So...my faith is...in a tough place right now. I don't need a religious debate, I need some input from those who consider themselves current believers. I'm so not trying to play post police. It's just I don't really know how to talk to anyone about this, so I'm bringing it here.
I keep having people tell me how God knows what it is to lose a child because he gave his only son. But that is not resonating with me at all--instead it just makes me angrier. God knew he would be separated from his son for a whole 33 years. And then they would get back to spending eternity together. So a whole 33 years, which is probably like a millisecond to people like us. And not only that, but he could see and talk to him during that time. So big deal.
I don't even really know what I'm looking for. Maybe some words of wisdom that will give me new perspective?
Are they people who are close enough for you to tell them to stop? I know this isn't the same thing at all but when I first got really sick and spent a month at the hospital my mom said a lot of stuff like that. Eventually I told her that I knew her intentions were good but she was having the opposite effect as intended so please lay off for a while.
People say all sorts of things that are well intentioned but not at all helpful.
The problem is, it's not just people...it's Mass, the readings, etc. I mean, it's Easter. But as someone really searching for comfort and understanding, it's hard to escape it. I don't know if that makes any sense.
People are assholes? I mean, really, they are. Loving assholes, but assholes nonetheless.
If I hear one more time, "God doesn't give us more than we can handle" I'm going to fucking rip their head off.
So... yeah, I'm not the best person to answer this.
I will say that my pastor said something to the effect of, "God didn't do this. He had no hand in what happened. It's between you and God what you believe right now. I won't try to tell you one way or the other what to think."
And really, that's all I needed. I didn't need people trying to soothe me with God talk. I needed to work it out myself.
((hugs))
FWIW, God and I are on shaky ground right now. I was so angry with him when my sister lost her baby. So angry. I worked through that, and then this happened. I'm not angry. I'm... tired. Jaded.
The problem is, it's not just people...it's Mass, the readings, etc. I mean, it's Easter. But as someone really searching for comfort and understanding, it's hard to escape it. I don't know if that makes any sense.
Yup. I get this. I don't have words to make it more bearable. Find comfort from the parts you can in whatever increments you can.
Post by underwaterrhymes on Mar 31, 2015 17:45:21 GMT -5
It's okay to be mad at God. This isn't fair. It's fucked up and it's shitty. And the people who say things like God never gives you more than you can handle or that God lost his child too are assholes, however well-intentioned. Bullshit.
The truth is we are often are given more than we can handle or it feels like we can handle. And when that happens prayer doesn't do shit because it doesn't bring anybody back and sometimes it just makes us angrier.
It is going to take time and love from your friends and family and more time. And it's okay to yell at God and to be mad or to stop believing or to hate him because some really fucking terrible things happen and when we are falling apart inside loving God isn't easy and shouldn't be expected.
You will find your way back or you won't and both are okay.
Post by picksthemusic on Mar 31, 2015 17:45:59 GMT -5
When I miscarried, it was hard for me to understand why and where God was in all of it, and for me (not saying that this is how you should feel at ALL), it was more about relying on God, and knowing there is a greater plan than what was going on in that moment. But in the trenches of the grief, I knew that I wasn't alone.
I know this sucks, and I'm so sorry you're going through this.
Like PP said, people can be well-meaning and want to make it all better with what they say.
One thing I've learned from my grief support group is that the Church (all denominations across the board) 99.5% of the time fail for grieving parents. So it's not just you. Which I don't know if that's comforting or not, but it helped me to know I wasn't alone in not finding comfort within my church/scripture/God.
Post by omgzombies on Mar 31, 2015 18:07:11 GMT -5
I'm so sorry you are hurting. Is there a person at your church pastor/priest/counselor who you could meet with and talk things through with?
I'm not a Christian, so I don't know if this will help at all or not, but I do believe in a Creator. Despite believing in something higher that helped to create this world, I don't believe that he/she/it regulates it or decides what happens. In the same way you don't care about what the ants in the ant farm do to one another. I currently like the idea that whoever created us did so, because initially God was infinite, and an infinite being has no way to examine itself, so it broke itself apart into pieces (our universe, us) so that we could live life, the good and the bad. God is not to blame for the bad stuff or the good stuff, but by experiencing it and coming to know ourselves through our experience we connect to each other and to God. That idea of connection has helped to bring me peace, but I know it's not for everyone.
I'm so sorry you're struggling with this. I'm a believer, but I've never experienced the loss of a pregnancy or child, so I'm not sure how helpful my words will be.
Like others have said, it's okay to be mad at God and to live in your grief. The entire book of Job is an expression of grief and confusion over why God would allow such a faithful man to experience such horrific loss.
I do believe God feels our pain, but much like a parent feels her child's pain when she's unhappy or injured, as opposed to having felt it personally. We suffer deep loss because we and our loved ones are mortal. God is not, and so in that way, He really hasn't experienced that loss. It doesn't mean He abandons us when we feel that loss. I believe He's still with us, comforting us and guiding us along the way.
I feel the saying "God knows what it's like," is almost like someone is saying, "It's okay, because God understands." It's not okay. It's never okay to suffer such a painful loss. All we can do is find comfort and learn to live with the grief. Your little girl is with God, but I'm sure that doesn't make it easier that she's not with you.
I guess my perspective hearkens to your comment about God getting to spend eternity with His son after losing him for a short time. You have lost your little girl for a time, but you will get to spend eternity with her.
Post by iammalcolmx on Mar 31, 2015 18:13:22 GMT -5
Katie, it's not what you are dealing with but you know how hard of a time I am having with the death of my friend, while giving birth, and then the death of her baby. This type of thing is a test of faith and the crap people are saying to you is just that, crap. While I deal with my anger and misunderstanding of God, I realize my friend was a person of deep faith and that gives me some comfort. She gave a speech in High School, to my class, about what Islam meant to her. You are hurting and so very confused, that's OK. In your very brief moments calmness remember we are not going to understand his plan while we are on Earth. None of it, from our joys to unbearable pain. I wasn't trying to make this about me, just trying to give you my tearful and painful thoughts. I love you.
Hm. Well, I'm a believing non-practicer (if that makes sense), and I think people just say the things they think they're supposed to say.
I think to try to makes sense of something that makes no sense is futile. I think like a lot of things, thinking "it's part of a plan" or "God knows what He's doing" or the other stuff works for some, and not for others. I think, just like in parenting itself, you find what works for you. And maybe that's being angry, or maybe it's being sad, or maybe it's taking a break from a strained relationship (with God, I mean). And that's okay. You're okay doing what feels right to you, not what everyone else (well-meaning assholes, the church, your pastor, family, maybe even you) thinks you should. *hugs* to you.
Post by spidervain on Mar 31, 2015 18:31:35 GMT -5
I'll start by saying you have my deepest lurker sympathies. I hope that my post will be helpful at best, or fall of the radar at worst. Not having the experience that some of you have, I definitely don't want anything to come off as insensitive.
I haven't read it, or experienced your pain, so I don't know that it is what you're looking for, but I know that it was one tool she used to navigate her pain and the grief.
Speaking from a faith perspective, I don't think God expects us to have a relationship that is consistent/constant with him at all times. I think He expects that our feelings of faith will fluctuate. I think that the times we're on shaky ground with him are ok. That's part of the faith journey.
Post by karinothing on Mar 31, 2015 18:37:48 GMT -5
When i lost my mom and then later miscarried i found comfort in the book When Bad Things Happen to Good People. It is by a Rabbi and I am Catholic, but found it helpful. The author lost his son and dedicated the book to him.
It just really solidified the idea that God doesn't cause suffering (he doesn't dole it out to test or punish us). On the same token he doesn't reward us either. But he can provide strength to get us through tragedy. It obviously goes into a lot more, but it really helped me to understand that God didn't ignore my prayers, it is just that prayers are there to give strength not miracles.
I am sorry you are hurting. I wish i had some advice or magic answer.
I had a lot of angry at God thoughts (and words) when I was going through my dark IF phase. People made it so much worse, esp Christians because so many of them get holier than thou when it comes to reproduction. I imagine it's a million times worse when you lose a child. (I m/c'd but early enough that almost no one IRL knew so it was different and I don't mean to compare my experience to yours or anyone else's.) I read some books about Christianity and grief - philosophical ones, not self-help, so CS Lewis type stuff. It helped me come to a reconciliation I could understand and eventually accept. Which is, that we aren't promised an easy life as Christians. The point of God isn't to save us from our problems. If anything it's the opposite bc God wants us to be closer to him, and that usually happens in the bad times, not the good. The church in general, IMO, fails people sometimes bc it tells them (or implies) that with enough faith or enough prayers your problems (esp health problems) will be solved/healed. But that's not biblical. So when that doesn't happen it leaves us all wondering WTF. Did God fail me? Did I fail in my faith? Is this faith a load of BS? IMO, what we endure in life would probably happen regardless of our faith. The difference for us who are religious is that we have someone we can lean on spiritually and we have hope that this life is not all for naught. (In fact this life isn't the point - the next one is. This one is only preparation.) I know that doesn't help because leaning on God can feel like a big empty farce when you're in mourning or feeling hopeless. There are a lot of seemingly good, comforting scriptures that just feel like platitudes when you're suffering. It's so hard. I remember thinkng "if I don't feel God speaking to me at some point in this, I'm done because what's the point?" But he did so I'm still here. I guess I would just encourage you to keep praying and asking God to explain this loss to you and comfort you. I think I wrote down somewhere what books I read if you're interested, or maybe others have better recs. There is no good, quick answer, as you know. I wish I had one. It's a journey that I think you have to take yourself and see where it leads. Love you KA and ((((((hugs))))) forever.
Post by NewOrleans on Mar 31, 2015 18:57:06 GMT -5
If you are feeling too awkward or raw or anything to tell them these comments do not provide you comfort, maybe you can simply ask them to pray for your comfort. IDK. That puts "responsibility" back on them (as opposed to making it your "responsibility" to heal, if that makes sense.)
I will stfu here because I am so afraid of spreading pain where I want to spread support.
iammalcolmx, I have been scarce lately here bc of work and did not know the story of your friend. Terrible loss. I am deeply sorry.
I was really angry for awhile, but the more I learned about Morgans disease I eventually came to realize that I may not like it, but she wasn't born because her body couldn't handle it. What was best for Her May not have been what I wanted, but it was what she needed. How you process it is your call, but don't be afraid to tell people to stop talking, but out or to walk away. I did...
I have no words of wisdom really. I just lost a baby (missed miscarriage) when I was 13 weeks. It sucks and it hurts and people close to me that I know and believe are wonderful Christians still said things that I felt were insensitive. I think people are at a loss for words and just try to fill the emptiness with stuff that they think will make someone feel better without really thinking it through (like the God lost his son too comment). None of that makes us feel any better when we're in the process of grieving. And I guess that's my best advice at this point - none of it makes sense right now and everything you're feeling is valid. I think it's totally normal for people to question their faith at times like this and as a PP pointed out, even Peter, whose faith Jesus commended, was shaken.
In my dark times over the last month I found that talking to God brought me the most comfort. Even when I was angry, I would tell Him that. He listens. And slowly, the more I talk to Him, the more Peace and Comfort He brings me. I that's my advice - bring all of your questions to Him and to His Word and He will help guide you through it.
I'm so so sorry for your loss. Your daughter has a beautiful name. In fact, Miriam was our name for this baby we lost if it were a girl.
Faith can be shaken in loss. I understand thatpart. I do bbelieve it is different and God played no part in loss. But, that I was so mad at God, still , through loss after loss after loss (plus more). I still get angry with him, angry with people (irrationally) who get pregnant with ease or have gotten to feel the inner kick. I realize, though, through talking about it, I am not alone. That's what really gets me through. ((Hugs))
I don't post here often but I just have to say that I am so sorry for your loss.
I have no words of wisdom for you. I lost my mother about a month ago and I am having the same doubts/anger kind of feelings. She was so faithful, and I can't help but ask what good did it do her? The only thing that keeps me from denouncing all of it, is the thought that then she wouldn't truly be in a better place. And I have to believe that. She is in a better place.
Hold on to anything you can right now.
People think they are helping, and to be told that god won't give you more than you can handle probably does help someone whose faith is not wavering. But it sure doesn't help if you are doubting and angry.
I don't really know where I'm at right now faith wise, so I hope you don't mind if I reply. I lost my son last year about a month before easter. Easter was the first time I physically refused to go to mass. When my mom asked what mass we were going to I just told her, "I just spent days explaining over and over again to dd that her brother is dead and that dead means he's not coming back. There's not a chance in hell I'm going to celebrate someone else's son coming back from the dead."
I'm not so angry at God anymore but our loss (at 27 weeks due to a placental aburption) has only intensified the questions. This past October I was pressuring myself to come to a conclusion about my faith because I was going to be a godmother. My therapist pointed out that I had my whole life to figure it out. I explained what I was feeling to my friends and they understood. It helped immensely to just give myself time. Your grief is never going to go completely away. It's not something you can push through and neither is your faith journey. I Recommend just giving yourself permission to experience both at your own pace. If praying feels right at the moment pray. If it doesn't, don't worry about it. You are still so fresh and it can be difficult to separate your grief from the other parts of your life. There's a late term loss board on GBCB boards. Feel free to join us.
KA, I don't have words of wisdom as I too am struggling right now. I think (hope) that it is normal and all part of grief. I have questioning God a lot lately after my 3rd miscarriage and secondary IF. I don't think people mean anything by their comments but they hurt just the same. It's ok to feel however you feel and work through it in whatever way feels least painful for you. I'm so sorry for the loss of your sweet girl. Be gentle with yourself. Hugs to you.
My brother and his wife have had two of their children die, both suddenly and the cause is still unclear. The second died a little less than a year ago.
I have continued to go to church and go through the motions. I wasn't really feeling it, but church has always been an important part of my life. I just kept going and participating because that's what I do.
Last week was a turning point for me though. The subject was about how Jesus helps us bear our burdens and I started to feel very angry because I haven't felt that. My brother and his wife are good people and good parents. they didn't deserve to lose even one of their children let alone two. They don't deserve to have to spend their lives wondering if their remaining children will be okay.
I felt a surge of anger and realized my feeling distant has been a result of that anger and feeling that God didn't answer our very fervent prayers. But I also felt that he is there and ready to help me when I am ready.
With that, the anger has started to give way to grief. I have started to feel ready to let God back in my life and let him help me.
I could look up the specific verses we discussed, but I doubt it would be helpful. I think dealing with grief and faith is a highly personal journey. This may have not even been helpful to me even a few months ago.
Continuing to go through the motions did help though as it kept me in a place where I could feel God's love again when I was ready.
I'm sorry people are saying such insensitive things to you. I hope you are able to find comfort and healing.