...what you really want it to be? This is not at all about patriotism,so please don't do the "look at the liberals complaining about America" nonsense. I love this country, but there are lots of things that would make it much better.
The country is so divided and there are really two completely different visions for America, and in the meantime we go back and forth between this party being in party and that one, and not much gets done. I love politics and at the same time am not looking forward to all the crazy that election season brings.
Do you think there is a room for a third party ever having a major stake? Do you think that there will be a time when the parties vision's aren't so divided? Do you think the mean spiritedness is here to stay?
To me, the best hope is that the media will shape-up and start framing things in the way of actual intellectual discussion and fact instead of all the punditry and sensationalism. I feel like nothing can happen until our citizenry is treated like we have half a brain. It's sad that I've learned way more about politics and agendas on both sides of the aisle from a random message board in the last few years then from the actual news whose job it is to disseminate information. Not that they could go into the detail we go into here, but they don't even come close.
Sometimes I feel like it would be better off for everyone if the two factions split and could just run full on with their own agenda and see what happens. Not that that would happen, but a girl could dream. Just let me know, so I can get my mom over the line to the blue side.
You'll have to pardon my early morning pessimism, but no, I do not think the US will ever be what I would like it to be, for a variety of reasons. Politically, I don't like either major party and despise Congress with something bordering on pure hatred, so I feel as though I'm caught and must constantly settle. Douchebag/turd sandwich, etc., etc..
I think the nastiness of politics will remain so long as people respond to it, which they currently do. People love an us-versus-them paradigm, which often precludes informed discussion and intelligent compromise. My only hope is that as younger voters come in, they see that the system is seriously flawed and start to demand change, but even at that, I don't have much hope. Change will come because we are forced into it by emergent situations, and even then we will get half-assed solutions designed to cause the least offense, i.e., accomplish the least amount of change, possible.
I am not American but I have studied US history and now, because of thinks like TK and GBCN, I have interacted with way more Americans. All I can say is that one big difference that I see between the US and Canada is that the US populace NEVER seems happy with their government and they seemed to be trained to be wary of government in general, doubtful of its ability to represent them properly. This doesn't happen in Canada. We don't 'integrally' hate our government. I feel like I have never really studied a point in US history where the population was pleased with the state of affairs. I feel like that leads to a mentality where peopled are always either living in the past "Remember how great it was when so and so was in power" or in the future "I can't wait until so and so is out of office". Nobody is every really content in the 'now'. The country seems so incredibly divided, I know know if a reality exists where the vast majority of people could be truly happy.
Post by heightsyankee on Aug 12, 2012 7:18:09 GMT -5
If I'm being optimistic, I say yes. We will be taken over by the Norwegians and all live happily ever after.
If I am being realistic, no. Our culture, never mind our government, is so fixated on success for the individual that we collectively fail to realize a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. As a country, we are only as strong as the least among us. When Americans can look away from their own mirrors and at the world around them, maybe then we can start to work toward my version of the ideal.
That being said, I think out system of government is wonderful. It's the character of the people who run for government these days that is lacking.
I don't really think things will only get better once there is a 3rd party nor do I think everyone has to stop fighting to have progress. Politicians can cater to their financial influences for only so long before push comes to shove and they have to just stop and do what's needed instead. They just spin it however they need to so the population is ok with it. Look at the health care reform and how the Rs used to be into it. I dunno, I just have this feeling that everyone of those politicians knows what needs to be done regardless of it's associated "ism" and it's just a matter of how long we have to bicker about it before it gets implemented.
No. To be honest I never have. But when I was younger I used to think that I couldn't stop fighting for what I'd like the country to be b/c I thought it was my responsibility as a citizen.
Now I put my personal well being and happiness before any responsibility I feel to my country. What I'm afraid of is that prioritization will mean me leaving the country altogether.
Nope. IIOY said it better than I can. I will only add that the way our primaries work fuel the problem. No one sane (Huntsman) can ever get traction in the primaries. And boring moderates are ignored by the press, because lets talk about crazy cakes Bachmann over there.
You'll have to pardon my early morning pessimism, but no, I do not think the US will ever be what I would like it to be, for a variety of reasons. Politically, I don't like either major party and despise Congress with something bordering on pure hatred, so I feel as though I'm caught and must constantly settle. Douchebag/turd sandwich, etc., etc..
I think the nastiness of politics will remain so long as people respond to it, which they currently do. People love an us-versus-them paradigm, which often precludes informed discussion and intelligent compromise. My only hope is that as younger voters come in, they see that the system is seriously flawed and start to demand change, but even at that, I don't have much hope. Change will come because we are forced into it by emergent situations, and even then we will get half-assed solutions designed to cause the least offense, i.e., accomplish the least amount of change, possible.
Post by karinothing on Aug 12, 2012 8:03:38 GMT -5
No, I do not, but then again what I want this country to be would probably be a nightmare for some of the conservatives on this board. I mean I would like it is Congress could actually work together on something again.
I don't know really think a 3rd (or 4th, 5th, 6th) party will change anything. I think the repubs are broken into two parties now and the 3rd party is what is preventing anything from getting done in Congress (from their stubborn refusal to accept any sort of compromise). I also see plenty of other countries with multiple parties and it isn't like they are ideal utopias, even if it encourages compromise between fractions it doesn't mean that my ideal will be reached.
Post by earlgreyhot on Aug 12, 2012 8:11:11 GMT -5
No...for all the reasons stated above: winner take all mentality with deep divisions, cultural mistrust of the government, sensational media, and, of course the amount of money that goes into campaigns.
I thought about this all day yesterday...where do we go from here? We as a people can't agree on anything except that we're currently doing it wrong. I don't even know where the middle is anymore, or if it even exists. And the problems are complicated and all the options that are on the table seem to complicate things rather than simplify.
Personally, I'm finding it hard to look at Romney, Ryan, or any republican with an open mind as that package comes with a social agenda that I could never, ever vote for. And I know there are conservatives that feel the same way about democrats.
I dislike the Canadian PM yet I don't think the country s going to hell in a hand basket. I think we have enough non-partisan staff and opposition MPs to keep things in check. Except environmentally - we are doomed up here.
I dislike the Canadian PM yet I don't think the country s going to hell in a hand basket. I think we have enough non-partisan staff and opposition MPs to keep things in check. Except environmentally - we are doomed up here.
Hahah, this is exactly what I was going to say. I think he is a total douchebag and I think he has been doing some shady stuff trying to get stuff through but I don't think he can screw things up too badly. The reality for us is that even with the 'Right' in power most of the freedoms I feel strongly about (abortion, gay rights, immigration etc) aren't ever going to change, they are too much a part of what it means to be Canadian.
I know that no country has parties that work together perfectly and some gov'ts will work better together than others.
I feel like not only are the visions so different but that the debates are never done in a way conducive to getting things done, at least not publicly. We've been arguing over the same things for decades and we'll argue over them awhile, then go onto something else, then cycle back. There is often not a solution or goal or compromise, it's at best one party putting the issue on the backburner until they are in power and turn back whatever the other party just did.
It's like being married and being told divorce is not am option and just being two different people wanting two different things, arguing over the same stuff over and not hearing each other, and not wanting to.
I just want to sit the two sides down and say "start with Issue A, work it out, come to some sort of decision about it like adults and finish it and move onto Issue B, and so on. If some new info on Issue A comes up, then put it in and review."
"oh, and use facts that you have available, not 'he said, she said' from Crazy McCrazy down the street or your nutty SIL"
I will be honest, I also don't understand when I see some of my Republican friends post on FB that while they disagree with the candidates about gay right, abortion, women's issues, etc.., that those things take second seat to the economy and so they would vote for someone regardless of their views on those social issues. I don't think I could ever support a candidate who didn't believe in gay marriage and the right to choose (which is really only funny because I am a practising Christian on her way out to her Baptist Church service). I genuinely don't think the Church should have any place in politics, ever.
Post by ChillyMcFreeze on Aug 12, 2012 8:31:41 GMT -5
I'm optimistic that my kind of policy will start coming through as the olds die off. They're holding us back from progress, both financially and politically. Unfortunately, young voters are being indoctrinated into some of those same views, but I suppose that's always been the case.
Honestly, I think the "America fuck yeah" attitude is a lot of the problem. One day we will get a reality check--an attack on our soil--that might just bring both sides together. What we need is just one common goal, but with the parties so divided, that won't happen without a major shake up. I don't wish devastation on my country, but we need a complete reboot to get out of this mess.
Honestly, if I had enough money that I could get legal residency, I would move. No country is perfect, obviously, and every nation has its share of problems, but I'd rather live in a place that even acknowledges that, say, extreme income inequality *is* a problem.
Honestly, I think the "America fuck yeah" attitude is a lot of the problem.
I agree with this. As long as a large portion of the population has it stuck in their heads that America is exceptional and treats any legitimate criticism as being "un-American", we will continue to stick our heads in the sand and ignore that America actually sucks in a lot of ways. Health care is a great example. Most of the rest of the world already has figured it out in one way or another. But apparently for us, looking at other countries as a model of how we could be better is "un-American." We would rather millions of our own people be uninsured in the name of freedom. :-(
I'm optimistic that my kind of policy will start coming through as the olds die off. They're holding us back from progress, both financially and politically. Unfortunately, young voters are being indoctrinated into some of those same views, but I suppose that's always been the case.
Honestly, I think the "America fuck yeah" attitude is a lot of the problem. One day we will get a reality check--an attack on our soil--that might just bring both sides together. What we need is just one common goal, but with the parties so divided, that won't happen without a major shake up. I don't wish devastation on my country, but we need a complete reboot to get out of this mess.
I don't even know if that would bring people together. I think after 9/11 there were about 3 days of togetherness, followed by "This guy isn't a patriot! Where's his flag pin?!!11!"
The biggest obstacle I see is that people are generally idiots (and I feel comfortable including myself in this category about 1/2 the time) and Americans are people.
I don't ever think America will be perfect - I think that's an unrealistic expectation - but I feel like the country has really lost its focus in the past 5...7...years or so, and I don't see it getting back on track any time soon. I was infuriated last year when the budget couldn't get passed. I think the system in Washington is a fucking joke right now. I truly don't think our government has our nation's best interests at heart right now, and it's disheartening.
I don't know what the magic answer is to swing the system back to a more normal functioning system. I don't know if a valid 3rd party is the answer because at this point it would seem like it would be one more group of cooks in the kitchen, you know?
The media doesn't help. This culture of 'soundbite campaigning' is terrible.
I honestly would like to fire every single person in Washington right now and start from scratch. Make everyone re-earn their seat if they want to stay in. But I know that's not realistic because would the majority of the voters even care enough to pay attention to who they are voting in to office?
Flame away, but I think voters should be required to pass a test to vote. Yes, voting is a right, I get it, but you know what? I don't want the ignorant jackass whose only opinion going into the voting booth that Obama is one of them "Mooslims" voting. I don't. I want people who are educated on the candidates and issues and who actually fucking care voting in the leaders of this country because maybe that is what will make a difference.
Honestly, if I had enough money that I could get legal residency, I would move. No country is perfect, obviously, and every nation has its share of problems, but I'd rather live in a place that even acknowledges that, say, extreme income inequality *is* a problem.
I agree. DH and I have researched moving to Europe but haven't been gutsy enough to make the leap.
Honestly, if I had enough money that I could get legal residency, I would move. No country is perfect, obviously, and every nation has its share of problems, but I'd rather live in a place that even acknowledges that, say, extreme income inequality *is* a problem.
I agree. DH and I have researched moving to Europe but haven't been gutsy enough to make the leap.
We seriously looked into it about 6 or 7 years ago. There are a lot of reasons it's not feasible for us now, but with those obstacles removed (and most of them could realistically in about 10-15 years) we'll probably seriously look into it again.
No and honestly, I don't want it to. My ideal is not everyone's ideal and I think this country should always have room for a healthy bit of most people's ideals.
I would 100% move to another country if it was at all possible. Unfortunately, neither of our careers are easily transferable.
It honestly makes me sad because I really love the concept of this country and what it stands for. It's just the reality that sucks. I used to be really gung-ho about it, actually. And then I grew up and I realized that as long as I live here and as long as our political system continues to operate the way it does, I am probably not going to get the things I need for my life. I really wish I could just fucking live my life without having a bunch of creepy mouth breathers tell me how sinful I am and I really fucking wish that just one stupid election could go by without having to fight for my civil rights and I really really wish that there was an end in sight. I mean, not to be too whiny. I know we're not the first group who has struggled and struggled and struggled to get equality. But it sure does suck when it becomes a major battle that you have to spend time, energy, and sometimes money on continuously and when it interferes with your ability to take care of and provide for your family. Other countries are moving on civil rights issues AND the other issues I care most about much more quickly, many of them have been for decades now. I know it's the epitome of whiny first-world problems to wish I was born in Western Europe instead of the US, but I really don't care sometimes. It's just how I feel.
as a minority, the idea of moving to certain other countries isn't appealing...it's kinda like when people wish for the good old days...um, perhaps they were good for you, but not for my peeps!
I will be honest, I also don't understand when I see some of my Republican friends post on FB that while they disagree with the candidates about gay right, abortion, women's issues, etc.., that those things take second seat to the economy and so they would vote for someone regardless of their views on those social issues. I don't think I could ever support a candidate who didn't believe in gay marriage and the right to choose (which is really only funny because I am a practising Christian on her way out to her Baptist Church service). I genuinely don't think the Church should have any place in politics, ever.
I'm Independent, but I know that some of that attitude comes from the need to have to have a stable country before we address social issues. It's like a home. If you're in foreclosure, why are you worrying about anything other than working and paying bills? Get the home out of foreclosure, get financially stable, and then attack the other issues.
These issues explain why I have no clue how to vote. I am fiscally conservative and realize we have GOT to get our country back on track with spending, debt reduction, you name it. We're in deep shit financially. On the other hand. I am socially liberal. I 100% support gay rights, women's issues, and think abortion should stay legal.
So, who do I vote for? I have to look at the #1 problem facing this country which stands to cause the most problems, and I think that is the economy. Yet, I can't get myself to vote for a R. I hate that we still have such civil rights issues in our country, but I can't get onboard with a D either.
Yet unfortunately, there's still not a good, strong 3rd party candidate to vote for where I won't feel, sadly, like I'm wasting a vote. (I hate that) What do I do?