Post by Booze Raccoon on Jan 27, 2015 9:15:02 GMT -5
I don't know what the answer is but it's okay for you to be mad at God. I think it's heartless for people to tell you that He has a plan. That's a shitty plan.
Do you have any clergy you can talk with? I wish I had a better answer for you.
Post by sunshineluv on Jan 27, 2015 9:18:33 GMT -5
I am so sorry for your loss, and I am sorry that your faith is not a comfort to you right now. One thing I tell myself is that there are a lot of things that I will not understand this side of heaven. I have not experience grief like yours, I will not pretend to relate. My step dad did though, he lost his two daughters in a car crash. His faith wavered a lot in the first year following, he had some really dark moments. Now he is much closer to God than he was during the immediate aftermath, (it was 12 years ago). He does not believe that the accident was part of God's plan, he can't reconcile that with a loving God.
I wish I could remember more of what he has told me, but that's all I can remember right now.
Post by ninjabridemom on Jan 27, 2015 9:20:45 GMT -5
I think God interferes way less than people think.
I don't think it's wrong to be mad at God. I think often people of faith, if they wish to hold onto it after tragedy, go through that, similar to an anger with a parent. And they come with a very different but stronger faith. (note: some people lose their faith and that's okay too!!) I think it's okay to yell at God in your prayers, if you're continuing to pray. I think it's okay to put away your scriptures and focus on what you need to do for now.
ETA And of course I'm so sorry for your loss. I can't imagine.
It's a tough one, and I completely understand being angry. You have every right to be.
"God has a plan" is neither helpful nor, imo, true. If God truly had a plan for every person's life, it would negate the concept of free will, which is one of God's greatest gifts. The unfortunate truth is that shitty, terrible, unspeakable things happen; and it's nobody's fault, and that's maybe worse. I don't think God causes things to happen; life is a sometimes-terrible game of chance. I think God is there to help pick up the pieces once the dust settles, in conferring strength, or offering comfort through church if that's your thing.
I'm probably wording this badly. I'm so terribly sorry for your loss.
I typed and erased and decided that this summed up what I wanted to say perfectly.
Many thoughts, prayers and hugs for you. I'm so sorry you are going through this
Post by underwaterrhymes on Jan 27, 2015 9:29:31 GMT -5
The people who tell you it was part of God's plans are well-meaning assholes, but assholes nonetheless.
Your husband's death was not part of a greater plan and it's okay to be mad at god or to question your faith. It is shitty and sad and so unfair.
Are you in regular (not faith-based) counseling? I think getting close with god again depends largely on the person and on the healing process. Working through your feelings independent of your faith, I think, is really important. When you're ready, you can move toward finding a relationship with church and god again if you want. And it's okay if you don't, too.
The book "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" discusses how god is impotent when it comes to stopping the evil in he world, but is there to provide comfort. I've heard good things about it, although I've not read it myself. Again, I think it's really important to allow yourself to feel grief and anger at god, but it might be something you want to read when you're ready.
Do you have a pastor/priest you could meet with? If they're worth anything, they'll understand your deep anger with God right now and help you move through that without judgement.
I recently read something about God having "A Plan." I don't recall where, though. Basically, it's extremely difficult to accept that sometimes we are not the main character in His plan. Sometimes really awful things happen to great people, and they gain absolutely nothing...but somewhere connected to that awful thing, positive things are happening to someone else. (Someone touched by your husband, reconciled relationships, learning to cherish each moment, growing in Faith, etc.). I saw that recently when I lost a distant friend to a relatively quick disease. In her life, her love of life reached hundreds, in her passing, her love of life, her faith, and her family's loss (she had 2 children) has touched thousands. Does that make her loss "worth it"? I don't think so, but it's what seems to help her husband move through this extremely difficult time.
It's OK to be really angry right now. You lost someone you love dearly, the father of your children. No matter how deep the faith, anyone who can go through what you are and say they're not angry is in denial or lying.
I think LHC worded it very well. It is okay to be angry with God, and to not understand why this awful tragedy happened, and to question a lot of things.
I'm sorry for your loss. Obviously what happened to me is nothing compared to death. And i guess i should be thankful for that. Although oftentimes, i wonder why even. I'm still working on mine. I often wonder what i did to God or this world to receive this suffering. I know i don't talk a lot about the after of my surgery, but it's a mind fuck. You don't know how bad depression can get until your husband catches you down on your knees begging to God to take you home to him.
*This post is in no way intended to take away from your pain or make this about me. Its just how I've been feeling the past 7 months
When my sister got a terminal diagnosis for my niece last year, she struggled with the same thoughts. She read a book by Max Lucado called "You'll Get Through This" and there is a line in the book that says something along the line of "Since when does the high road lead over a cliff?" Basically saying, if a person does all the "right things", is a nice person, serves God, loves his family, why then does that person have to suffer? And it takes it back the first sin in the Garden of Eden. God's love and mercy doesn't mean bad things won't happen, but it does mean that God will be there through those bad times. When you are at your weakest, God will carry you. When you feel alone and afraid, God will never leave you or forsake you.
I highly recommend the book, and recently gifted it to my friend whose son is dying from cancer.
((hugs)) I know there are some dark days ahead, but God does love you and your sweet babies. I'll be praying for you.
I lost my dad in a sudden and horrific car crash 4 years ago. God's plan in my opinion did NOT include that. I honestly think that is one of the ways the evangelical church has become what it is-- that point of view is so self centered and narrow minded. God's plan doesn't include what I'm eating for lunch and his plan for my dad certainly didn't include that wreck.
I reconcile this with my faith by knowing that sin exists; we don't live in a perfect world.
I'm so sorry for what you are going through. I'm so sorry that people are saying careless and hurtful things in the guise of trying to comfort you. I don't have any other words, but I am just so so sorry for you and your kids. I know how hard the shock and suddenness make grieving. Please be kind to yourself and don't expect to feel progress or like you are getting better for at least a year.
I think God interferes way less than people think.
I don't think it's wrong to be mad at God. I think often people of faith, if they wish to hold onto it after tragedy, go through that, similar to an anger with a parent. And they come with a very different but stronger faith. (note: some people lose their faith and that's okay too!!) I think it's okay to yell at God in your prayers, if you're continuing to pray. I think it's okay to put away your scriptures and focus on what you need to do for now.
ETA And of course I'm so sorry for your loss. I can't imagine.
Also I agree with all of this. Be mad at God. He can handle it.
And the people who say that God has a plan? Ignore them. That is unspeakably cold, condescending, and heartless, said by people who are either unable to empathize, and/or have never faced substantial loss and tragedy.
Someone on here once said that God isn't a puppetmaster, and doesn't sit up there pulling strings and pushing buttons, and that exactly captures how I see Him. I don't think he "allows/makes" things happen, which may make things harder when faced with tragedy, because nothing about it is logical. And you are absolutely allowed to be angry with Him. Whatever you're feeling is ok. Even when you're angry at Him, He'll still be there to comfort and love you, and give you strength when you think you have nothing left. Sometimes I think that's one way he shows His love - by accepting and allowing our anger towards Him, and still helping us move forward, even if it's one hour at a time.
I feel like I'm not articulating this well. But please know that you have love and support coming from many places, here included.
Post by ninjabridemom on Jan 27, 2015 9:42:21 GMT -5
I think part of why we're here is to deal with the illogical things. It's heart wrenching, but there's no logical reason for sudden deaths, for suicides, for children dying of cancer -- for people to be so consumed with power that they perpetuate genocides, hoard food from the starving, etc.
I think being at ease with the illogical-ness of these things is a lifelong lesson. How do we heal in love -- how do we help those around us -- how do we fight the oppressions -- etc. And these things don't need just one, theistic faith to do this. I think even faith in people is enough. But I think for the faithful, doing all that is where God fits in. Where you can garner strength. Where you can hail all your anger.
Post by snipsnsnails on Jan 27, 2015 9:42:39 GMT -5
I'm so sorry. I'm sorry he's gone and that so many things are broken. I really am so sorry. There are no good answers to the questions of pain and suffering in this world. And I've spent a good deal of time over the past several years wrestling with them. Wrestling with God Himself, demanding the answers. Thinking I could somehow pin Him and then He would give me the answer to "Why? Why did you do this? Why didn't you stop this?" But, the short answer for me is, it's not to be.
I've been studying Ecclesiastes this past year and think Solomon tells me that bad things are inevitable "under the sun", meaning in this life. Bad things and pain and anguish will come in my life. But our prayer won't be, don't let these things happen, but please, don't let our faith fail when it comes. And that's been my prayer for myself the past year. Please, don't let my faith fail. And sometimes that is as simple as repeating, "I don't feel it in this moment, but I have to believe that a good God exists who loves me."
I choose to believe that God is loving, despite an unloving world. God keep promises when I feel like He is lying to me. And sometimes that means that I believe that He controls things I never understand. Sometimes that means that I am angry beyond belief. Sometimes that means that I am broken and my faith is hanging on by the smallest of threads. But He is close to the brokenhearted. He won't abandon me. He will bring me to a place where there is no more pain or tears someday. I will see my loved ones again, but it will never be soon enough. I will trust Him, because, honestly, sometimes, there's no other plan B for me. These are the ways I hope.
And it's not something that comes naturally to me. And it's not something I am even terrifically good at, but, some days it eases the pain a tiny bit and gives a small amount of hope when I don't have any.
None of this means this is what it has to mean for you. It's my haphazard reconciliation for myself. And not a great one at that. But whatever it does mean for you, even if it means you say that the faith you had before is not the faith you have now, I hope for you and your children. I hope for peace and for your heart to not be drowning in the pain. I'm so sorry.
what LHC said is spot on, if God had a plan then we lose free will. I like to think of God as the loving father who may have a plan for us just like as parents have for our own children. they may or may not follow our plan, but we love them none the less. We are unable to protect our own children from harms way and so is God.
Please allow me to share a story with you. I dear and close friend of mine lost her husband in an auto accident, leaving behind 2 small children (both under the age of 3). This was 30 years ago, and while her daughters never knew their father, all these years later I still see him in their faces and the faces of their children. what an amazing gift and while he wasn't here to personally witness them grow into the beautiful women they are, I KNOW he saw it. I am sure nothing i say today will give you comfort, but time will make it easier and you WILL survive this.
I haven't lost anyone that close to me, so I can't say with any certainty that XYZ would get me through, or that my faith wouldn't waiver in the face of such tragedy, and I am so sorry again for your loss.
I do know that part of faith as a whole is trusting the unknown to God, even when you feel hurt and lost and don't understand what is going on. I also believe that God only ever does good. There is no part of Him that is evil, so He is only capable of good; unfortunately because we live in a fallen sinful world we can't always see the good, and we label things as unfair because our concept of "fair" is warped in comparison to God's because He is perfect and holy and we aren't.
God never promises us perfect, happy lives. He actually calls His believers to suffer in His name. That definitely doesn't seem "fair", but if you believe that God sent His son to die for your sins, then He really owes us nothing and we in fact owe Him everything.
I always find comfort in the Psalms when things are difficult. Especially the Psalms of David. He was favored by God, yet he was a man who struggled with many sins and difficulties in his life, and the Psalms that he wrote are so relate-able because they are so full of raw emotion.
Psalm 62
1 My soul finds rest in God alone; my salvation comes from him. 2 He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken . . .
5 Find rest, O my soul, in God alone; my hope comes from him. 6 He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will not be shaken.7 My salvation and my honor depend on God ; he is my mighty rock, my refuge. 8 Trust in him at all times, O people; pour out your hearts to him, for God is our refuge. Selah
9 Lowborn men are but a breath, the highborn are but a lie; if weighed on a balance, they are nothing; together they are only a breath. 10 Do not trust in extortion or take pride in stolen goods; though your riches increase, do not set your heart on them.
11 One thing God has spoken, two things have I heard: that you, O God, are strong, 12 and that you, O Lord, are loving.
Psalm 77
1 I cried out to God for help; I cried out to God to hear me. 2 When I was in distress, I sought the Lord; at night I stretched out untiring hands and my soul refused to be comforted.
3 I remembered you, O God, and I groaned; I mused, and my spirit grew faint. Selah 4 You kept my eyes from closing; I was too troubled to speak.5 I thought about the former days, the years of long ago; 6 I remembered my songs in the night. My heart mused and my spirit inquired:
7 "Will the Lord reject forever? Will he never show his favor again? 8 Has his unfailing love vanished forever? Has his promise failed for all time? 9 Has God forgotten to be merciful? Has he in anger withheld his compassion?" Selah
10 Then I thought, "To this I will appeal: the years of the right hand of the Most High." 11 I will remember the deeds of the LORD; yes, I will remember your miracles of long ago. 12 I will meditate on all your works and consider all your mighty deeds.
13 Your ways, O God, are holy. What god is so great as our God? 14 You are the God who performs miracles; you display your power among the peoples. 15 With your mighty arm you redeemed your people, the descendants of Jacob and Joseph. Selah
16 The waters saw you, O God, the waters saw you and writhed; the very depths were convulsed. 17 The clouds poured down water, the skies resounded with thunder; your arrows flashed back and forth. 18 Your thunder was heard in the whirlwind, your lightning lit up the world; the earth trembled and quaked. 19 Your path led through the sea, your way through the mighty waters, though your footprints were not seen.
Post by Captain Serious on Jan 27, 2015 9:48:48 GMT -5
I think one of the most difficult challenges most religious people face in their lives are the times when we are so angry at God. In the times I have been there (twice), I got through by literally taking each day as it came and only focusing on the talk in front of me. Not thinking about much else helped me continue on until the pain started to dull a little. Unfortunately, I remember thinking it took longer than it should to start feeling better.
In each instance, my life did get better and things actually improved from where they were before. I can't promise that, and I imagine that it may feel awful for you to hope for that now, but I do wish it for you. I wish for greater happiness in your future than you have already known.
Whatever you are feeling, remember that experiencing all emotions is okay. And I will pay for your solace, peace, healing, and faith as you continue to struggle.
I don't think God has a plan. That is something I came to after my brother died, and I found it more comforting than the thought that he did, because aside from my brother's death, there are terrible things happening to people in the world every day. No one or nothing is controlling or able to influence those things, I believe.
I was angry for a long time following my brother'so death. I'm not anymore, I just miss him terribly. I think it's very natural to want to blame someone or something for this pain you are feeling. It just took time for me to come to my own terms with his death. I'm so sorry, huge hugs to you.
It's a tough one, and I completely understand being angry. You have every right to be.
"God has a plan" is neither helpful nor, imo, true. If God truly had a plan for every person's life, it would negate the concept of free will, which is one of God's greatest gifts. The unfortunate truth is that shitty, terrible, unspeakable things happen; and it's nobody's fault, and that's maybe worse. I don't think God causes things to happen; life is a sometimes-terrible game of chance. I think God is there to help pick up the pieces once the dust settles, in conferring strength, or offering comfort through church if that's your thing.
I'm probably wording this badly. I'm so terribly sorry for your loss.
I'll never be able to word it better than this, I'll ill second Lucy. I think its ok for you to be mad right now. He will still be there for you when you are ready. My heart aches for you, I'm sending you all the good thoughts and vibes possible.
Tomorrow it will be 18 months since my mom was killed and I still hate Him, still ask why, wish that one morning I'll open my eyes and everything will go back to normal. I'm constantly yelling at the world that this shouldn't be my life. I am angry. When people say God has a plan, or she's in a better place it just pisses me off. There's nothing better then being home with the people she loves. Plus, if it was her time, why such a violent, ugly death? Why couldn't she go peacefully? I'm haunted by these questions everyday and I think I will always be. .
One thing that helped me was speaking to a random stranger where my mom died, I was so upset and she just hugged me and told me that it's ok to tell God that I'm angry, that he made a mistake just as long as im talking to Him and don't cut Him off completely. Just a simple thing to think about, but it has helped me. I haven't had it in my heart to go to church yet, one day I will, but I'm not ready. A few weeks ago me, my sister and a really close friend started doing a Bible study (Stuck). It's gotten us talking and asking those really tough questions out loud. It has helped me open my heart again to the idea that God hasn't abandoned us, even though it feels like He had.
Everything in time, I don't have any good advice because I'm working through this too, but whatever you choose: Bible study, reading, journaling, meeting with a church member, just don't close yourself off. I want to renew my faith and I think that's honestly what has helped me navigate this awful journey of losing my mom.
Post by TheSeaward on Jan 27, 2015 10:01:05 GMT -5
when I lost my sister, thankfully no one said to me "this is gods plan" but at her funeral her friend stepped up to speak. this friend had lost a child only a year prior and the words she spoke gave me such a tremendous sense of comfort, I would like to share them.
she talked about what a great mother my sister was and while she loved and would miss my sister, she felt in her heart that God wanted my sister in heaven to watch over all the children who went there before their own mothers. If this mother who had lost a child, the most pain I can imagine, can say these words and truly believe them, who am I to question her thinking God had a plan?
LHC is wise. It's ok to be mad at God, to question things, to look for answers. I hate so much when people say horrible situations are part of God's plan. No, just no. If you need to take a step back from Church, God, your faith, it's ok. Church no longer became the answer for me, I found peace with God when I was outside. Eventually I read The Shack and it helped, somehow it was nice to know I wasn't the only one who was angry at God. I'll also add that there is no set time table for this, take all the time to sort things out that you need. I'm so sorry for your loss.
The comment about "God has a plan" infuriates me as much as "it was his or her time." Maybe people say that because they just don't know what to think or how to feel when something so tragic happens, but regardless, it is absolutely the wrong thing to say or believe.
As PP have mentioned, no truly loving God would ever "plan" to have tragedies befall us and I agree it totally negates the free will He gave us when He created us.
I equate it to caring for one's child - if he or she was hurt while in your care, maybe they take a spill off a slide, does that mean you let it happen? I don't think so.
I think the truth is that God doesn't allow bad things to happen, it's that He'll be there for us when they do.
That said, when I lost my brother (he was 24) to a car accident, I was angry for a very long time with God, thinking how could he take him from us, from his three-year-old son, but after a lot of soul-searching and struggling and praying, I realized it wasn't God's fault and that I was able to get through the pain (not the pain will completely go away, there will always be a hole in my heart) because of God's presence in my life.
I'm sorry your life has been flipped upside down. I can't even begin to imagine the depth of your loss. It is natural, and even healthy, IMO, to feel anger, frustration, and to struggle in your relationship with God at times like this.
I've found the most comfort when everything seems to be going wrong, to actively look for God's presence in the midst of it all. I don't think any of us can answer the "why", when tragedy strikes. But we do have the ability to see where light is shining through the darkness. Because there always seems to be a small amount of it breaking through. Often times a new level of love is generated in response, and that's something you can grasp onto to help you get through today, tomorrow, or even just the next 5 minutes. When we're grieving, time seems to stand still a bit. Subsequently, love can often feel more intense than ever. So real and intense that it hurts, and we can feel tugging on our hearts.
For me, I know it's not always an easy walk through faith. But I do believe that it may be more difficult if I were to lose that faith.
Just know that you're surrounded by so much love, even if you're feeling alone, angry, and stranded in the moment.
I am so sorry. And be mad. It's ok and frankly, healthy.
I was furious with God for a long time after my mom died. It changed my faith. I used to be more evangelical "God has a plan and it's always for good" rah rah.
Now, my faith is quieter, if you will. I respect God. I still believe in him/her/it, but I don't view them as a benevolent master of all details. I think of it more in terms of a master architect. He designed it and checks in and cares, but is not watching over every little detail. This also makes me believe a bit more in a good afterlife, because I like to believe that's where he invests his time on the details. I worship in an episcopal church on Sundays. I pray when I remember. I try to be a good, kind person. I have less guilt over the relationship now and I think that's healthier.
You have suffered a great loss and I'm sorry that you are struggling.
For me, I feel closer to God during the dark times. I don't look to Him for answers, but for comfort. I am thankful when things go well, and sad when they don't, but I know life is full of pain and believe God is there to comfort us during the dark times, not to protect us from ever experiencing pain.