Prudie: my 10 year old hates church

[heyjude]

Dear Prudence,
Two years ago when my son was 10 he became very verbal about hating church and resisted going. My older son loves the teen group at Sunday school and assured his brother that when he made it out of the baby area, he, too, would love it. Well, he does not. Each Sunday morning he yells, pouts, and eventually succumbs to my threats. Then he takes his snarky and unhelpful attitude to Sunday school. He doesn’t believe in God, and his very cool Sunday teacher works with that. I hated my boring church as a kid, and looking back I wonder, had I not gone to church would I have been a worse person? My husband was forced to attend his church when he was little. Now, he sleeps late Sunday morning, then hikes and does other activities. He is supportive of the fact that both our sons’ spiritual development is important to me. Do I force my son to go or give up?


—Mad as Hell Mom

Dear Mad,
There are some people who believe that one’s degree of religious belief has a large genetic component. That means in societies in which everyone appears to be pious, many are secretly saying to themselves, “This is a crock.” Let’s say this genetic theory is true. That means you may have passed your blue eyes and devotion to your elder son, and your husband may have passed his brown eyes and lack of belief to your younger. You and your older son find spiritual and intellectual sustenance in the church, but your younger son finds the whole thing intolerable. You’ve been fighting this losing battle for two years, and if you keep going, your son will flee all observance as soon as he is able. I think you need to walk a more tolerant path. Tell your little atheist that you’ve been thinking about what he’s been saying about church, you’re tired of dragging him to Sunday school, and you’re reconsidering your stand. But before you do, you have a requirement he needs to fulfill. You want him to write an essay (minimum two typed pages) about the progression of his (dis)beliefs, and he must cite examples of people who have struggled with lack of faith—Biblical sources get extra credit. Then, if he takes this assignment seriously, release him. But say this doesn’t mean he gets to watch TV or play video games while his brother is getting religious instruction. Have your husband agree that Sunday will be bonding time for the two skeptics. Maybe when they hike to the top of a mountain one day, your son will look around and feel a spiritual awakening.

—Prudie

[2curlydogs]

Well, I don't know about a 2 page typed essay, but I think Prudie nailed this one.

[Deleted]

Ugh, this letter.

First off, take your kid to church because you believe in the sense of community or whatever, not because you think it will make him a better person. That's just hella lame.

Secondly, making the kid write a letter? Why? Is mom writing an essay on why she makes him go to church? Please. You already know he doesn't believe. You've accepted it. His Sunday School teacher has accepted it. So let his little ass stay at home.

Though I'd make him come for family events, like the Easter egg hunt and the Christmas eve service.

[heyjude]

Feb 26, 2015 14:12:16 GMT -5 2curlydogs said:

Well, I don't know about a 2 page typed essay, but I think Prudie nailed this one.

I think she's half right.

An essay to prove you really mean it? Citing the bible?

And a prohibition on playing games during church?

The kid is going to interpret this as being punished for not going to church.

[Deleted]

I also have to admit that I'd want to sit down with him and find out if it really is that he doesn't believe in God at all or just *this* version. I'd also want him to read up on other faiths, not just the Judeo-Christian ones and see if anything rings his bell. Maybe that's what he can do when he's home on Sunday mornings.

Because it's not my job to force my kid to believe in anything. It's my job to help him solidify good logic and reasoning skills and find things that make him content in life. If no kind of church or faith is that, great but I think 12 is a little young to reject it all because you're not feeling this one.

[msmerymac]

I really want to hear more about this kid's hatred of church. I know people grumble about it, but viscerally hating it? Crying about going? It makes me think something happened there.

[Deleted]

No essay, just an open, calm conversation giving him the space to talk about what he'd prefer to do with that time, making sure DH is on board if the kid wants to go hiking with him or whatever. I think for most kids, age 12 is old enough to encourage them to talking about their preferences on beliefs and making certain decisions on your own. I'm sort of side- eyeing the mom a bit for taking 2 whole years to wonder if she should start taking her son's opinion seriously. 

[heyjude]

Yeah. Maybe the mom should be the one writing the essay on why she believes.

I don't know. Prudie's response bothered me. This idea that non believers have to prove or explain their nonbelief is very antiquated. As if they don't really really mean it. :/

[Deleted]

Feb 26, 2015 14:17:37 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

I really want to hear more about this kid's hatred of church. I know people grumble about it, but viscerally hating it? Crying about going? It makes me think something happened there.

Agreed. That is weird behavior for an 8 - 10 year old. Short of some bullshit, you don't generally see such a fight against going until about 12 -14.

[Deleted]

Feb 26, 2015 14:18:25 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Yeah. Maybe the mom should be the one writing the essay on why she believes.

I don't know. Prudie's response bothered me. This idea that non believers have to prove or explain their nonbelief is very antiquated. As if they don't really really mean it. :/

How does two years of expressing you don't believe not convey that you mean it? That's why I don't like the essay portion.

It's lame.

And she's obviously not accepted that he doesn't believe.

But I'm with @tooshort in that I think he's too young to opt out of what's a family activity. I'm also not faced with the prospect of dragging a 10 year old out of bed every Sunday. So far, when my kids have balked at going, it's just been a bid to sleep in longer.

[heyjude]

Feb 26, 2015 14:25:17 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

Feb 26, 2015 14:18:25 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Yeah. Maybe the mom should be the one writing the essay on why she believes.

I don't know. Prudie's response bothered me. This idea that non believers have to prove or explain their nonbelief is very antiquated. As if they don't really really mean it. :/

How does two years of expressing you don't believe not convey that you mean it? That's why I don't like the essay portion.

It's lame.

And she's obviously not accepted that he doesn't believe.

But I'm with @tooshort in that I think he's too young to opt out of what's a family activity. I'm also not faced with the prospect of dragging a 10 year old out of bed every Sunday. So far, when my kids have balked at going, it's just been a bid to sleep in longer.

The dad has already opted out.

[Deleted]

Feb 26, 2015 14:18:06 GMT -5 @historychick79 said:

No essay, just an open, calm conversation giving him the space to talk about what he'd prefer to do with that time, making sure DH is on board if the kid wants to go hiking with him or whatever. I think for most kids, age 12 is old enough to encourage them to talking about their preferences on beliefs and making certain decisions on your own. I'm sort of side- eyeing the mom a bit for taking 2 whole years to wonder if she should start taking her son's opinion seriously. 

I would love to see my H's face if I announced that since our son no longer wanted to attend church, he needed to take spiritual time hiking with him while I was off singing hymns.

They're more likely to take spiritual time shooting zombies or exploring Skyrim.

[2curlydogs]

Feb 26, 2015 14:15:14 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Feb 26, 2015 14:12:16 GMT -5 2curlydogs said:

Well, I don't know about a 2 page typed essay, but I think Prudie nailed this one.

I think she's half right.

An essay to prove you really mean it? Citing the bible?

And a prohibition on playing games during church?

The kid is going to interpret this as being punished for not going to church.

Meh. I don't see how making "church time" father-son bonding time instead is being punished.

And, quite frankly, even if kid does think that way at first, well, too bad.

You could flip it around and say that the other son who does enjoy going to church could view the situation as HIM being punished if his brother gets extra "game time" just because he put up a fuss about church and won. (ETA: I am not saying this is what is happening here. I am just pointing out one possible interpretation from a 15 year old boy)

Nope. I am down with saying "Ok, fine. You don't have to go to church. But then you and your dad get to spend Quality Time together instead."

I am already dealing with this "But S GOT TO DO X, Y OR Z" nonsense and my kids are 4 and 1 (S generally just points and yells angrily, but that's the general sentiment behind the noise). I am dreading 15 and 12. 

[Deleted]

Feb 26, 2015 14:27:07 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Feb 26, 2015 14:25:17 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

How does two years of expressing you don't believe not convey that you mean it? That's why I don't like the essay portion.

It's lame.

And she's obviously not accepted that he doesn't believe.

But I'm with @tooshort in that I think he's too young to opt out of what's a family activity. I'm also not faced with the prospect of dragging a 10 year old out of bed every Sunday. So far, when my kids have balked at going, it's just been a bid to sleep in longer.

The dad has already opted out.

And?

My husband doesn't attend church with us. I still consider it part of our family time. Just like it's still family time when I take one kid to huddle house.

[meshaliuknits]

Feb 26, 2015 14:27:20 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

Feb 26, 2015 14:18:06 GMT -5 @historychick79 said:

No essay, just an open, calm conversation giving him the space to talk about what he'd prefer to do with that time, making sure DH is on board if the kid wants to go hiking with him or whatever. I think for most kids, age 12 is old enough to encourage them to talking about their preferences on beliefs and making certain decisions on your own. I'm sort of side- eyeing the mom a bit for taking 2 whole years to wonder if she should start taking her son's opinion seriously. 

I would love to see my H's face if I announced that since our son no longer wanted to attend church, he needed to take spiritual time hiking with him while I was off singing hymns.

They're more likely to take spiritual time shooting zombies or exploring Skyrim.

I would like to attend this church.

Sent from my EVO

[Deleted]

If Dad already had some thing he was doing on Sunday morning that the kid could do instead, that's great. Go do that. But idk, it's just some weird thing to me to look at one's husband and say, look, you need to find something for you and the kid to do together.

But I don't even want to hear about fairness. Because that's irrelevant here. At some point, the other kid is going to whine that the budding atheist gets to have extra dad time and he doesn't. Kids always find some way to drag in the unfairness of it all. So I'm not playing into that.

I'm talking about adding something meaningful to the kid's life. But honestly, I kind of balk at that notion. You're either raising a good kid or you aren't. What meaning needs to be found at 9:30 on a Sunday morning? By all means, find something that enriches your child's life if church attendance does not. But don't make the mistake of believing it means more because it's on a Sunday morning.

Find some other activity for him, not necessarily on a Sunday and leave what dad does or doesn't do out of it.

[FloFTW]

Feb 26, 2015 14:18:25 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Yeah. Maybe the mom should be the one writing the essay on why she believes.

I don't know. Prudie's response bothered me. This idea that non believers have to prove or explain their nonbelief is very antiquated. As if they don't really really mean it. :/

Yes, this is bothered me too. It does read as a punishment, as others have said. No, really...for two years you've forced me to do something that you know I don't agree with. Why do I need to write an essay? I was serious in every conversation we've already had on the subject.

[cattledogkisses]

I hated church around that age too, because I was too old to go downstairs and do fun stuff with the littles, and sermons were not terribly interesting to me. And those 18th century New England church pews were not made for comfort. The best Sundays were when I was allowed to sit with my BFF and we would play MASH until the adults quietly scolded us for not paying attention.

Memories.

[Deleted]

Feb 26, 2015 14:43:45 GMT -5 @soudesafinado said:

Um. Why can't this child stay home with dad? Let him find his own way to Jesus if he's meant to. Sweet mother of pearl people make life too hard for no good reason.

Maybe he's looking for nirvana, Sou. YOU DON'T KNOW!!!

Ten was about the age I started going to other people's churches and asking/reading about different faiths. It's odd to me that she hasn't mentioned any of that in her letter.

[2curlydogs]

Feb 26, 2015 14:35:53 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

If Dad already had some thing he was doing on Sunday morning that the kid could do instead, that's great. Go do that. But idk, it's just some weird thing to me to look at one's husband and say, look, you need to find something for you and the kid to do together.

That is what's going on here. Dad sleeps in and then goes hiking and shit. I don't see anything wrong with telling Junior "Ok, no church. So you hang with your dad then. Just no Aliens vs. Zombies for 3 hours."

[penguingrrl]

I'm really bothered by the letter/essay part of this answer. Why should he have to qualify lack of belief?

I was dragged to church weekly as a kid. I went, didn't put up a huge fight, but never believed. If we went to church and one of my kids expressed that they didn't believe and no longer wanted to go that would be the end of it for them. I would offer books on comparative religion and they would be welcome to read them if they're interested, but I don't believe in forced spirituality.

[Deleted]

Feb 26, 2015 14:46:55 GMT -5 2curlydogs said:

Feb 26, 2015 14:35:53 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

If Dad already had some thing he was doing on Sunday morning that the kid could do instead, that's great. Go do that. But idk, it's just some weird thing to me to look at one's husband and say, look, you need to find something for you and the kid to do together.

That is what's going on here. Dad sleeps in and then goes hiking and shit. I don't see anything wrong with telling Junior "Ok, no church. So you hang with your dad then. Just no Aliens vs. Zombies for 3 hours."

Do we even know that he wants to take his kid hiking? Or that hiking is what this kid is interested in doing? And why can't he play Plants vs Zombies until dad wakes up?

I honestly don't know why I'm feeling some kind of seemingly contradictory way here but I am.

[cattledogkisses]

Feb 26, 2015 14:46:55 GMT -5 2curlydogs said:

Feb 26, 2015 14:35:53 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

If Dad already had some thing he was doing on Sunday morning that the kid could do instead, that's great. Go do that. But idk, it's just some weird thing to me to look at one's husband and say, look, you need to find something for you and the kid to do together.

That is what's going on here. Dad sleeps in and then goes hiking and shit. I don't see anything wrong with telling Junior "Ok, no church. So you hang with your dad then. Just no Aliens vs. Zombies for 3 hours."

Yeah, this sounds like a great opportunity for some father-son bonding time to me.

[Deleted]

I guess the thing for me is that church brings meaning to your life IF you believe. If you don't believe, then going is the equivalent of playing Plants vs Zombies for three hours.

I don't agree with the premise that his life MUST be enriched at that time of the week regardless of what's going on in anyone else's life or that hiking with dad is magically going to replace what mom thinks he's getting at church.

[Deleted]

Feb 26, 2015 14:56:41 GMT -5 @soudesafinado said:

I don't even care what he does for that time but he would not be getting me all worked up and irritated every Sunday when I have my good clothes, shoes and Ashro hat on, when it's not necessary. Stay yo' heathen ass home then, I'm going to get the fruit of the spirit and will pray for your devilish soul while I"m there. LOL

Black church: Where every Sunday is the Kentucky Derby

[meshaliuknits]

Feb 26, 2015 14:59:03 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

Feb 26, 2015 14:56:41 GMT -5 @soudesafinado said:

I don't even care what he does for that time but he would not be getting me all worked up and irritated every Sunday when I have my good clothes, shoes and Ashro hat on, when it's not necessary. Stay yo' heathen ass home then, I'm going to get the fruit of the spirit and will pray for your devilish soul while I"m there. LOL

Black church: Where every Sunday is the Kentucky Derby

I'm sooo wearing one of these to my childrens graduations & weddings. I cannot wait.

Sent from my EVO

[cattledogkisses]

I wish we were hat-wearing folk here. Every year I think about wearing a fascinator for Easter and always chicken out.

[meshaliuknits]

Feb 26, 2015 15:04:52 GMT -5 cattledogkisses said:

I wish we were hat-wearing folk here. Every year I think about wearing a fascinator for Easter and always chicken out.

This year is your year. I'll wear one with you!

Note: I will be wearing it to Safeway.

Sent from my EVO

[EloiseWeenie]

My kids love Sunday School, but don't love sitting through church (they like singing and reading the prayers, but not the sermon). I don't expect them to pay attention to sermon, or even glean anything from it (but my kids are young).

[cattledogkisses]

Feb 26, 2015 15:08:22 GMT -5 meshaliuknits said:

Feb 26, 2015 15:04:52 GMT -5 cattledogkisses said:

I wish we were hat-wearing folk here. Every year I think about wearing a fascinator for Easter and always chicken out.

This year is your year. I'll wear one with you!

Note: I will be wearing it to Safeway.

Sent from my EVO

Lol!  If you can dress me, including fascinator, for Easter Sunday, keeping in mind that there will probably still be 6 feet of snow on the ground here, then I will consider it!