I have a strong-willed four year old. Or high-spirited, whatever the phrase is we're supposed to be using for kiddos these days. Most of the time she's a good kid.
On Sunday, she grabbed a toy out of her twin's hand, and when her sister wanted it back she chucked it across the lawn. Not a huge deal, that kind of stuff happens 20 times a day. If they don't make good on it right away (returning the toy and apologizing), they get a time out. Well, she refused the time out. (This is out of character.) When I went to get her to take her hand and lead her to time out, she started running away from me in the backyard. I have zero tolerance for flat-out disobedience like that. I stood still and finally got her to come to me, and I picked her up to carry her to her room to have a time out.
Once there, she immediately tried to run out of the room. So I put her back and sat on the bed with her. She continued to try to jump off the bed past me. I continued to put her back. The first time she did it, I told her she lost iPad time for a week. She worked her way all the way up to two months without iPad in a matter of minutes, and I realized this tactic wasn't working. So, she started losing weeks of allowance. She got to a month without allowance before she finally calmed down and apologized.
So, the end result is two months without iPad time, which blows. We use it as a privilege, and they love doing learning apps as well as the fun stuff. This is going to make it rough on my H, because he's a SAHD and uses that time to cook dinner, etc. I feel like he's getting punished for something that went down between M and me. But I'm also the type of person that doesn't go back on punishments, because then they don't work anymore.
Would it totally undermine the punishment to allow her to earn iPad time back through good behavior? Or is that a ridiculous thought? I'm thinking truly outstanding displays of good behavior, or listening, or following instructions...that kind of thing.
Thoughts?
P.S. If it matters, we're going through a really hard time right now. My dad is in hospice care, and doesn't have much time left. So that's affecting everyone, her included.
I think allowing her to earn it back is fine. I would do it for specific actions rather than just "good behavior". "Oh you shared so nicely just now with your sis, you earned your iPad time back today!". "Oh thank you for apologizing the first time I asked, you earned your iPad time back today!"
I also am betting that she is feeling the underlying tension with your dad's situation. I bet this is influencing at least some of her behavior.
We talk with our stubborn three year old often about making good choices. I ask her often throughout the day "Is this a good choice you are making?" which causes her to think for a second. It works well for her for right now. We have a lot of conversations about how much fun and easy life is when you make good choices. We talk about what good choices look like (listening, sharing, etc). This seems to be helping us.
She's four. I know it was ridiculous to keep adding time to the punishment, but I can't find this kid's "currency". So she catches me off guard when she does something like this (this happens maybe every three or four months?), and the iPad thing just popped out. The only thing she loves more than life itself is her baby doll, but it's her comfort item and I refuse to take it away.
We talk about good choices all the time, but I literally cannot find a punishment that actually works on her. I'm open to other ideas.
As far as her sense of time, she draws calendars for fun, and has one hanging in her room and likes to mark off the days. She's pretty good with that.
I think you way overreacted. I have a similar 4 year old. With her, once she gets in her crazy disobedience mode, threats don't work anymore. No TV? "I DON'T NEED TV ANYWAY!" No ipad? "I HATE THE IPAD I DON'T CARE!" Take toys away? "I HATE ALL MY TOYS, YOU CAN PUT THEM ALL IN THE GARBAGE!".
So I just remove myself until she is calmer and in better moods, and THEN i tell her what her consequence is. So I'll lock her in her room until she calms down. If she wrecks the room, then her consequence is having to clean it (but I will help, because she is 4). If not, it will be something like no TV and ipad for the rest of the day. Like jehc said, they have no concept of time, so one day is plenty.
If I overreact and give a too big consequence, I either say "Mommy thought about it and two months makes no sense, I was a bit frustrated when I said that. I think two days is reasonable.". Or I let her earn it back. It depends on my mood and hers.
I think you need to let go of the disobedience thing. Like if she disobeys just put her on timeout. Who cares if she willingly goes. I've rarely heard of a kid willingly going to time out. Just Make her stay there how ever many minutes and then punishment is over.
Post by ninjabridemom on Mar 3, 2015 11:13:19 GMT -5
So thoughts in no order (feel free to disregard, of course):
1) I think negotiating consistently like that probably isn't effective. She's testing you -- how far will she go? For one of my boys he does that and then when he sees I'm serious (yes, I really will take that toy away if you hit your brother with it) he gets all "what the fuck mom?!" and serious about behaving better (the other one, it would work better, y'know). I'd do something more tangible, like increasing her TO, taking away a toy, or something like that.
2) I wouldn't sit with her in TO at this age. I'd do the supernanny turn around, put her back, restart the timer thing.
3) I've found once they're worked up, working on it outside of punishment and more in terms of anger management works best. They can think more clearly and the punishment side of it (for the disobedience and throwing etc) works better. So I don't say anything about punishment, I put them in TO to calm down, and books work for my kids. I don't know what would work best for her. I think especially since she's feeling off b/c of your dad.
4) I think reframing your thought-process (which omg I have to do in situations like this too, we went through it when their teacher was out for weeks unexpectedly) to "how can I help her process this" instead of reactionary, dealing w the disobedience at a time thinking, will help both of you. For the boys, with this small thing, it was making get better cards for her and talking a lot about her and how they were feeling. I imagine it's heavier at this age and with this much bigger thing, so I don't have suggestions, just total sympathy for you all
I think you need to let go of the disobedience thing. Like if she disobeys just put her on timeout. Who cares if she willingly goes. I've rarely heard of a kid willingly going to time out. Just Make her stay there how ever many minutes and then punishment is over.
This is the whole point. She wasn't staying in time out. She was literally leaping off the bed and trying to run out of the room.
It sounds like I should have just stood in the hallway and held the doorknob until she calmed down.
My four year old knows nothing in regards to time. I ask him which is longer, a minute or a year and he has no clue. I would keep the iPad away for a day or two and then tell her she earned it back with good behavior. To me, that is not "going back on punishment" because she probably doesn't understand what you said anyway.
When my kid is defiant, I find it works best for me to be totally stoic, like I don't give two shits. Arguing does work and he is basically unable to communicate effectively when pissed. If he would have kept jumping off his bed like your daughter did, I would have left the room and held the door shut until he was calm. No talking, arguing, etc.
Four year olds are hard. It's wonderful that she is a good kid most of the time. Kudos to you for doing a good job with twins. If I had two four year olds I would need much, much more wine.
Don't feel like you need to mete out punishments right away. It's fine to say something like "I am so sad that you are making these choices. Your dad and I will have to determine what the consequence will be. We will tell you after we have talked and you have calmed down." and then just leave the room.
This is clearly what I should have done. She caught me off guard, and I handled it terribly. I get that.
My question is, how do I fix it now?
I like the suggestion of going back and telling her I made a mistake, and that the punishment didn't fit the crime, so to speak.
If you are consistent 99% of the time, that 1% that you're not consistent is not going to ruin your child. I'm extremely consistent in my punishments. If I say something is going to happen, it happens...except when I've made a mistake.
You overreacted and you know it. Your punishment hurts you and your H more than is necessary. In my opinion, it's OK (and actually good!) for your child to know that you made a mistake when choosing her punishment THIS TIME. You can say after you calmed down that you realized you didn't make a good decision either and that instead of losing iPad time, the punishment is XYZ. Parents make mistakes, too. IMO, this is an excellent learning opportunity for her to learn how to admit to mistakes and make them right. This has to be used VERY sparingly or it loses all effect.
I'm sorry to hear about your dad. Be kind to yourself and show yourself some grace. This is a very stressful time for everyone in your family. Do what you need to do to make it through this time and worry about the rest later. She's likely acting out a little more right now because she's sad and scared. Try to increase affection and attention as much as you can, highlight the positive, and go back to laying down the law when things are a little more LESS stressful.
ETA: Sorry, don't wait until it's MORE stressful, wait until it's LESS stressful!
I think you need to let go of the disobedience thing. Like if she disobeys just put her on timeout. Who cares if she willingly goes. I've rarely heard of a kid willingly going to time out. Just Make her stay there how ever many minutes and then punishment is over.
This is the whole point. She wasn't staying in time out. She was literally leaping off the bed and trying to run out of the room.
It sounds like I should have just stood in the hallway and held the doorknob until she calmed down.
I think you need to let go of the disobedience thing. Like if she disobeys just put her on timeout. Who cares if she willingly goes. I've rarely heard of a kid willingly going to time out. Just Make her stay there how ever many minutes and then punishment is over.
This is the whole point. She wasn't staying in time out. She was literally leaping off the bed and trying to run out of the room.
It sounds like I should have just stood in the hallway and held the doorknob until she calmed down.
I have a 4 year old like this, too, sometimes. And he's strong enough that even physically trying to force him to stay in a particular place would end up in one or both of us getting hurt. I also struggle with figuring out his currency. It changes frequently. Sometimes he will move heaven and earth for one thing...and the next day, he will literally say, "That's OK, Mom. You can take away XYZ, I don't care." or he'll happily bounce up the stairs to his room (no toys in his room) for time out. Other days, I've had to do like you mentioned and stand outside the door and hold the handle. It's a miracle he hasn't broken his door yet!
4) I think reframing your thought-process (which omg I have to do in situations like this too, we went through it when their teacher was out for weeks unexpectedly) to "how can I help her process this" instead of reactionary, dealing w the disobedience at a time thinking, will help both of you. For the boys, with this small thing, it was making get better cards for her and talking a lot about her and how they were feeling. I imagine it's heavier at this age and with this much bigger thing, so I don't have suggestions, just total sympathy for you all
We're reading books about loss, and talking about it, and trying to be super sympathetic to their extra sensitivity to issues and emotional behavior right now.
Honestly, I had just gotten back from making pre-funeral arrangements for my dad, and I was just raw. It was bad timing all around, and I screwed up, and I just needed to know how to fix it.
I've gotten a lot of great advice in here, and I appreciate it.
Post by mrsukyankee on Mar 3, 2015 11:42:36 GMT -5
In Positive Discipline we make timeout a place to recover from bad feelings and not a punishment. The kids are asked to make a lovely place where they can sit and get over bad feelings - some will have dolls, other toys, blankies, etc. It's a place they will want to go. We talk to the kids about how sometimes we lose our temper or get very sad and this place is where we go to feel better. Even mommy's and daddy's take positive time outs (talk about to your child about how sometimes you need to calm down when angry so you may go to the bathroom or just pick up a book and read to calm down). If you can ask her if she wants to go to her safe place before things escalate then it can work. Obviously this doesn't work every time, but it's a good way for kids to learn to self-regulate. My clients try to get the kids to go there when they have minor issues first and then build up to the big ones. And the time out place has to be VERY, VERY nice and a place the kids get to make themselves.
Post by mrsukyankee on Mar 3, 2015 11:43:10 GMT -5
p.s. do be kind to yourself and don't be afraid to admit to making mistakes - that's how kids learn that mistakes are a way to learn and aren't a horrible thing to make.
I would've found a different path before it hit 2 months. I do think it's fine to 'catch her being good' and get back time. "you shared that toy with your sister so nicely you can have iPad time today' and the like not necessarily earning it back but getting it as a reward when she is making good choices.
4) I think reframing your thought-process (which omg I have to do in situations like this too, we went through it when their teacher was out for weeks unexpectedly) to "how can I help her process this" instead of reactionary, dealing w the disobedience at a time thinking, will help both of you. For the boys, with this small thing, it was making get better cards for her and talking a lot about her and how they were feeling. I imagine it's heavier at this age and with this much bigger thing, so I don't have suggestions, just total sympathy for you all
We're reading books about loss, and talking about it, and trying to be super sympathetic to their extra sensitivity to issues and emotional behavior right now.
Honestly, I had just gotten back from making pre-funeral arrangements for my dad, and I was just raw. It was bad timing all around, and I screwed up, and I just needed to know how to fix it.
I've gotten a lot of great advice in here, and I appreciate it.
I think, at this point, with everything you are going through and having just come home from making those arrangements, you go give her a big hug and tell her you expect her to listen and not be disobedient. Ask her what she thinks she should have done instead of running away. And then tell her that the time out from the ipad is over tonight. And then hug each other some more.
I think you way overreacted. I have a similar 4 year old. With her, once she gets in her crazy disobedience mode, threats don't work anymore. No TV? "I DON'T NEED TV ANYWAY!" No ipad? "I HATE THE IPAD I DON'T CARE!" Take toys away? "I HATE ALL MY TOYS, YOU CAN PUT THEM ALL IN THE GARBAGE!".
So I just remove myself until she is calmer and in better moods, and THEN i tell her what her consequence is. So I'll lock her in her room until she calms down. If she wrecks the room, then her consequence is having to clean it (but I will help, because she is 4). If not, it will be something like no TV and ipad for the rest of the day. Like jehc said, they have no concept of time, so one day is plenty.
If I overreact and give a too big consequence, I either say "Mommy thought about it and two months makes no sense, I was a bit frustrated when I said that. I think two days is reasonable.". Or I let her earn it back. It depends on my mood and hers.
Shit! This is what my 3.5 yr old is like...you mean it doesn't get better at 4?!
She is 4.5 and no bueno, lol. But she will act good on her own decision. You just can't MAKE her.
I learned by the time I got my third grown that it only hurts ME when I gave a punishment while mad. I would take away something that I should not have, or said they couldn't do something/go somewhere that would have been good for them. I started trying to at the minimum count to 100, but preferred to wait even longer to give them their punishment.
I tried to stick with it though, so they would believe it the next time. I did however sometimes let them earn things back. Especially with my middle child that worked. She was SO headstrong! But sometimes that actually worked better with her than anything, if she really wanted something she would try harder to earn it back,
In Positive Discipline we make timeout a place to recover from bad feelings and not a punishment. The kids are asked to make a lovely place where they can sit and get over bad feelings - some will have dolls, other toys, blankies, etc. It's a place they will want to go. We talk to the kids about how sometimes we lose our temper or get very sad and this place is where we go to feel better. Even mommy's and daddy's take positive time outs (talk about to your child about how sometimes you need to calm down when angry so you may go to the bathroom or just pick up a book and read to calm down). If you can ask her if she wants to go to her safe place before things escalate then it can work. Obviously this doesn't work every time, but it's a good way for kids to learn to self-regulate. My clients try to get the kids to go there when they have minor issues first and then build up to the big ones. And the time out place has to be VERY, VERY nice and a place the kids get to make themselves.
So much this. Give her a place to go. It can have toys, it can have art stuff anything. What you want to teach her is how to calm herself so the same thing doesn't happen again.
Think of how you would feel if your boss yelled at you/you feel as if you are in trouble. You get anxious and sometimes feel like you can't think. This is because the fight or flight response kicks in. That is why your daughter was fighting and running away. It is biological. When that part of the brain is activated the "thinking parts" kind of shut down and the "survival mode" kicks in.
This is why nothing works with her when she is upset. Give her a place to go and teach her to self regulate. Let her go to this place when you see her getting worked up. My son goes to his little spot and colors. He usually calms down quickly, and he is using a good coping mechanism to release frustration.
Once she is calm then you can discuss how she can solve whatever problem she created. The issue isn't the behavior as much as the self regulation. Also it helps if you view the self regulation as a skill to work on instead of something that needs to be "punished". Once she is calm have her work to solve the issue.
I just want to give you a big huge hug floridakat.
I'm so sorry about your dad. Preschoolers are trying enough without that stress added in. Cut yourself some slack.
I've been trying really hard with my just shy of 3 year old twins to not get to the I'm going to lose my shit stage. Some things that have helped are:
-just stop talking. "I'm going to count to three. If you aren't here when I get to three, you are going in your ro until you are ready to cooperate." Done. If she comes. Awesome. If not, pick her up and put her in her room for 4 minutes. I've been finding that if they think they are making the choice (when YOU are ready to xyz) instead of me saying you will xyz right now, it has a better outcome.
- my boys do the taking and then throwing a toy in a spot their brother can't reach thing too. Usually it ends up with the thrower losing the privilege of playing with that toy
- we use a timer for stuff like popular toys. Three minutes each and then the other gets a turn. It works pretty well and the times it doesn't we end up either removing the toy or holding the kid who isn't cooperating with the turns.
I just want to give you a big huge hug floridakat.
I'm so sorry about your dad. Preschoolers are trying enough without that stress added in. Cut yourself some slack.
I've been trying really hard with my just shy of 3 year old twins to not get to the I'm going to lose my shit stage. Some things that have helped are:
-just stop talking. "I'm going to count to three. If you aren't here when I get to three, you are going in your ro until you are ready to cooperate." Done. If she comes. Awesome. If not, pick her up and put her in her room for 4 minutes. I've been finding that if they think they are making the choice (when YOU are ready to xyz) instead of me saying you will xyz right now, it has a better outcome.
- my boys do the taking and then throwing a toy in a spot their brother can't reach thing too. Usually it ends up with the thrower losing the privilege of playing with that toy
- we use a timer for stuff like popular toys. Three minutes each and then the other gets a turn. It works pretty well and the times it doesn't we end up either removing the toy or holding the kid who isn't cooperating with the turns.
I really like this tactic. Thank you so much for your kind words.
I think you need to let go of the disobedience thing. Like if she disobeys just put her on timeout. Who cares if she willingly goes. I've rarely heard of a kid willingly going to time out. Just Make her stay there how ever many minutes and then punishment is over.
This is the whole point. She wasn't staying in time out. She was literally leaping off the bed and trying to run out of the room.
It sounds like I should have just stood in the hallway and held the doorknob until she calmed down.
Yeah that's what I do. It's not ideal but I think it's better than getting in s big thing with them
I'm with others - I don't know that at her age she would have a great comprehension about what a period of time means once it goes beyond a day or so. I remember years and years ago I read a study on justice and how punishments have a maximum potential to affect behaviour and then it really doesn't matter how much worse you make the punishment because it just doesn't have any greater effect. You could tell her you were taking away her ipad for two months or you could say she can't have it back until she's 15, the punishment has probably reached its maximum effectiveness much sooner than the two month threat.
I think it's definitely ok to let her earn her iPad time back. I also think it's perfectly ok for you to admit to her that taking it away for two months was a bit unfair and something you said when you were mad. I think four year olds (or really anyone at any age) can relate to that. I might tell her she is still not going to get the iPad for a week (or whatever) but she can earn it back by showing you that she knows how to share, that she doesn't throw toys when she's mad and that she listens to you when you ask her to do something. As the week wears on I might let her use the ipad for 20 minutes at a time when I see her exercising good behaviour so she gets the instant reward thing.
I couldn't agree with you more that out and out defiance is really frustrating and hard to deal with. I really liked your idea of standing still and making her come to you rather than chasing her around. Timeouts are not effective with my son so I can't really speak to how to force them to take a minute to calm down. I really like the idea of a positive time out space - this is more akin to what we do - we offer H a minute by himself to calm down. It's a choice, but at the same time, he's not allowed to come back and play until he's calm and ready to either apologize or otherwise work it out. He doesn't have to go somewhere specific, but we don't continue to engage him while he's screaming etc.
I'm very sorry to hear about your dad - I hope the girls go easy on you for the next little while
When DD was four and needed to be re-directed back to time out, I would re-director her and re-start the clock as many times as it took to do a successful 4 minute TO. I know it blows donkey balls to have to go get them 'rinse & repeat' calmly and without interaction until they do a 4 minute TO. At worst, it was a good 30-40 minute battle of wills, before the testing turned to compliance (this was only once or twice). I say this because four year olds, in general, act JUST LIKE your 4 year old. No idea/connection about future consequences. So, it was always completely ineffective to increase consequences - especially something like future allowance or future iPad use. I'll let others weigh-in on "earning it back" - I just offer support to not feel compelled to make consequences increasingly worse. Calmly enforcing the TO until it is finished is very effective - on its own. ::hugs::
Post by everythingsshinyap on Mar 3, 2015 15:16:59 GMT -5
I've absolutely lost hold of my sanity and have "over consequenced" my kids in the past. In these cases, I either make it pretty easy for them to earn privileges back like you suggest, or just admit I lost my cool and talk to them, maybe coming up with a more reasonable consequence together. Hang in there!
I think you need to let go of the disobedience thing. Like if she disobeys just put her on timeout. Who cares if she willingly goes. I've rarely heard of a kid willingly going to time out. Just Make her stay there how ever many minutes and then punishment is over.
This is the whole point. She wasn't staying in time out. She was literally leaping off the bed and trying to run out of the room.
It sounds like I should have just stood in the hallway and held the doorknob until she calmed down.
I haven't read the rest of the thread, but this jumped out at me.
When DS1 was four, he was verrry "spirited" and tested our limits often. When he would go into timeout, one of us would have to stand in the hall holding the doorknob so he would stay in his room. It worked, but it was seriously stressful for us. We decided to turn the doorknob around so it would lock from the outside. Now, when DS would lose it, he would go to his room for timeout and, if needed, we would lock the door to keep him there. He would occasionally trash his room and have a major meltdown because he couldn't get out, but it really reduced the stress of dealing with the situation for us. Of course, we stayed close so we could get to him quickly if needed, but removing the option for him to leave his room/time out when he wanted and giving him time to CALM DOWN worked wonders in the long run.
FWIW, he's a lovely, fun, and very in control of his behavior nine-year-old boy today. It will get better. Best of luck!