My older son got a "DD" at his after-school program today, which means he needs to be picked up within the hour. Apparently he was throwing things at other students and generally being an asshole.
This is the 3rd time this school year that he has had to be picked up due to his awful behavior. We have tried a lot of things to figure out what's going wrong, make sure he's getting enough water/protein, etc. Usually we take away TV for the rest of the day, since that is what means the most to him, but I feel like all of this isn't working.
My H is on the way now to pick him up. I am fuming at my desk at work. I want to end his world tonight, but I don't even know how.
What would you do if your school-aged kid had to be picked up from school for bad behavior? I am already planning to call his pedi tomorrow a.m. I need strategies for tonight to show him how serious this all is.
ETA: He's 5.5 and in K, sorry should have included that up front.
UPDATE: Thanks everyone for the advice and kind words. When I got home last night, I could tell DS1 was not in a good way so I didn't try to discuss anything with him. I just told I was disappointed in his behavior, and that he lost TV and screen time privileges until Friday night as a consequence for getting a DD. He was flippant about it last night, but this morning he really got upset because his routine is to watch TV before school while we get ready.
I talked to him this morning after he had a good night's sleep, and he started crying and telling me he can't read. I asked him what's going on, and he said he's having a hard time keeping up with his writing and he thinks he's a "terrible reader." He says he can't learn. This time of the year is when they really ramp up the reading and writing expectations, so I think he's having a hard time. It helps me to go into the parent-teacher conference next week ready to discuss what we can do to help. I can't get a conference before then, so in the meantime I am going to call the school adjustment counselor to see what extra help we can get for him.
I would take tv/ipad/electronics away indefinitely, not just the rest of the day. Have you talked to the school to find out if something is going on there that is causing him to act this way?
He's 5.5? Yes, I'd start with your pedi. See if they can help or give you some guidance. Also talk to the teacher/school. Find out what's going on that leads up to these incidents.
I would take tv/ipad/electronics away indefinitely, not just the rest of the day. Have you talked to the school to find out if something is going on there that is causing him to act this way?
I have a parent-teacher conference next week to discuss concerns.
Good call on taking away electronics indefinitely. Thanks.
Does he have an IEP? Is this only happening in the after school program?
It's happened a few times in the classroom too, but they didn't call it a DD or make us come get him. The after-school program is held at the school, and their policy is a parent needs to pick up if there is a DD.
No IEP, he's in K so we are just starting to see these problems.
Is this only happening in the after school program? Is there enough supervision? What strategies do they have in place for redirecting his behavior before it escalates? Would they be willing to implement a behavior plan?
I believe that a child should be held accountable for their actions, but structures need to be in place to assist them in making the right choices to begin with. (I was typing and missed some responses, so I am sorry if some of this is redundant).
5.5, and in K. Sorry, should have included that in OP.
No worries
What does he have to say about the incidents? I'd give the teacher a heads up about wanting details about what is leading up to the incidents before the P/T conference. Or-try to call this week to get something now to talk to the pedi about, just to start off with.
Is he bored by chance? Does he have issues expressing anger/frustration at home?
Also, if he's not willing to talk much about it tonight, maybe take him out one on one over the next two days to have some free-flowing conversation in a neutral place. He may spill more about it if it's not fresh on his mind. However, given his age, you risk him potentially not remembering the details too clearly.
Is this only happening in the after school program? Is there enough supervision? What strategies do they have in place for redirecting his behavior before it escalates? Would they be willing to implement a behavior plan?
I believe that a child should be held accountable for their actions, but structures need to be in place to assist them in making the right choices to begin with. (I was typing and missed some responses, so I am sorry if some of this is redundant).
Thank you for your thoughts. It's happened a few times in the classroom too. But in the last couple weeks it's gotten progressively worse. I have a PT conference next week with his K teacher, but I might also request a meeting with the after-school teachers to ask what they're doing to redirect. Thanks for the idea.
5.5, and in K. Sorry, should have included that in OP.
My DD is this age. I've started doing longer punishments. I would probably do no electronics through the weekend when she'd really feel it. Anything that is dangerous or can hurt other people gets the worst punishment.
DD is still having a rough transition to kindergarten. She doesn't get in trouble at school, but by the time she's home from school she acts out.
5.5, and in K. Sorry, should have included that in OP.
No worries
What does he have to say about the incidents? I'd give the teacher a heads up about wanting details about what is leading up to the incidents before the P/T conference. Or-try to call this week to get something now to talk to the pedi about, just to start off with.
Is he bored by chance? Does he have issues expressing anger/frustration at home?
Also, if he's not willing to talk much about it tonight, maybe take him out one on one over the next two days to have some free-flowing conversation in a neutral place. He may spill more about it if it's not fresh on his mind. However, given his age, you risk him potentially not remembering the details too clearly.
Thanks so much for your response. He does have trouble expressing his anger and frustration at home, and we've done a ton of work to help him "use his words" and act more appropriately. He is doing pretty good at home, so we are kind of shocked/sad to find out it's just ramping up at school.
When we talk to him about these incidents, he usually tells us he's hungry, tired, or thirsty. Or we get a lot of "I don't know's." So we're trying to fix what we can, increasing the protein in his diet, giving him more snacks in his lunch bag to carry him through the afternoon, and we even got permission for him to carry around a water bottle at school to make sure he's drinking enough. We have also been really on top of his bedtime.
I will bring it up with him again in a few days, to see if we get different answers or insights. Thanks for that idea.
5.5, and in K. Sorry, should have included that in OP.
My DD is this age. I've started doing longer punishments. I would probably do no electronics through the weekend when she'd really feel it. Anything that is dangerous or can hurt other people gets the worst punishment.
DD is still having a rough transition to kindergarten. She doesn't get in trouble at school, but by the time she's home from school she acts out.
Thanks for commiserating! I'm sorry your DD is having a rough adjustment to K as well.
I didn't even think to do longer punishments, so I am really glad I posted this. I am definitely going to take away TV for the rest of this week. He will be crushed, it's his only outlet. It's exactly what I need to do to show him how serious this is.
Post by barefootcontessa on Mar 3, 2015 18:28:10 GMT -5
I will say upfront I am not a fan of punishment (as opposed to natural consequences) for children this age. I used to be and then I had a highly sensitive and emotionally volatile child. Given that your DS does well controlling himself at home and not at school I would think there is something bothering him (especially since you have already addressed his diet and sleep). Since children often do not have the cognitive ability to articulate what is bothering them, I would take him to a certified play therapist. We have done this with my son and it was really helpful in revealing what was going on with my son. We also learned a lot of great strategies for parenting him. I would also look into having him see the guidance counselor on a regular basis. My son also does this and it has been helpful in that the counselor knows what is expected at school and what kinds of triggers my son is exposed to. She is also an ally for him so if he finds he is getting frustrated and angry he can go see her. My son is 6.5 and in 1st grade.
Post by imojoebunny on Mar 3, 2015 18:57:15 GMT -5
What time does he go to bed? I hate to be trite, but my 5.5 year old can be an asshole in the afternoons, if he is up past 7:30. He might not fall asleep until 8:00, but to get him to sleep at 8:00, he needs to be in bed, read to and door closed by 7:30. We get up at 6:45.
It could also be all the structure of modern kindergarten (I volunteer in DH's class, and it is scary structured, even from 3 years ago when DD was in k), coupled with a structured aftercare, with little down time. He might do better in an in home situation or some other type of aftercare, if it is highly structured, has a lot of older kids, or something that is stressing him out. I have yet to meet a kindergartner that wants to be bad.
Post by cricketwife on Mar 3, 2015 19:38:39 GMT -5
I'm sorry that you're dealing with this. It sounds really stressful. I agree with barefootcontessa about not punishing. I read the emails from ahaparenting.com -- they have a lot about reconnecting with your child and "time-ins" instead of time outs. It sort of sounds like a bunch of touchy-feely nonsense the way I just wrote it, but in reading their suggestions, it makes a lot of sense to me. It may be worth checking out their website and/or subscribing to their emails. That said, I have a 1 year old, and none of my parenting philosophies haven't been tested. Maybe I'll decide it IS a bunch of touchy-feely nonsense when I have a 5 year old acting out!
I really like the idea of having him meet with a play therapist and/or guidance counselor if you aren't able to help figure out what the root issue is.
I have a 1st grader and would be SHOCKED if the after school program was so ill-managed that they called me to pick her up early. I don't think that happens at our program. They have so many choices for the kids, and really excellent supervision. It's just a YMCA program, in the school, but still.
Maybe this program isn't a good match for your kid? Can you look into other options? I know our school will bus to child care centers, day care providers and such in the district. Maybe he needs a different after school environment.
Does he like the after school program? Maybe he has learned if he does XYZ, he gets to go home early, and so far, the consequences have been worth it to him.
I'd also wonder if he's having trouble with other kids in the program or if he dislikes the person in charge.
I wonder about the after school program. My DD went to ours in kinder and I was not a fan. They had a snack and then had "homework time". FOR AN HOUR. Which would be fine for an older kid maybe, but the kinders didn't have much homework and what little they had, they couldn't do without a parent mostly. So they sat there. They could talk quietly and color. That's it. They were bored out of their little skulls. After that hour was up they went outside to play, so then it was great. But that first hour was torture for my DD. I can absolutely see how a more energetic kid would go insane if your after school program is like ours. So definitely get more details from the after school people (who are NOT teachers in our program, mostly just college-aged kids, so no real skills/training to cope with outbursts either)
I apologize if my bluntness comes off as rude but your attitude of wanting to make your son feel pain (the phrase "I want to end his world" in your OP and your feeling like he needs to feel "crushed" to understand the gravity of what he has done) makes my heart break for your son. I really think this is the wrong approach and is going to set up an adversarial relationship between you and your son--ESPECIALLY since you haven't had a conference with his teacher yet to find out what is happening, if he is being picked on, if something about the after school program bothers him, etc. He is 5.5 and kids this age are typically not trying to be deliberately malicious when they misbehave--they are acting out because they don't have the tools or emotional maturity to process and handle strong emotions in a more constructive manner. Your job as a parent is to be his ally, help him learn better tools for managing unpleasant situations, and guide him in his developing relationships.
Now I get feeling so angry and frustrated by a misbehaving kid--I really do. My oldest will be 5 this summer and sometimes she makes me want to SCREAM. But I try to look at parenting as a long term process of how I can help her grow into a kind and self reliant person as opposed to just trying to get a bad behavior to stop now at any cost. So I would ask you to please not feel you need to crush your child to get him to understand. There are better ways that will leave his spirit and dignity--and yours--intact while teaching the desired lesson.
If you are open to alternative options--I would let him know you are disappointed in the behavior and try to get to the bottom of his side. Be an impartial listener and allow him to tell you about what happened and why he made the choices he did without interruption or judgment. Bring that information to the conference with you and find out what is going on from the teacher. Maybe there is an issue with his peers you can troubleshoot (I like the Positive Discipline tool the Anger Wheel of Choice for helping kids figure out how to handle negative emotions, especially in interactions with other kids). Maybe it's something else. I would be happy to give more specific advice with knowledge of what exactly is going on.
It IS appropriate to express your disappointment with his behavior and let him feel the natural consequences of his actions. Maybe he will miss TV time for a few days while you spend what would be his TV time discussing and working through his school problems together. Maybe he has to spend what would otherwise be TV time writing a letter of apology to his teachers and classmates. I would just try to give a consequence that is constructive and related to the actual problem so he can feel you are on his side and guiding him through it rather than being his adversary. He is almost certainly not trying to be deliberately malicious here and I think you do both of you a disservice by parenting with force and intimidation rather than guidance and love.
Good luck and please follow up if you are comfortable doing so.
I apologize if my bluntness comes off as rude but your attitude of wanting to make your son feel pain (the phrase "I want to end his world" in your OP and your feeling like he needs to feel "crushed" to understand the gravity of what he has done) makes my heart break for your son. I really think this is the wrong approach and is going to set up an adversarial relationship between you and your son--ESPECIALLY since you haven't had a conference with his teacher yet to find out what is happening, if he is being picked on, if something about the after school program bothers him, etc. He is 5.5 and kids this age are typically not trying to be deliberately malicious when they misbehave--they are acting out because they don't have the tools or emotional maturity to process and handle strong emotions in a more constructive manner. Your job as a parent is to be his ally, help him learn better tools for managing unpleasant situations, and guide him in his developing relationships.
Now I get feeling so angry and frustrated by a misbehaving kid--I really do. My oldest will be 5 this summer and sometimes she makes me want to SCREAM. But I try to look at parenting as a long term process of how I can help her grow into a kind and self reliant person as opposed to just trying to get a bad behavior to stop now at any cost. So I would ask you to please not feel you need to crush your child to get him to understand. There are better ways that will leave his spirit and dignity--and yours--intact while teaching the desired lesson.
If you are open to alternative options--I would let him know you are disappointed in the behavior and try to get to the bottom of his side. Be an impartial listener and allow him to tell you about what happened and why he made the choices he did without interruption or judgment. Bring that information to the conference with you and find out what is going on from the teacher. Maybe there is an issue with his peers you can troubleshoot (I like the Positive Discipline tool the Anger Wheel of Choice for helping kids figure out how to handle negative emotions, especially in interactions with other kids). Maybe it's something else. I would be happy to give more specific advice with knowledge of what exactly is going on.
It IS appropriate to express your disappointment with his behavior and let him feel the natural consequences of his actions. Maybe he will miss TV time for a few days while you spend what would be his TV time discussing and working through his school problems together. Maybe he has to spend what would otherwise be TV time writing a letter of apology to his teachers and classmates. I would just try to give a consequence that is constructive and related to the actual problem so he can feel you are on his side and guiding him through it rather than being his adversary. He is almost certainly not trying to be deliberately malicious here and I think you do both of you a disservice by parenting with force and intimidation rather than guidance and love.
Good luck and please follow up if you are comfortable doing so.
I posted when I was angry, so of course what I said sounded harsh. Thankfully I had my H pick him up so I could calm down by the time I got home. I promise you I didn't come in and start screaming at the kid, or say awful things to him. I understand that he is only 5, and there is probably something going on that is leading to this behavior.
My DS1 has been acting out in tough situations for over a year now, it started in his pre-K class and then got better, now it's peaking at public school. We have taken him to counselors, had 2 development screenings done, and had an observation done in his pre-K classroom to examine his behavior around his peers. I have gone to a pyschologist to learn strategies to help him adjust and control his behavior, read the book "The Explosive Child," and implemented strategies to help him control his emotions. I have done sticker charts. Everything works for a little bit, then they stop working and he starts acting out again. We have his behavior under control at home, now it's disheartening to hear he's acting out at school.
We are not just punitively disciplining him without also trying to understand what's going on behind it. I know what my job is as a parent, thank you.
I posted to get some new ideas on how to handle this situation, because what we're doing now isn't working. When I take away TV for the night, he laughs and says "ok fine, I don't care." So the suggestions to do a longer-term punishment by taking away screen time were exactly what I was looking for. Just because you get one snippet on a message board does not mean I don't advocate for my son.
What time does he go to bed? I hate to be trite, but my 5.5 year old can be an asshole in the afternoons, if he is up past 7:30. He might not fall asleep until 8:00, but to get him to sleep at 8:00, he needs to be in bed, read to and door closed by 7:30. We get up at 6:45.
It could also be all the structure of modern kindergarten (I volunteer in DH's class, and it is scary structured, even from 3 years ago when DD was in k), coupled with a structured aftercare, with little down time. He might do better in an in home situation or some other type of aftercare, if it is highly structured, has a lot of older kids, or something that is stressing him out. I have yet to meet a kindergartner that wants to be bad.
This is excellent advice, thank you. My DS1's bedtime has always been 8 p.m., but I think you're absolutely right, by the time he gets into bed and falls asleep it's probably closer to 8:30. The nights I've put him to bed by 7:30-7:40 because he's overtired, he does so much better the next couple of days. I think I should probably move his bedtime up to 7:30 every night, it might help that he consistently gets to sleep by 8 p.m. every night. He is an early riser, so he might just be chronically overtired.
Post by barefootcontessa on Mar 4, 2015 9:49:00 GMT -5
I saw your follow-up to page and saw you have seen a counselor. Have you seen a play therapist? I do not have a link handy but there are videos that explain the theory behind play therapy and why it is helpful. It sounds to me like you should be getting more support from the school as well. Having trouble with emotions and anger particularly are not at all uncommon problems. My son has a planned curriculum with the guidance counselor tailored to him (this is not part of an IEP, just part of the services the public school provides). A big part of that plan is him knowing he can leave his classroom and take a break if he feels his emotions are getting the better of him. Him having a plan for himself has been a key component of him gaining better control at school.
It seems significant that he does fine at home for the most part but struggles at school. I think most of the time it is the opposite -- better at school and more challenging at home (which is how my son is). Is your son also very sensitive? I know with my son things that bothers him do not even show up on the radar for other kids. This makes it hard for the adults to ascertain what is wrong -- which again is another reason why we see a play therapist.
I apologize if my bluntness comes off as rude but your attitude of wanting to make your son feel pain (the phrase "I want to end his world" in your OP and your feeling like he needs to feel "crushed" to understand the gravity of what he has done) makes my heart break for your son. I really think this is the wrong approach and is going to set up an adversarial relationship between you and your son--ESPECIALLY since you haven't had a conference with his teacher yet to find out what is happening, if he is being picked on, if something about the after school program bothers him, etc. He is 5.5 and kids this age are typically not trying to be deliberately malicious when they misbehave--they are acting out because they don't have the tools or emotional maturity to process and handle strong emotions in a more constructive manner. Your job as a parent is to be his ally, help him learn better tools for managing unpleasant situations, and guide him in his developing relationships.
Now I get feeling so angry and frustrated by a misbehaving kid--I really do. My oldest will be 5 this summer and sometimes she makes me want to SCREAM. But I try to look at parenting as a long term process of how I can help her grow into a kind and self reliant person as opposed to just trying to get a bad behavior to stop now at any cost. So I would ask you to please not feel you need to crush your child to get him to understand. There are better ways that will leave his spirit and dignity--and yours--intact while teaching the desired lesson.
If you are open to alternative options--I would let him know you are disappointed in the behavior and try to get to the bottom of his side. Be an impartial listener and allow him to tell you about what happened and why he made the choices he did without interruption or judgment. Bring that information to the conference with you and find out what is going on from the teacher. Maybe there is an issue with his peers you can troubleshoot (I like the Positive Discipline tool the Anger Wheel of Choice for helping kids figure out how to handle negative emotions, especially in interactions with other kids). Maybe it's something else. I would be happy to give more specific advice with knowledge of what exactly is going on.
It IS appropriate to express your disappointment with his behavior and let him feel the natural consequences of his actions. Maybe he will miss TV time for a few days while you spend what would be his TV time discussing and working through his school problems together. Maybe he has to spend what would otherwise be TV time writing a letter of apology to his teachers and classmates. I would just try to give a consequence that is constructive and related to the actual problem so he can feel you are on his side and guiding him through it rather than being his adversary. He is almost certainly not trying to be deliberately malicious here and I think you do both of you a disservice by parenting with force and intimidation rather than guidance and love.
Good luck and please follow up if you are comfortable doing so.
I posted when I was angry, so of course what I said sounded harsh. Thankfully I had my H pick him up so I could calm down by the time I got home. I promise you I didn't come in and start screaming at the kid, or say awful things to him. I understand that he is only 5, and there is probably something going on that is leading to this behavior.
My DS1 has been acting out in tough situations for over a year now, it started in his pre-K class and then got better, now it's peaking at public school. We have taken him to counselors, had 2 development screenings done, and had an observation done in his pre-K classroom to examine his behavior around his peers. I have gone to a pyschologist to learn strategies to help him adjust and control his behavior, read the book "The Explosive Child," and implemented strategies to help him control his emotions. I have done sticker charts. Everything works for a little bit, then they stop working and he starts acting out again. We have his behavior under control at home, now it's disheartening to hear he's acting out at school.
We are not just punitively disciplining him without also trying to understand what's going on behind it. I know what my job is as a parent, thank you.
I posted to get some new ideas on how to handle this situation, because what we're doing now isn't working. When I take away TV for the night, he laughs and says "ok fine, I don't care." So the suggestions to do a longer-term punishment by taking away screen time were exactly what I was looking for. Just because you get one snippet on a message board does not mean I don't advocate for my son.
I know you wrote in anger but writing those words at all is what troubled me.
I'm sorry you're going through this. From your update it seems like he's a sensitive kid with big feelings. I can relate. What is his afterschool program like? Maybe he needs something less stimulating? Good luck at the conference.
I saw your follow-up to page and saw you have seen a counselor. Have you seen a play therapist? I do not have a link handy but there are videos that explain the theory behind play therapy and why it is helpful. It sounds to me like you should be getting more support from the school as well. Having trouble with emotions and anger particularly are not at all uncommon problems. My son has a planned curriculum with the guidance counselor tailored to him (this is not part of an IEP, just part of the services the public school provides). A big part of that plan is him knowing he can leave his classroom and take a break if he feels his emotions are getting the better of him. Him having a plan for himself has been a key component of him gaining better control at school.
It seems significant that he does fine at home for the most part but struggles at school. I think most of the time it is the opposite -- better at school and more challenging at home (which is how my son is). Is your son also very sensitive? I know with my son things that bothers him do not even show up on the radar for other kids. This makes it hard for the adults to ascertain what is wrong -- which again is another reason why we see a play therapist.
We have not seen a play therapist, thanks for that suggestion. You make a lot of great points, and seem to understand my son! He is very sensitive. We know his triggers, and are very in tune to him, so I think he is good at home because of all the work we did to understand him. I think he knows our expectations at home, and can manage himself better. We also can see when he is starting to lose control and help him get back on track. The expectations at school are always changing, and there is a lot of pressure right now for him to learn to read. He is probably lacking the skills to manage these newfound expectations. Thanks for helping me realize that.
I like your idea of giving him a modification in the classroom if things get too stressful and/or he feels himself losing control of his emotions. I am going to bring this up at the conference next week.
Post by undecidedowl on Mar 4, 2015 10:11:43 GMT -5
It sounds like you handled it perfectly. Glad he was able to open up a bit and share with you why he is frustrated. I hope your meeting goes well next week now that you have something to really focus on for helping him.
I'm sorry you're going through this. From your update it seems like he's a sensitive kid with big feelings. I can relate. What is his afterschool program like? Maybe he needs something less stimulating? Good luck at the conference.
Thanks.
The after-school program is run by the public school system, it's held in the cafeteria at his school and is not overly structured as far as I know. He loved it there at the beginning of the school year, even more than Kindergarten, but now it seems he's falling apart there. We have seen a pattern that he falls apart at the after-school program when he had an incident in the classroom earlier in the day. I know he loves the after-school teachers, so I'm not sure if he feels more comfortable losing it there with them as opposed to in the classroom? The girls are younger and very friendly, whereas his teacher is kind of no-nonsense and strict.
I have been talking with the after-school staff after every incident about how we can help him, so they are very willing to work with us. We have provided more snacks and a water bottle to make sure it was not hunger or thirst-related, so they have been great trying to help us figure this out. I might ask them to let him have more downtime at the program though, in case it is all too much for him after a long day.