Weigh in on this debate for me (feminim/sort of @ related)

[eclaires]

So as I mentioned in another post, we decided to do a badass women hall of fame gallery wall in Scarlett's room.  It's going to include fictional characters, historical figures, and current badasses via art, quotes, and photos.

At dinner last night we were talking about it, and my husband said that he thinks I need to do something similar for Jackson's room.  Initially, I thought he meant because I was putting major effort into something for Scarlett's room so my response was "but we've already done stuff for his walls in his room that is to his taste" (some of what we are doing on the wall for Scarlett is specific to things she likes and that's how I got started with the idea).  And my husband said, "no, I mean, I think you are sending the wrong message to Scarlett if you do a wall of inspiration women but not for Jackson.  It's like saying women need inspirational quotes to decide to do things."  I think where he is coming from is that to him it's very black/white, men and women are equal in his eyes (that's simply his nature - he's not much for shades of gray) and I think he misses the broader picture that society still doesn't see them that way and the messages Scarlett will get as a girl are much different than Jackson will get as a boy.  At the same time, I have said several times that I think men need to be included in this feminist fight because by making feminine qualities/norms less, we make it harder for men to embrace those qualities in themselves.  And I have also long said that I think the biggest difference I can make is raising my son to be a feminist.

On some level, I sort of see what he is saying, but my main response to him was that men have long been the standard/norm, and this wall isn't about inspiring Scarlett for me.  A big part for me is the historical aspect of it - I want her to know that women had to fight and are still fighting simply because they were born female.  I want her to see that despite what society might tell her, women really can do anything.  For Jackson, I feel like, as a male, it's not the same.  As the standard/norm, there's never any question of what he can do or fighting for it simply because he was born a certain gender.  He doesn't need examples because he is the default (white male).

That said, I'm not opposed to doing something for Jackson's wall if he wants something new, but I don't think I'd do a wall of badass men...I'd probably have him pick something that he's interested in and find things related to that.  Partially because he's older and does have more defined interests, but also because a wall of badass men just seems odd to me.  Although, if I did something for him that was more general, I feel like I'd include men and women?  But mostly, I think, for me, the point is Jackson is the default and only recently have women made such huge gains in rights/careers/education and I think it's important for Scarlett to know that (Jackson too, but I think it'd be sort of odd to put a wall of badass women in his room - not that I'm opposed to that) and be shown examples of women in various roles since a lot of things are still male dominated.

So what say you, CEP?  I'm right aren't I?

[tres3]

Could you do a wall of inspiring quotes for him... men, women, black, white, asian, etc.

[Deleted]

You could totally do inspirational quotes from men about feminism for Jackson's room.

ETA: Joking aside, I do think there are plenty of values you want to instill in your son that society doesn't think is important for boys to develop and there are lots of quotes to that end. It doesn't have to be about rah rah inspiration to make an impact on your child.

Quotes on equality, fairness, compassion, kindness, sensitivity, etc would be good things to put in a little boy's head.

[eclaires]

I knew I was right - I was basically thinking the same thing - a wall of inspiring people/quotes for him in general or something similar with a focus on feminism.

I kind of want to do the latter because my MIL would shit her pants.

My mom is probably going to shit her pants at the slightly adult and subversive things I plan to include on Scarlett's.

[eclaires]

Mar 26, 2015 7:57:04 GMT -5 tillie said:

All I have to add is I LOVE the name Scarlett!!!

It was the only name my husband and I agreed on.  I suggested it as a middle name (due to my love of Gone with the Wind and Scarlett O'Hara) thinking he'd hate it out of sheer frustration with him shooting down every first name suggestion I had.  Instead he said he loved it and that we should use it as a first name.    It fits her sassy self (we actually call her Sassy 90% of the time and she introduces herself as Sassy, lol) perfectly.

[eclaires]

Mar 26, 2015 7:22:27 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

You could totally do inspirational quotes from men about feminism for Jackson's room.

ETA: Joking aside, I do think there are plenty of values you want to instill in your son that society doesn't think is important for boys to develop and there are lots of quotes to that end. It doesn't have to be about rah rah inspiration to make an impact on your child.

Quotes on equality, fairness, compassion, kindness, sensitivity, etc would be good things to put in a little boy's head.

Ahhh yes!  This is what I was kind of thinking but couldn't put into words.  I think I will do that for him.  I'm sure, like with Scarlett, I can fit in some of his favorite characters/interests into that.

PS meshaliuknits check out what I bought for Scarlett's wall.  They are 5x7.

[msmerymac]

I wouldn't do a roomful of quotations if you've recently decorated his room to his tastes. He's also certainly old enough to have input on what he wants on his walls.

But I guess it would be nice to concentrate on some feminist things with Jackson at this time, too. Maybe there are some books that are at his level that focus on the accomplishments of women. Or some events or art exhibits that you two can do on your own that bring up some age-appropriate feminist discussions?

[pescalita]

I'm just going to agree with you. I think feminism has a similar place in our marriages and with our husbands, but I think it's absolutely ok and right to raise a white male child differently than anyone else.

We were hanging out with friends of ours, and she mentioned the "sharing debate", people thinking kids shouldn't automatically have to share etc. I said that's fine, but I'm raising two upper-middle class white boys. They get their fair shakes by default. I'm not going to stop any chance to pay that back to others.

[charminglife]

Your plans for your daughter's room are fantastic and it's fine if you don't do something similar for your son. I like msmerymac's idea of focusing on feminist things in other ways, books, any TV specials for Women's History Month - is he old enough for any museum exhibits or anything like that?

(Also - your kids are beautiful - I love that photo of your daughter!)

[meshaliuknits]

Where did you get those?!

[eclaires]

Mar 26, 2015 10:12:10 GMT -5 meshaliuknits said:

Where did you get those?!

www.etsy.com/shop/EcholynnesEtchings?ref=l2-shopheader-name

I might need more!

[ChillyMcFreeze]

I just want to know who that grown up girl in your siggy is.

[downtoearth]

I think you have some good ideas, but I sure would be trying to understand my DH more wanting to know if he was calling me out for doing more/being more vested in S's room over J's (unequal attention) or if he really felt that focusing on feminism in S's room meant you were discriminating against your son. I assume it was more of the former, but since I only have boys, I always find how other parents, and especially fathers, treat daughters vs. sons as interesting. Sometimes it's just a matter of the kid being different and sometimes it's actually a gender thing. So I would probably just chat with DH about that to get a pulse on what he perceived was not equal in his view.

[meshaliuknits]

Mar 26, 2015 10:28:10 GMT -5 eclaires said:

Mar 26, 2015 10:12:10 GMT -5 meshaliuknits said:

Where did you get those?!

www.etsy.com/shop/EcholynnesEtchings?ref=l2-shopheader-name

I might need more!

OMG I love those! I wonder if BabyLiu needs some...

[eclaires]

Mar 26, 2015 10:38:53 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

I think you have some good ideas, but I sure would be trying to understand my DH more wanting to know if he was calling me out for doing more/being more vested in S's room over J's (unequal attention) or if he really felt that focusing on feminism in S's room meant you were discriminating against your son. I assume it was more of the former, but since I only have boys, I always find how other parents, and especially fathers, treat daughters vs. sons as interesting. Sometimes it's just a matter of the kid being different and sometimes it's actually a gender thing. So I would probably just chat with DH about that to get a pulse on what he perceived was not equal in his view.

Maybe I didn't make his argument clear.  His concern wasn't over slighting Jackson or discriminating against Jackson... his concern was the message that it sent Scarlett - that we somehow thought she was less, or women were less and because of that we felt she needed inspirational quotes/inspiration from other women to succeed in life or to pursue her dreams.  Like by not doing it for Jackson, we were sending a message to Scarlett that we thought she couldn't do it on her own/without this because she's a girl and needed an inspirational wall but that we don't think Jackson needs one because he's somehow better or more capable.

But my intent was never really about inspiration.  It was about putting a twist on an idea I had of things she liked for a gallery wall - I noticed that she focuses on the female superheroes and is really into them, so I thought it would be neat to expand that out to other fictional characters and historical figures that were badass, or "superheroes" in their own way.  I don't think I would have done this simply because she's a girl - I noticed a natural tendency of hers to gravitate towards female superheroes specifically and thought it would be a cool way to tie in things she's into, things that she might end up being curious about, things we want her to know and tying in my love of history to show her women who have triumphed vs. standard wall gallery decor.  

[pescalita]

If you already did J's room to his interests, I can't imagine it's lacking in badass male influences? I mean, maybe not as directly.

[emilyj]

I think you are right. I don't think it sends a message of inequality at all. For Jackson, I like the idea of inspirational quotes from a range of people (if that's something he even wants).

It sounds like, from what you have said in the past, that you are doing a great job of teaching Jackson about respect for women, as well as other feminist principles and values. For his room, maybe just those little reminders to reinforce what you are teaching him.

Also, Scarlett is absolutely GORGEOUS.

[downtoearth]

Mar 26, 2015 11:01:39 GMT -5 eclaires said:

Mar 26, 2015 10:38:53 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

I think you have some good ideas, but I sure would be trying to understand my DH more wanting to know if he was calling me out for doing more/being more vested in S's room over J's (unequal attention) or if he really felt that focusing on feminism in S's room meant you were discriminating against your son. I assume it was more of the former, but since I only have boys, I always find how other parents, and especially fathers, treat daughters vs. sons as interesting. Sometimes it's just a matter of the kid being different and sometimes it's actually a gender thing. So I would probably just chat with DH about that to get a pulse on what he perceived was not equal in his view.

Maybe I didn't make his argument clear.  His concern wasn't over slighting Jackson or discriminating against Jackson... his concern was the message that it sent Scarlett - that we somehow thought she was less, or women were less and because of that we felt she needed inspirational quotes/inspiration from other women to succeed in life or to pursue her dreams.  Like by not doing it for Jackson, we were sending a message to Scarlett that we thought she couldn't do it on her own/without this because she's a girl and needed an inspirational wall but that we don't think Jackson needs one because he's somehow better or more capable.

But my intent was never really about inspiration.  It was about putting a twist on an idea I had of things she liked for a gallery wall - I noticed that she focuses on the female superheroes and is really into them, so I thought it would be neat to expand that out to other fictional characters and historical figures that were badass, or "superheroes" in their own way.  I don't think I would have done this simply because she's a girl - I noticed a natural tendency of hers to gravitate towards female superheroes specifically and thought it would be a cool way to tie in things she's into, things that she might end up being curious about, things we want her to know and tying in my love of history to show her women who have triumphed vs. standard wall gallery decor.  

Sorry my misunderstanding.  I thought you hadn't discussed yet and were just hypothesizing, but I get it now. Sounds like your DH had an interesting perspective.

[eclaires]

Mar 26, 2015 11:08:03 GMT -5 pescalita said:

If you already did J's room to his interests, I can't imagine it's lacking in badass male influences? I mean, maybe not as directly.

Depends on whether you think Mario of Super Mario Bros fame is badass?  lol!  He also has a bunch of Marvel stuff, but in all fairness, we did his room when he was 5-6, and Scarlett will be 5 in September.  Were transitioning her decor to more of what she's into vs. what I chose for her nursery and when she moved to a big girl bed.  

Jackson could probably use an update, though, and we've been meaning to take some things off his wall (he has a big magnet board that he's totally outgrown and a chalkboard he doesn't use either - we were going to move them to the playroom.  

Anyway, we sort of resolved our conversation with me saying that I would talk to Jackson about what he might like for his walls and see if I got any brilliant inspiration like I did with Scarlett... because that is really what it spun off of - I was thinking about what to put on a standard gallery wall for her and what she might like when I was struck with brilliance (lol).

[LoveTrains]

What about putting the inspirational quotes int he playroom? I like the idea of having quotes from people of all backgrounds, as others have mentioned.

[eclaires]

Mar 26, 2015 11:12:28 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Mar 26, 2015 11:01:39 GMT -5 eclaires said:

Maybe I didn't make his argument clear.  His concern wasn't over slighting Jackson or discriminating against Jackson... his concern was the message that it sent Scarlett - that we somehow thought she was less, or women were less and because of that we felt she needed inspirational quotes/inspiration from other women to succeed in life or to pursue her dreams.  Like by not doing it for Jackson, we were sending a message to Scarlett that we thought she couldn't do it on her own/without this because she's a girl and needed an inspirational wall but that we don't think Jackson needs one because he's somehow better or more capable.

But my intent was never really about inspiration.  It was about putting a twist on an idea I had of things she liked for a gallery wall - I noticed that she focuses on the female superheroes and is really into them, so I thought it would be neat to expand that out to other fictional characters and historical figures that were badass, or "superheroes" in their own way.  I don't think I would have done this simply because she's a girl - I noticed a natural tendency of hers to gravitate towards female superheroes specifically and thought it would be a cool way to tie in things she's into, things that she might end up being curious about, things we want her to know and tying in my love of history to show her women who have triumphed vs. standard wall gallery decor.  

Sorry my misunderstanding.  I thought you hadn't discussed yet and were just hypothesizing, but I get it now. Sounds like your DH had an interesting perspective.

He's sort of new to feminism and being a feminist, lol.  I don't mean that in a negative way like he was previously a sexist asshole, but like I mentioned he's very black/white, and to him, Scarlett can absolutely do anything she wants to.  Men and women are equal, the end.  But having a daughter changed his perspective in that he's aware that we (and society) send her messages even if we aren't saying words, so sometimes his thought process is totally out there to me because he previously didn't pay much attention to feminism because he himself saw women as equals and didn't really think much beyond that.  Like it was accepted as fact in his brain, so that was the end of it.  It's interesting though because I think it often means he doesn't have any preconceived notions or specific information like I do, so he totally has these thoughts that seemingly come out of nowhere to me.

I guess, at the end of the day, even if I disagree with him, I love that he is fighting for our daughter and speaking up when he thinks we might be somehow undermining her self worth or her perception of how we see her and/or women.  It's sort of why I brought it up here, because talking about it with others helps me in explaining to him.  I want to be able to explain to him my perspective and for him to understand it, and I think I did an okay job (but I'm sure we will revisit it) because I want to validate and respect him fighting for Scarlett even if it doesn't initially make sense to me or seems sort of off the wall.  I don't want him to stop being active by dismissing his perspective, I guess?

[eclaires]

Mar 26, 2015 11:10:25 GMT -5 emilyj said:

I think you are right. I don't think it sends a message of inequality at all. For Jackson, I like the idea of inspirational quotes from a range of people (if that's something he even wants).

It sounds like, from what you have said in the past, that you are doing a great job of teaching Jackson about respect for women, as well as other feminist principles and values. For his room, maybe just those little reminders to reinforce what you are teaching him.

Also, Scarlett is absolutely GORGEOUS.

Aww thanks!  On both counts.  

My favorite makeup artist recently told me I had to sign her with an agency because she's so gorgeous and because her temperament (we were getting makeup with my mom and were there for like 3 hours) is perfect for that kind of thing... but I don't think we're going to do that.  

[meshaliuknits]

Which quotes are you going to use for Starfire and Raven? May I offer the following suggestions?

Raven:
Whatever
Azarath Metrion Zinthos
We're going to play a game. It's called "Don't bother Raven."
I'm fighting a vaccum cleaner and losing! This is embarrassing.


Starfire:

Shamma Lamma Mumu
On my planet, that is hilarious

There's also a good one about racism from the original Teen Titans, but that might be a little heavy for Miss Sassy.

[downtoearth]

eclaires - I think it's cool that his perspective is different, but from a place of love.

Oh and this thread made me think about some things to talk to DH about from different perspectives of raising tolerant and strong girls vs boys.

[eclaires]

Mar 26, 2015 11:42:19 GMT -5 meshaliuknits said:

Which quotes are you going to use for Starfire and Raven? May I offer the following suggestions?

Raven:
Whatever
Azarath Metrion Zinthos
We're going to play a game. It's called "Don't bother Raven."
I'm fighting a vaccum cleaner and losing! This is embarrassing.


Starfire:

Shamma Lamma Mumu
On my planet, that is hilarious

There's also a good one about racism from the original Teen Titans, but that might be a little heavy for Miss Sassy.

I haven't decided yet! My favorite Starfire quote is "it's too late for the sorry!" Partially because Scarlett had used that in an argument with Jackson before. But it's maybe not the best message lol.

[meshaliuknits]

Mar 26, 2015 11:48:13 GMT -5 eclaires said:

Mar 26, 2015 11:42:19 GMT -5 meshaliuknits said:

Which quotes are you going to use for Starfire and Raven? May I offer the following suggestions?

Raven:
Whatever
Azarath Metrion Zinthos
We're going to play a game. It's called "Don't bother Raven."
I'm fighting a vaccum cleaner and losing! This is embarrassing.


Starfire:

Shamma Lamma Mumu
On my planet, that is hilarious

There's also a good one about racism from the original Teen Titans, but that might be a little heavy for Miss Sassy.

I haven't decided yet! My favorite Starfire quote is "it's too late for the sorry!" Partially because Scarlett had used that in an argument with Jackson before. But it's maybe not the best message lol.

No she did not! LOLOLOL  I want to hang out with her. She sounds like a blast. All I get at our house is "Waffles waffles waffles!" The BabyLiu mix version of the song has the donuts song from Steven Universe.

I found the one I was talking about:

There will always be people who say mean words because you are different. And sometimes their minds cannot be changed. But there are many more people who do not judge others based on how they look or where they are from. Those are the people whose words truly matter.

 It's not a funny episode, but it was quite good. For funny I recommend The Quest where everyone dresses up like Robin while he's gone.   "The mask makes me feel cool."

[eclaires]

Mar 26, 2015 11:59:13 GMT -5 meshaliuknits said:

Mar 26, 2015 11:48:13 GMT -5 eclaires said:

I haven't decided yet! My favorite Starfire quote is "it's too late for the sorry!" Partially because Scarlett had used that in an argument with Jackson before. But it's maybe not the best message lol.

No she did not! LOLOLOL  I want to hang out with her. She sounds like a blast. All I get at our house is "Waffles waffles waffles!" The BabyLiu mix version of the song has the donuts song from Steven Universe.

I found the one I was talking about:

There will always be people who say mean words because you are different. And sometimes their minds cannot be changed. But there are many more people who do not judge others based on how they look or where they are from. Those are the people whose words truly matter.

 It's not a funny episode, but it was quite good. For funny I recommend The Quest where everyone dresses up like Robin while he's gone.   "The mask makes me feel cool."

I love that!!!!

When Scarlett used that on jackson it was one of my proudest parenting moments lol.

[dawnzersong]

I love this idea for room decor! I can see where your husband's coming from, but I don't think he's got it quite right. It's not that your daughter needs extra encouragement because she is less-than, it's because she's going to grow up in a world in which other people will treat her as less-than, no matter how egalitarian society is on paper. What you want to do in her room is to combat the countless, often subtle, messages she will inevitably be bombarded with as she gets older.

[saz]

I really see both of your perspectives here, but I think it would be appropriate to do a wall of role models and good quotes for him. Not necessarily badass men, but good quality people who have done great things in the world.

[FloFTW]

magazine.good.is/articles/illustrated-feminist-heroes-to-teach-children-their-abcs

Thought of you!