (including an infant) when they could take a straight flight from our airport to their base on a Patriot (the only flight that has non-stop flights to their base leaves from our airport here) and be there in ten hours instead.
(And to answer the Hawaii/Japan thing, she was just venting because he was able to get a patriot there and back to see his family, eight times this year and all by patriot transit so no fee; he was posting picture on FB and she saw them and had a bitter moment, which I totally understand because I've gotten to see the grandson for a total of four hours today and about five hours the morning after he got here. And the schedule is a lot easier for Japan/Hawaii because of the transit schedules and time zone differentials. She was just venting because their one trip this year cost them so much money. I figure venting is allowed and yes, I feel bad for them because he was voluntold for this billet and she spent the first year pregnant and the second year trying to get her to introduce her baby to the families that haven't seen her and get her son to see his dad for the first time in almost two years.)
But all things considered, this lovely group is currently en route to Tokyo as I type this.
And I got to see grandson for an entire four hours today in addition to the overnight stay from 11:00 p.m. until his dad picked him up from our visit with Santa at about 1:00 the next afternoon. And even more important, I MADE THAT SCARF SHE IS WEARING! First time in 30 years I picked up a crochet hook and she got a scarf and hat out of the deal.
Post by karmasabiotch on Dec 28, 2014 6:12:08 GMT -5
What a bad system. I think commercial flights should eat the cost or at least greatly reduce the costs for flights for our hero's serving for our country.
What a bad system. I think commercial flights should eat the cost or at least greatly reduce the costs for flights for our hero's serving for our country.
Let's be practical here.
The American military is GIGANTIC and commercial airlines are businesses, not charities.
What a bad system. I think commercial flights should eat the cost or at least greatly reduce the costs for flights for our hero's serving for our country.
Let's be practical here.
The American military is GIGANTIC and commercial airlines are businesses, not charities.
Commercial airlines do give discounts but sometimes they are sold out. And I do believe discounts should be given. Our military do lay a lot on the line and even though they do it voluntarily, they do it when others don't
Post by hopenotlost on Dec 28, 2014 16:04:24 GMT -5
Yep Space-A sucks. We were flying from Bahrain back to Iowa when my grandpa died via Space-A, and my dad and I got bumped by a family going. We were stuck in Spain for about 4 days and missed the funeral, and later found out that the airport on the base in Spain (which is ran by the Spanish military rather than the US military) messed up and we should have had priority since we were going back for a funeral, rather than just vacation.
Post by killercupcake on Dec 28, 2014 16:09:53 GMT -5
I feel like I read somewhere or was told that the military requires you to prove that you have the means to fly back commercially in case space isn't available. So it sucks, but for those up in arms, nobody is being blindsided.
killercupcake - those tatas are mesmerizing. The whole sig is overall hilarious but those flinging tatas are beyond words.
hopenotlost - I am so sorry. I missed my grandmother's funeral service by hours but they held the casket open for me as I was about 30-45 minutes away when the service ended. I at least got to say goodbye.
I would guess the number of people they are trying to fly affected whether they would have seats too. The guy flying to Hawaii several times sounds like he only needed 1 seat - that's a lot easier to accommodate than seats for an entire family.
I would guess the number of people they are trying to fly affected whether they would have seats to. The guy flying to Hawaii several times sounds like he only needed 1 seats - that's a lot easier to accommodate than seats for an entire family.
Yup, exactly. There were 13 seats going out of Misawa; they were #20-23. The poor guy who was #13 was traveling with a wife and two kids. He was told "you can go but they'll have to go on a different flight." Poor guy had to give up his seat. Same situation as mine, traveling with family and needing four seats. The rest of the seats were all taken with singles and I think one double. The flight back from Seattle had only five seats. They could have made it on only if they were #1 (or 2 if 1 was a single) or there were no-shows for the Active Duty/On Orders passengers, which I find unlikely.
What a bad system. I think commercial flights should eat the cost or at least greatly reduce the costs for flights for our hero's serving for our country.
Uh, what? Private companies should be forced to subsidize travel for people who chose to join the military??
No, but it would be nice, wouldn't it? Another way of paying back for their service. A number of them do, or give exceptions for baggage (number or weight) or stuff like that. They do offer benefits for active duty service members quite regularly.
killercupcake - those tatas are mesmerizing. The whole sig is overall hilarious but those flinging tatas are beyond words.
hopenotlost - I am so sorry. I missed my grandmother's funeral service by hours but they held the casket open for me as I was about 30-45 minutes away when the service ended. I at least got to say goodbye.
I was sad, but I was happy my mom at least got to say goodbye to her dad.
What a bad system. I think commercial flights should eat the cost or at least greatly reduce the costs for flights for our hero's serving for our country.
Uh, what? Private companies should be forced to subsidize travel for people who chose to join the military??
No of course not. I don't think anyone should be forced to do anything. I just think that if they have empty seats and the plane is going anyway they could offer a lower fare. A good will gesture. Definitely not forced. I don't travel often so I could be totally off the mark with this one.
It says something when all the military ML'ers are saying that this was insanity. Is she already on the plane? So solutions don't matter? If they might help, can your husband transfer FF miles? I believe airlines will sometimes be flexible with FF benefits for military. Alternatively, can he take the flight he can get, and if your daughter can't get on a flight within the next two weeks then she flies home commercial?
I also don't think it's really a hand up when we are talking about someone already gainfully employed. It's not a hand out either. Wrong terminology entirely. It's a perk, and per the military folks, it appears to be one that isn't guaranteed, like a lawyer being mad there isn't space on the corporate jet for them.
It actually reads more like you are mad for YOU (and your time getting cut short) than for them. Because they aren't out of pocket anything they wouldn't have been anyway to come home. So why don't you go visit them? Problem solved.