The housing bust busted black folks

[mcfelix]

This is so heartbreaking to read. I work in homebuilding and I've worked for two national builders that have communities in PG county. We had a community open for sale in 2005 and base prices got up to the $800s - 3,000 to 5,000 SF McMansions on 1/3 acre lots. Now those homes sell for about half that. It really is tragic. Public schools in PG county are not highly regarded and even the more affluent sections (upper Marlboro, Mitchellville, parts of Bowie) are thought of as communities for affluent black families. Very few white families buy there and, in my experience, many of the white families that buy they are relocating from another state for military, federal government or contractor jobs. With it's proximity to DC, it really amazes me that the county's reputation hasn't improved.

Also, of our total pool of buyers throughout metro Baltimore and DC, we had the hardest time getting PG county buyers qualified for loans. Many of our buyers were very high income families with great jobs, but often had low credit scores and very little savings. The cancellation rate due to buyers not getting approved for a loan was substantially higher in PG than in any of the other MD or VA counties where we built homes.

[iammalcolmx]

When H and I moved to Atlanta we wanted to find a Burb like PG County. We decided to move to the City mainly because Atlanta was pretty segregated in the Burbs so we felt most comfortable in the City. The Atlanta burbs like PG are having a similar issue.

[ESF]

All I know is that I can't wait until the Supreme Court guts the Fair Housing Act later this spring so that banks will be free to engage in even more discrimination in housing and mortgage lending. 

Let Freedom Ring!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lys]

A related article on the housing crisis by Michael Barone (Real Clear Politics) worth reading

www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2015/01/23/government_created_the_housing_and_financial_crises_---_and_might_be_doing_it_again_125357.html

Basically, the government in it's attempt to help those who could not afford to buy a house, buy one by changing standards and regulations. And we are once again on the road to do more of the same - with possibly the same results.

[iammalcolmx]

I do all employment verifications at the company. I don't see any relaxing of standard's by the banks due to all the questions I get asked about everyone income AND I don't get verifications for my employees with more limited incomes and bad credit. The new sub prime boom is car loans.

[NitaX]

Jan 25, 2015 16:49:51 GMT -5 @mrsbecky said:

I was reading this this morning! It's fascinating, particularly when compared to the Atlantic article a few months back about redlining and black homebuyers in the mid century.

As a Marylander who always heard the vague "PG county is bad" growing up, working retail there was eye opening. I had no clue that it was the wealthiest black county - but I sure knew it after a big sale weekend at Loft :-) we were one of the most successful stores in the district after Towson (an affluent white baltimore suburb). I kind of think of that as the beginning of my understanding of my bubble and white privilege.

Because BAD = Tons of Black People. 

And while I'm at it 
GOT.MUTHAFUCKING.DAYUMIT lys - this isn't a story about how people making $30K decided to buy a $800K house. It's about solidly middle class and upper middle class folks getting knocking flat on their asses by the downturn. I'm so sick of that bullshit ass fucking talking point while people skip over the fact that the reason these values haven't even begun to recover is that the good white people haven't decided to take it on as their next gentrification project.

I would like to point to this article as describing the thing I've said on this board for AGES. White folks move out and somewhere in the system, values are decreased the minute a bunch of black folks show up. Black folks with good fucking jobs - Military Vets, working for the government  in jobs that mean they can afford the house that they bought. Hell, I'm not even anywhere near DC and I've always known that PG County was home to wealthy black folks. 

Also, I share these folks' pain because even my home has tanked in value. I can kiss about $40K on my home value goodbye. I'm never going to get it back. So, my only recourse is to try and throw a bunch of money in it and hope I can refi as soon as the value and what I put in get to a point that I can. And trust me, I did NOT buy more house than I can afford. So take that shit and stick it up your ass. And BET not another soul come up in this thread talking bout folks overspent without fully reading and trying to wrap your head around a system that devalues black neighborhoods EVEN WHEN the income is well above the national average.

[cookiemdough]

Nitaw said it all.

[cookiemdough]

Jan 25, 2015 20:35:15 GMT -5 pennypenny said:

Haven't read the article, but I live in PG county. Born and raised. I think the only other person I know here that lives here as well is cookiemdough

Sent from my SCH-I535 using proboards

It is depressing and true.

[orangeblossom]

Jan 25, 2015 22:11:18 GMT -5 @songforyou said:

pennypenny and/or cookiemdough, do you think that PG county also became less attractive to black families somewhere along the line? I always thought what was sustaining the county was the upper middle class black population anyway. It feels like this should have been the exception to the white flight = lower property values rule, but it seems that it wasn't. Why do you guys think that is?

I can't speak for them, but thd majority of my family lives there, and I have a few times, though never as a homeowner.

You do hear black people saying, nope, I'm not moving there and that they'd rather go to VA or Howard, Montgomery and even as far as Charles county.

I think the school issue is a big one, and then there is the stigma of crime, and until recently the real lack of quality shopping. Crime exists, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be.

Honestly, no matter what your race, no one really wants to live in a declining area, or perceived to be declining area, even if the people look like you, and if money can get you elsewhere, then you go elsewhere.

[Deleted]

Jan 25, 2015 17:04:30 GMT -5 @mx said:

I know quite a few white people who live in PG, but all (save one) are married to a black person. The only one who isn't has a Hispanic immigrant spouse and lives in a part of the county where that community is located.

I have not, in nearly 15 years here, ever heard a white couple who planned to move to the suburbs discuss it as an option.

I grew up in PG county. Both of my parents are white. They still live there.

I think there were some very valid points of that article,but also some really sloppy ones. Comparing Reston to Bowie is apples to oranges. Reston has a separate center of business. Many people live in Reston because they work in Reston. It's not just a DC suburb. One can ask why that is, and that's possibly a separate, valid concern. But you can't make the point the article is trying to make and not account for other signifant factors.

[orangeblossom]

Jan 25, 2015 22:46:25 GMT -5 @songforyou said:

Jan 25, 2015 22:28:19 GMT -5 orangeblossom said:

I can't speak for them, but thd majority of my family lives there, and I have a few times, though never as a homeowner.

You do hear black people saying, nope, I'm not moving there and that they'd rather go to VA or Howard, Montgomery and even as far as Charles county.

I think the school issue is a big one, and then there is the stigma of crime, and until recently the real lack of quality shopping. Crime exists, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be.

Honestly, no matter what your race, no one wants to live in a declining area, or perceived to be declining area, even if the people look like you, and if money can get you elsewhere, then you go elsewhere.

Interesting.   Most of my in-laws are in DC and I couldn't see them moving to PG County, either, but I think that's more a function of them not wanting to live anywhere that isn't DC proper.  I totally get that no one wants to live somewhere on the decline but I don't really understand the sentiment of the article that non-black people not wanting to live in PGC are tied to the decline when I thought that basically was always the case.

I think that's always been the case, but the author badly tried to say, that before it didn't matter as much, but since the recession, not having white people there is making a comeback even harder.

[cookiemdough]

Jan 25, 2015 22:11:18 GMT -5 @songforyou said:

pennypenny and/or cookiemdough, do you think that PG county also became less attractive to black families somewhere along the line? I always thought what was sustaining the county was the upper middle class black population anyway. It feels like this should have been the exception to the white flight = lower property values rule, but it seems that it wasn't. Why do you guys think that is?

So yes, with gentrification of DC many lower socioeconomic families came to some of the southern parts of the county. As a result crime spiked and the reputation for schools got worse. The negatives have been on the decline yet the reputation has remained. I do think there are some black Families who won't move to the county due to school reputation or concerns regarding resale. But for those that are thinking they will stay in the county for the long term and have disposable income to navigate the schools if they don't find them suitable, you can't really beat the type of home you could get for the money. The other problem is that moving to a loudon area severely limits diversity. So African American families have to weigh commute and concerns regarding their child being one of a few in a massive school district. It is just not an easy answer.

I will say the school reputation is not deserved. My son goes to a magnet public school. But before he got into that school I did a lot of research based on fears of the local school. I found that unless you send your child to an elite private school the other private options weren't that great academically. They basically offered a path to good private high schools but the curriculum itself for the lower private schools wasn't that challenging. An involved parent could ensure their kid does well in a public school. It is frustrating because so many families that could really be great in turning around the schools have opted out the system.

Combine that with the lack of commercial businesses coming in, the county is somewhat stifles in growth and now with the bust there is little hope of turning things around for current homeowners.

[cookiemdough]

Jan 25, 2015 23:10:20 GMT -5 @songforyou said:

Jan 25, 2015 22:56:13 GMT -5 orangeblossom said:

I think that's always been the case, but the author badly tried to say, that before it didn't matter as much, but since the recession, not having white people there is making a comeback even harder.

Yeah, this article is roughly written (not just re this point, but also BirdGirl's point about the Bowie v. Reston comparison).  The author also could have chosen a better feature couple.  I don't think that the couple necessarily bought more home than they could afford, but it's hard to empathize with the assertion that the mortgage payments have increased so drastically when we learn that it's not necessarily because of some predatory ARM as initially implied, but because they pulled roughly $130K in equity out of the house. Very NYTimes-ish.

I would like for someone to interview me, I had a conventional mortgage, I purchased a smaller floor plan in my neighborhood but because I didn't do a Fannie or Freddie backed loan I get no help. Even with my pending divorce I can't qualify for a modification because of my income. So basically to dig my way out of this whole I have to pay thousands because there is no future that indicates housing prices will recover. I did every thing right...except to buy in a majority black area. I guess I should have exposed my kids to my life of being the only...

[cookiemdough]

It is just frustrating because people just flippantly say...oh they bought more than they could afford. Um nope. There are neighborhoods that literally went for a housing value of $800k and then fell to $400k in this county. It is not going to get back to 800. It just isn't. So yes people are walking away in droves. Maybe we should look at the builders that artificially inflated the home values just based in timing of getting into the neighborhood....

[sandsonik]

Jan 25, 2015 23:16:57 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

Jan 25, 2015 23:10:20 GMT -5 @songforyou said:

Yeah, this article is roughly written (not just re this point, but also BirdGirl's point about the Bowie v. Reston comparison).  The author also could have chosen a better feature couple.  I don't think that the couple necessarily bought more home than they could afford, but it's hard to empathize with the assertion that the mortgage payments have increased so drastically when we learn that it's not necessarily because of some predatory ARM as initially implied, but because they pulled roughly $130K in equity out of the house. Very NYTimes-ish.

I would like for someone to interview me, I had a conventional mortgage, I purchased a smaller floor plan in my neighborhood but because I didn't do a Fannie or Freddie backed loan I get no help. Even with my pending divorce I can't qualify for a modification because of my income. So basically to dig my way out of this whole I have to pay thousands because there is no future that indicates housing prices will recover. I did every thing right...except to buy in a majority black area. I guess I should have exposed my kids to my life of being the only...

I feel you.  I purchased pretty much the cheapest house in liveable condition I could find.  My house lost half of its appraised value when things crashed.  The value hasn't come up nearly far enough from that nadir.  That's only ever going to happen again if there's another bubble that sends people to my neighborhood because it's all they haven't been priced out - pretty much how I ended up here. 

I could save so much money if I could take advantage of the lower rates and refinance to a 15 year - but I can't refinance because I'm too far underwater.  I wish the banks could take a more realistic look at it and see a solid payment record, sufficient income and no reason to stop paying now if I haven't already!

[cookiemdough]

Jan 26, 2015 1:24:58 GMT -5 pennypenny said:

Jan 25, 2015 23:04:18 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

So yes, with gentrification of DC many lower socioeconomic families came to some of the southern parts of the county. As a result crime spiked and the reputation for schools got worse. The negatives have been on the decline yet the reputation has remained. I do think there are some black Families who won't move to the county due to school reputation or concerns regarding resale. But for those that are thinking they will stay in the county for the long term and have disposable income to navigate the schools if they don't find them suitable, you can't really beat the type of home you could get for the money. The other problem is that moving to a loudon area severely limits diversity. So African American families have to weigh commute and concerns regarding their child being one of a few in a massive school district. It is just not an easy answer.

I will say the school reputation is not deserved. My son goes to a magnet public school. But before he got into that school I did a lot of research based on fears of the local school. I found that unless you send your child to an elite private school the other private options weren't that great academically. They basically offered a path to good private high schools but the curriculum itself for the lower private schools wasn't that challenging. An involved parent could ensure their kid does well in a public school. It is frustrating because so many families that could really be great in turning around the schools have opted out the system.

Combine that with the lack of commercial businesses coming in, the county is somewhat stifles in growth and now with the bust there is little hope of turning things around for current homeowners.

Well I'm gonna need to talk to you. We are looking to move and we have been frozen with indecision due to the schools. We are actually considering moving into DC.

ETA - oh and we are in the same boat of not being able to refi. Because our loan isn't backed by Fannie or Freddie. Which I used to think was a good thing. Yes we can afford our mortgage, but it is almost impossible to save a DP AND bring the difference to the table. And the only way to get banks to work with you is if you stop making payments. Why do I have to destroy my credit to get some relief?

Most people in this community have just walked away. Which is ruining home values as well. I do know that I get giddy when I see white people around here. I have seen them out running and I'm like damn I won't even do that here. Ha.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using proboards

Spend some time on the school section of DC Urbanmoms website. Trying to navigate the big lottery mess in DC is not easy. If schools are your concern I am not sure if dc provides the peace of mind you might be looking for. We should gtg though anyway because it has been forever

[teflepi]

Jan 25, 2015 23:04:18 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

Jan 25, 2015 22:11:18 GMT -5 @songforyou said:

pennypenny and/or cookiemdough, do you think that PG county also became less attractive to black families somewhere along the line? I always thought what was sustaining the county was the upper middle class black population anyway. It feels like this should have been the exception to the white flight = lower property values rule, but it seems that it wasn't. Why do you guys think that is?

So yes, with gentrification of DC many lower socioeconomic families came to some of the southern parts of the county. As a result crime spiked and the reputation for schools got worse. The negatives have been on the decline yet the reputation has remained. I do think there are some black Families who won't move to the county due to school reputation or concerns regarding resale. But for those that are thinking they will stay in the county for the long term and have disposable income to navigate the schools if they don't find them suitable, you can't really beat the type of home you could get for the money. The other problem is that moving to a loudon area severely limits diversity. So African American families have to weigh commute and concerns regarding their child being one of a few in a massive school district. It is just not an easy answer.

I will say the school reputation is not deserved. My son goes to a magnet public school. But before he got into that school I did a lot of research based on fears of the local school. I found that unless you send your child to an elite private school the other private options weren't that great academically. They basically offered a path to good private high schools but the curriculum itself for the lower private schools wasn't that challenging. An involved parent could ensure their kid does well in a public school. It is frustrating because so many families that could really be great in turning around the schools have opted out the system.

Combine that with the lack of commercial businesses coming in, the county is somewhat stifles in growth and now with the bust there is little hope of turning things around for current homeowners.

I am glad to hear this about the schools.  I have long heard the county was a mess (the revolving door of upper level admins doesn't help, I don't think, in terms of perception), 2nd only to Balt City for quality.  

[josieposy]

I cannot even begin to imagine a 50% loss in value.

[cookiemdough]

Don't get me wrong there are some schools that are not doing their job, but in some of the more affluent areas of the county the local schools are fine but still suffer from private school flight based in reputation of the overall county not the individual school. I will also say that the budgeting problems and scandals plaguing the school system are true. That being said my son's school ran out of paper and parents pulled together to make sure they got what they needed. It is not problem free for sure.

[cookiemdough]

Jan 26, 2015 7:20:33 GMT -5 josieposy said:

I cannot even begin to imagine a 50% loss in value.

Lol believe. It is devastating. So when people talk about not walking a way from a moral standpoint, it doesn't consider that continuing to throw money at something that will likely never recover its value is really not a good financial decision.

[josieposy]

Jan 26, 2015 7:24:16 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

Jan 26, 2015 7:20:33 GMT -5 josieposy said:

I cannot even begin to imagine a 50% loss in value.

Lol believe. It is devastating. So when people talk about not walking a way from a moral standpoint, it doesn't consider that continuing to throw money at something that will likely never recover its value is really not a good financial decision.

Arson doesn't sound like a bad idea either.

[iammalcolmx]

I have NEVER EVER judged people for walking away. This is when I feel terrible for people who are in careers requiring a credit check. H and I both had jobs like that.

[iammalcolmx]

Jan 26, 2015 8:06:15 GMT -5 josieposy said:

Jan 26, 2015 7:24:16 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

Lol believe. It is devastating. So when people talk about not walking a way from a moral standpoint, it doesn't consider that continuing to throw money at something that will likely never recover its value is really not a good financial decision.

Arson doesn't sound like a bad idea either.

I think you are still screwed if it burns down.

[orangeblossom]

Jan 26, 2015 7:21:52 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

Don't get me wrong there are some schools that are not doing their job, but in some of the more affluent areas of the county the local schools are fine but still suffer from private school flight based in reputation of the overall county not the individual school. I will also say that the budgeting problems and scandals plaguing the school system are true. That being said my son's school ran out of paper and parents pulled together to make sure they got what they needed. It is not problem free for sure.

I think the perceived school issue goes hand in hand, with people thinking the county as a whole as bad vs. pockets.

Like anything in life, people/media always want to focus on the bad things and not highlight the good things. The poorer areas tend to have worse schools, but that's the same anywhere, and is not unique to PG.

In reality, do people really think all of these highly-educated black folk are going I stand around and tolerate bad schools. No. Now, does the county the money they should, probably not.

My niece and nephew, and their respective friends, have had great success at their schools, and one is one a full-ride to school, along with several of her friends, so somebody is doing something right.

[scout8]

Jan 25, 2015 16:57:51 GMT -5 mcfelix said:

This is so heartbreaking to read. I work in homebuilding and I've worked for two national builders that have communities in PG county. We had a community open for sale in 2005 and base prices got up to the $800s - 3,000 to 5,000 SF McMansions on 1/3 acre lots. Now those homes sell for about half that. It really is tragic. Public schools in PG county are not highly regarded and even the more affluent sections (upper Marlboro, Mitchellville, parts of Bowie) are thought of as communities for affluent black families. Very few white families buy there and, in my experience, many of the white families that buy they are relocating from another state for military, federal government or contractor jobs. With it's proximity to DC, it really amazes me that the county's reputation hasn't improved.

Also, of our total pool of buyers throughout metro Baltimore and DC, we had the hardest time getting PG county buyers qualified for loans. Many of our buyers were very high income families with great jobs, but often had low credit scores and very little savings. The cancellation rate due to buyers not getting approved for a loan was substantially higher in PG than in any of the other MD or VA counties where we built homes.

My conspiracy theory is that banks have flagged certain zip codes where the underwriters make it harder for buyers to get approved. This is based solely on my anecdotal experience with buyers trying to get loans in a zip code that was hit hard by the real estate downturn.  

[josieposy]

Jan 26, 2015 8:06:58 GMT -5 iammalcolmx said:

Jan 26, 2015 8:06:15 GMT -5 josieposy said:

Arson doesn't sound like a bad idea either.

I think you are still screwed if it burns down.

Well obviously I would make a terrible criminal.

[iammalcolmx]

Jan 26, 2015 8:33:37 GMT -5 josieposy said:

Jan 26, 2015 8:06:58 GMT -5 iammalcolmx said:

I think you are still screwed if it burns down.

Well obviously I would make a terrible criminal.

Isn't it sad that I knew that you are screwed if you burn your house down

[mrshandy]

I don't have any particular experience to add to this. But I did find this article very interesting and sad for those who have done so much right and were screwed over by the housing bubble.

There's a second piece in the WaPost today, didn't get a chance to read it, but will when I get home. (yep I'm old school and prefer the paper version)

Do you think that high-profile corruption cases have further hurt the economy and those people wanting to move there?

We didn't consider MD at all when buying a house since my H's job is in NOVA. We could probably get more for our money there.

[cookiemdough]

Jan 26, 2015 8:51:22 GMT -5 mrshandy said:

I don't have any particular experience to add to this. But I did find this article very interesting and sad for those who have done so much right and were screwed over by the housing bubble.

There's a second piece in the WaPost today, didn't get a chance to read it, but will when I get home. (yep I'm old school and prefer the paper version)

Do you think that high-profile corruption cases have further hurt the economy and those people wanting to move there?

We didn't consider MD at all when buying a house since my H's job is in NOVA. We could probably get more for our money there.

No corruption is everywhere, just look at Bob McDonnell, lol. I think people don't want to live in a majority black county. They will blame schools or corruption but somehow that has not deterred people from flocking to DC that has plenty of corruption and a screwed up school system nor does it keep people from living in parts of Arlington or Alexandria that do not have good schools.

[cookiemdough]

Thanks for the heads up about the second part to the article...of to read.